First CB test load results

[SP101GUY]

I shot my first test loads with my cast boolits for my P94 40 cal, GP100 357, SP101 357, and Redhawk 44. After smelting 300# of wheel weights, casting 600 or so great looking boolits, and hand loading them up myself, I was phsyched and ready to go. The results were disheartening.

The results were the same for each gun. I started with the suggested starting load in my Lee Modern Reloading manual, using Red Dot powder. I have 11# of it to use up. Here is all the tech info I can think of.

1. All brass had leading around the mouth on the outside after firing.
2. All brass showed no signs of high pressure.
3.Cylinder throats all had leading with one shot.
4.All three barrels leaded badly with just 5 or 6 rounds through each.
5.All barrels were slugged, boolits sized .001-.0015 over.
6.40 cal.-175g TC on top of 4.5g of red dot. Winchester brass. LLA lube. Very light crimp. Cast from WW water dropped.
7.357 mag-158g RF on top of 5.0g of red dot. Win. brass. LLA lube. Light crimp in groove. Cast from WW water dropped.
8.44 mag.-310g RF on top of 5.3g of red dot. Win. brass. LLA lube. Light crimp in top groove. Cast from WW water dropped.

No boolits were recovered as they went through the 10" round tree I had the target on and disappeared into the timber. My conclusion is this, IS THE RED DOT TOO FAST for these loads? My Lee manual even talks about using red dot on a 30-06 cast boolit. Even though it was a light charge, it gas cut the boolit badly and removed the rifling from the boolit. It looks like this is exactly what I'm getting here.

My boolits are hard. I can't scratch any lead off, I just make a shiny spot. All my dimensions seem right on for fit. Boolits push through the throats with thumb pressure. Should I save the Red Dot for the shotgun and get some H110 or 2400?
Or am I looking in the wrong direction?

AJ

[rwt101]

I don't have a total answer for you, because I am also new to casting. I did find out that my first round of reloads created leading in my barrels. I lowered my powder charge and also went back and cleaned the heck out of my barrels to make sure there was no leftover plating in them from manufactured rounds. I am using Bullseye powder which is fast.

I am sure you will get some good advice from some more experienced members. Don't get discouraged. I would say concentrate on one gun at a time

Bob T

[mpmarty]

Your #1 remark is a very large clue as to one if not all of the problems. Lead on the case mouth (outside) is caused by insufficient bell of the mouth causing shaving as the boolit seats. This in and of itself can lead to undersize boolits. Also, you don't mention whose reloading dies you are using. If you've got one of those woebegone pieces of junk called a factory crimp die for straight wall cases from LEE, junk it! The carbide ring in the mouth sizes the cartridge as it is withdrawn from the die and crushes the boolit in the case making it undersize and leading to your problem also. With Red Dot (one of my favorite powders for light loads in rifle and pistol along with 700X) you need to stay away from maximum loads and even the "starting" loads in some books are too much for cast boolits. If you REALLY think the powder is the problem get some Unique to try and see if that helps H110 is too touchy to experiment with much the same as 296 and 2400 is good to try if you have some but if you're gonna add a powder I'd start with Unique.[smilie=6:

[HORNET]

What lube? OOPS, missed the LLA note. How much LLA?

[rwt101]

Your #1 remark is a very large clue as to one if not all of the problems. Lead on the case mouth (outside) is caused by insufficient bell of the mouth causing shaving as the boolit seats. This in and of itself can lead to undersize boolits. Also, you don't mention whose reloading dies you are using. If you've got one of those woebegone pieces of junk called a factory crimp die for straight wall cases from LEE, junk it! The carbide ring in the mouth sizes the cartridge as it is withdrawn from the die and crushes the boolit in the case making it undersize and leading to your problem also. With Red Dot (one of my favorite powders for light loads in rifle and pistol along with 700X) you need to stay away from maximum loads and even the "starting" loads in some books are too much for cast boolits. If you REALLY think the powder is the problem get some Unique to try and see if that helps H110 is too touchy to experiment with much the same as 296 and 2400 is good to try if you have some but if you're gonna add a powder I'd start with Unique.[smilie=6:

I also found that the loads can be under starting loads. I reload 9mm. I was using Bullseye at 4 to 4.5 grains per load when I had problems. I dropped down to 3.7gr and it words good. Same on my 9x18 Mak. Was at 3 to 3.5 and dropped to 2.7.

Bob T

[rwt101]

What lube?

I think his post said LLA.
Bob T

[SP101GUY]

OK, all dies and equipment are Lee. Crimping was done with the bullet seating die, as I noticed the factory crimp die was hard to withdraw, thinking it might swage the boolit down.

