Custom Gunsmith

[44MAG#1]

I have a question.
I have a gun at a very, very well known custom guy that said he would have my little job done in one month.
I called at the end of one month and he hadn't even started on it. He said he would call when it was ready to be shipped but now 2 weeks into the second month I still haven't heard anything.
I realize things happen but is it customary for the one man shop guys to be so inaccurate in their delivery times?
Looks like they would build some cushion time into their quoted times so if something did happen they wouldn't be so far off.
I've got other guns to shoot and play with but this is kinda odd to me for a business.
I am no business man but I believe I would at least have cushion time involved in quoted delivery times due to ocassional tool breakage, Colds, Flu, Ocassional bouts with laziness, and the honeydo projects.
How many have had this problem? Maybe I am not alone in this.

[nascarkent]

They are never in a hurry, And they don't like to get nagged , about when it,s gonna be done. Your best bet is to sit tight.[smilie=b:

[jhrosier]

Most of the really good gunsmiths have long lead times. A year for a custom gun is not unusual.
The real professionals are usually good at keeping you updated about the progress of your project.
I have run into several very good gunsmiths who are very poor businessmen.
It just seems that the creativity that makes a good gunsmith doesn't always come with good organizational skills.
I guess that we need extra patience to be good customers.;-)

Jack

[targetshootr]

As long as he's well-known, relax and bide your time. If he's someone new then you might wanna worry. Don't ask how I know.

[44MAG#1]

To be a good customer how much does one need to put up with I guess was my actual question.. I don't want to tick off a man that has my gun 2000 miles away. But if the quoted time was one month how many months should I wait before I start getting concerned?
I am just wondering as I have not had much experience with one man shop situations.
The only people I have done business with have been shops where one guy was the head and had others doing the work at his direction so no matter what the work went on.
Just give me some guidance.
What would be a good time frame?

Thanks

[ole 5 hole group]

I would be looking for it sometime in the 4th month - hopefully the 1st part of that month.

[monadnock#5]

Your question is much more complicated than it would appear.

I have two custom gunsmiths (that I'm aware of) locally. One specializes in target rifles. Palma, High Power, across the course... you name it. When I received my Anschutz .22 target rifle, it wasn't drilled and tapped for a scope mount. For what I paid for it, it should have come with an Austrian female coach. Anyway, I took it down to Larry, and because I needed it for a match that weekend, he got it done in less than a week. Don't take a handgun to him though. They aren't what he wants to work on, and will put them aside pronto if a target rifle comes through the door.

My friend Ray on the other hand loves to work on handguns, but has never taken less than six months to make any repair I've taken him. He used to have a client who would bring him dip stick jobs such as, "I want you to turn this junk M/N 44 carbine into a Swiss army knife. No, I don't care what you think about that. My customer has already paid for the job so just do it.Let me know when it's done, and I'll bring you 4 more just like it!!" This guy demanded a one week turn around, and got it.

To sum up: The smiths I know about will tell you one month up front to get the job in the door. Be happy if it takes less than 6 months, but be prepared for up to a year.

If you have multiple smiths in your area, find out what each one genuinely enjoys working on, and only send that type of arm to him.

If you want a quick turn around, let him know up front that's what you need and you're willing to pay the freight. People in the service industry know what "rush job" means.

These days, if I want it done, I do it myself when I can. If I'm in a true break down situation, I'll go to a smith. Discretional modifications get put in the six month review stack. If I can't remember six months later what I wanted done, or why I figured I needed it, it don't get done. It's a decision that gets easier to make as the years go by.:D

[JSH]

As I was told several years ago
good
quick
cheap

You get to pick two and only two.

I will say I have waited over a year on gun. BUT, when I got it, it was NOT what I had ordered/wanted. Ring around the rosy on that thing................. Long story short, I got the gun not to my liking but for less than you could buy one, traed it off and broke even after packing it around for longer than I wanted.
Good luck to you and have some patience with the fellow, good things come to those who wait.
If you think that is a bit over due, look at the GB mould threads. Last one i was in on was over a year and got way less than what was ordered, design wise.
jeff

[Bass Ackward]

The real killer is parts, ESPECIALLY on a small job. And this is the worst time of the year for them because everybody waited until season and wants it NOW.

You can easily spend hours trying to locate something. And that time adds up quickly which most customers just aren't willing to pay for on that size of job. So you put out a request to someplace like Numrich and wait for them to fill the order to minimize your time (cost).

Another possibility is that guys trade parts if they need them, which involves yet another person that feels none of the heat or pressure that your customer might generate. And you have to have something that he wants before you get what you need.