I thought I had a good bell going on the case mouth. The boolits seated easily and no lead was shaved off on seating. Just firing.

LLA was the lube used. All revolvers did the same thing.
The auto just didn't have a cylinder throat to lead. The barrel was the same leading.

There must be one singular thing I am doing, or is happening, as all brass has lead around the lip of the case when fired. I will try a little less crimp and a little more flare when I seat the boolits.

AJ

[Casting Timmy]

I cast wheel weights and water drop too, you might try loading a few with a different powder to eliminate that as a cause. Just because everything sounds about right, makes me wonder if your powder scale was zeroed out before starting.

I'd maybe pull a bullet and double check your powder weight. I've never really used LLA before so I really can't guess anything about that.

I would search the internet for some ways to remove lead. I remember by buddies guns leaded badly from somereally old ammo we shot. I can't remember if hydrogen peroxide or some tranny fluid mixture is what he used to get it out.

I'd just be sure to load a few rounds next time, that way if you still have troubles you don't have to pull very many bullets and the gun won't lead up as bad. I've learned to try new lubes or loads light that the hard way......nothing like pulling 50 bullets or more.

[Calamity Jake]

"6.40 cal.-175g TC on top of 4.5g of red dot. Winchester brass. LLA lube. Very light crimp. Cast from WW water dropped.
7.357 mag-158g RF on top of 5.0g of red dot. Win. brass. LLA lube. Light crimp in groove. Cast from WW water dropped.
8.44 mag.-310g RF on top of 5.3g of red dot. Win. brass. LLA lube. Light crimp in top groove. Cast from WW water dropped."


There is nothing wrong with these loads execpt the WATER DROP!!!
Your next casting session air cool the boolits, use 2 light coats of LLA, one before sizing, one after.

You don't want them that hard with these lite loads.

[SP101GUY]

I have the Lee safety scale that I zeroed according to the instructions. It wasn't the first time using it, as I practiced throwing charges several times when I first got it. I check the zero every time I use it.

I only have the Red Dot to use right now, if my second round of test loads go the same way, I'll buy some different powder to try. I only load a cylinder full for each revolver and 5 for the auto until I find a good load.

I have reloaded shotgun for years. This is my first run at hand gun and rifle reloading. I thought I might as well cast my boolits too. The whole process of smelting, casting, loading, shooting paper and critters is very theraputic, I think.

My .223 reloads with 75g Hornady A-MAX bullets on top of 22g of H335 are a thing of beauty. Man do they shoot well out of my new Ruger SS M77. One shot and it's all over. I have to seat the 75g bullets long, so they are a single shot load. But that works great for me. The cast boolits I still have to work on.

AJ

[SP101GUY]

Jake, I did the one coat LLA, size, then coat again. You think the boolits are too hard for the starting loads? Would that cause all this leading from boolits being too hard?

AJ

[runfiverun]

if you didn't let the waterdropped boolits sit for a couple of weeks they were dead soft.
no matter what your finger said.
i'd stick to aircooling for now and concentrate on one gun like the 357.
the 40 is a pain with cast and you need more experience.
back down the hardness and your velocity to start.

[SP101GUY]

The boolits sat for over a month before they were loaded. I'll have to cast up some more air cooled boolits to try.

AJ

[arcticbreeze]

I also think you started with to many variables. No way to tell. Pick one of your revolvers and start by slugging the bore than take that slug and push it through each cylinder. It should go through without pressure in all 6. If it doesn't than you have a problem that no load experiment will change. If they are fine than you can go on to other variables. The lead around the cases also leads me to believe you are shaving the boolit. I only seen this because of that. That may be your whole problem right there. either way start with one gun, get that one right then move to the next.

If you do not mind please post your measurements instead of just .xxxx over. Dose that mean over bore, over groove, or over nominal caliber dimension?

[SP101GUY]

You will all have to bear with me as I only have a computer at work, my home computer isn't hooked up yet. I should have brought all my hard measurements with me this morning.

I still have all my slugged boolits. The slugged boolit passes through the throats of each gun easily. The sized boolit before loading passes all the throats with just thumb pressure. Trying to go from memory. Slugs measured at bore size.

P94 40 cal-slugged .4005, boolit sized to .4015 in Lee sizer.

SP101 357-slugged .357, boolit sized to .3585 in Lee sizer.

GP100 357-slugged .3575, boolit sized to .3585 in Lee sizer.

Redhawk 44. slugged .4295, boolit shot as cast at .4305.

All rounds chambered with no resistance. All boolits seated with no shaving. All loads were starting loads in the Lee manual. I can only shoot on the weekend, so I take them all with me. I have a new round of test loads for today that I put a little more flare on when seating the boolit and a little less crimp. I'll see how it goes.

AJ

[243winxb]

P94 40 cal-slugged .405, boolit sized to .4015 in Lee sizer. Is this a miss print? I feel you should Air Cool, Add 2% Tin to your Alloy. While Alliant Red Dot is not the best of powder, it should not cause leading. From Lyman >
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[SP101GUY]

Oops, yes it is a misprint. Corrected to .4005

AJ

[Landric]

Leading is caused, IME, at handgun velocities more often by boolits that are too hard rather than too soft. I also suggest air cooling and seeing how that goes.

[Echo]

I didn't see anywhere that you had measured the chamber throats. Boolits should be sized at or +.001 over throat size.
And +1 on boolits being too hard. Melt the lla off, then put in the oven @ 250*, leave for 30 minutes, turn off, and let them cool at their leisure. Will take them back to WW BHN...

[lwknight]

SP101, You did say that every one of your guns had lead issues. That in itself is an alloy flag unless you are loading really hot stuff and I deduce that you are not.
30 years ago I knew nothing of casting other than what I read from a few books and there was no internet forums where we could pool experiences and info, I never had any leading issues with any guns.
I have to agree with an earlier post, that a small amount of tin is needed to bind the antimony to the lead and toughen the lead. Lyman stated that a very long time ago.

I believe that with your WWs alloy, your antimony content could be anywhere from 3 to 7 percent with very little tin. Old WWs were as much as 8 percent and most are about 3 percent. I venture a guess that adding 2 to 3 percent tin will cure your pure lead surrounding pure antimony crystals problem.

Being able to scratch a shiny spot is another sign of too little tin.

[Ekalb2000]

On my SBH, the brl slugs at 431, throats 432. My water droped WW aged over a week mic at 433. I do not size. I have LLA and pan lubed. Unique and 2400 powders. I got more accuracy out of the 2400. Zero leading in my guns.
As for the Lee factory crimp die. Keep it. Knock out the carbide ring at the mouth so it does not size your perfect boolit after crimp.
I think if you stop sizing your boolit and knock out that carbide ring, load about 12 rounds, and go from that starting point. Remember, keep it simple.

Oh yeah this is with the Lee 310.

[44man]

That is my guess, the alloy is off. The boolits might feel hard but just how hard are they. Throat, chamber and barrel leading is a problem with fast powders unless the alloy is good and the boolits very hard.
Lead on the brass is because the brass has not expanded enough or pressure rise was too fast and the brass shrunk too fast. The indication is that the boolit was deformed, tried to blow lead out of the gap, lead was blown back to the brass and the boolit skidded the rifling. Even the short distance between the brass and start of the throats can fill with lead if the soft boolit is punched too hard, this makes the boolit expand into that space. That lead can come back onto the brass.
This is not melted lead but mechanical lead removal from pressure. Gas cut lead in the bore might actually melt some, nobody really knows.
Your alloy and hardness really is off and you are ruining the boolit.

[SP101GUY]

The rain kept me from any more shooting over the weekend, so it will have to wait till next. I cast up some air dropped boolits so they can age for the next test loads.

I did measure all the cylinder throats before, and measured again to make sure, and they all measure .0005 to .001 over boolit size.

If i don't size the boolits, they will run .002-.003 over bore. And either right at or
.001 over throat size. When I size them, they pass thru very easily with little force required. Should I cast another round of air dropped and not size at all?

Makes me wish I had a basement to shoot in, I think the garage would be too loud for the neighbors.

Thanks for all the help.

AJ

[HORNET]

You cast boolits being .001/.002 over groove diameter is NOT a problem. Try seating some unsized in a few cases and see if they'll chamber. If that works, try shooting some unsized. Leading is more common from undersized than oversized. Note: seat and crimp in separate steps, O.K.?

[runfiverun]

if they'll chamber don't size. first thing i'd try.

[SP101GUY]

I'll cast some more up and not size, they should be ready to go for the weekend after Thanksgiving. Thanks guys.

AJ

[SP101GUY]

I finally got around to shooting the next round of test loads. I didn't want to change too many variables, so I still used the water dropped boolits.

Boolits were not sized at all, just lubed with LLA and loaded.

Same charges used.

Seated and crimped in separate stages.

The result, 70% of the leading went away. Hardly any lead at all around the case mouth on all guns. Most brass had no lead on them. Cylinder throats had 5-10% of the previous leading. Barrels only had leading in the forcing cones, not down the barrel.

The next round of loads have the air cooled boolits. Maybe that will be the trick. Fingers crossed.

AJ