In the end, you get desensitized. Some guys won't take small jobs (repairs regardless of the time of the year) anymore unless they sold the product and feel a responsibility to you.

The gun business is one of the toughest to make money. The real time killer that generates more customer complaints in the business IS the dreaded small job. I am not saying that it is right, just what happens.

[waksupi]

Having done a fair amount of gun building, and smithing, I can give you some of the most common reasons for a job being delayed.
Yes, the 'smith may be able to do the job in the stated time. BUT! If they need to order any parts, the wait time on their end can seem like forever. If you are in a real hurry to have a job done, it helps for YOU to have purchased the parts, and send them along with the project. Make sure they are the RIGHT parts, as the gunsmith can't wave a magic wand, and make them correct, in most instances. This is the biggest delay in finishing a project. The part may be a simple screw, a reamer, anything you may need, most likely won't be in the shop, and you won't find any shop that DOES have everything.
Second biggest slow up on a job, is bugging the guy doing the work. You can figure to add another day or two onto a job, for each time I'm called and asked, "Is it done yet"?

[bisleyfan41]

I don't know exactly what you mean by a "little job", so I can't say for sure. But most of the truly BIG smiths out there aren't getting any guns turned around in one months time; it doesn't matter how small the job. If he's one of the truly BIG smiths, he'll get it to you as quick as he can. I'd recommend to leave him alone and wait for him to call you. I know that ain't what you want to hear, but there's no "speeding up" quality work. Bug him and he's not gonna do you any favors with the timeline.

[docone31]

I agree with most of the responses, except for my personal experience.
I got two recievers from a smith. They were mausers. All I wanted to do was for him to chamber two barrels I provided, which were short chambered, set the headspace, and dovetail the barrel for a front sight. I provided the sights, triggers, and I was going to do the stock work.
I told my fair bride how well this combination would perform, .243 Win., and how gentle that cartridge was in comparison.
Well, the months turned into years. We went to the shop everyother week, and were not grumpy. Finally, we just got the rifles.
I had to bring them to another gunsmith, who lived just up the street, and he did them. One week!
He was an unknown, and the first gunsmith was an international known smith. He specialized in .45. We did not bend his arm, give him an hard time, and we brought donuts for him and the crew at the shop.
He cost us an arm and leg. I could have bought an inexpensive Shiloh Sharps for what he did that had to be redone. I had him engrave DOC, and JULIE on each one. He spelled DOC wrong.
I found a good smith after paying a small fortune for junk.
Sad, it turned a potential positive experience into a those rifles we cannot touch. They just sit there.
Maybe one day.

[iron mule]

44mag i'm not trying to take up for the smith or make an excuse for him // but let me tell you about what happened with a gun that a guy had brought me to repair it was a lever action and needed a new lifter some how the origanal was broken when disasembeled for cleaning he insisted on factory parts for replace ment so i ordered them from the fac had an email from them to confirm parts are shipped after 4 weeks of calling because parts had not arrived i found out that the parts were on back order and it would be a min of 4 months before available// during all this i kept the customer informed when he found out the perts would be another 4 months min to delivery he no longer needed them from factory i ordered from my usual supplier and had them in 3 days he picked the rifle up a couple days later and was satisfied // if he would not have been o insistent on fac parts his 7 week wait could have been a week and half at most/// but i did stay in contact with him about what was happening little different from your situation
mule

[Ctkelly]

I've had several experiences with custom gunsmiths, good and bad. My bad was a m-14. I was told a couple months for a M-14 rifle to be assembled. Took closer to a year n half. Finally he passed it off to another gunsmith to finish the job and send it back to me. Came back looking like you know what. I'll give him credit though, there were some legitimate issues that came up and he had to do extra work. But I ended up selling the gun without ever firing a round.

Ken Kubin assembled a polish akms underfolder for me. Doesn't communicate very well and I pretty much left him alone. Notified me when it was shipping and I have no complaints at all with his work. Gun is amazingly accurate for a ak-47 type weapon. An example of someone that doesn't keep you in the loop, but this may be because he is busy doing work on the guns there at the shop.

Others have been very up front and accurate with me. Hamilton bowen quoted me about a month to ream my S&W 610 to 10mm magnum and thats about what it took. John Harrison did two different 1911's for me, one a few mods, the other was almost a complete re-work. 6 months and a year on the other.

My lost project was having a Rem 700 CDL in 264 winchester mag reamed out a little farther in the throat so you could seat the long 6.5mm bullets like they were intended. First off, the majority of big smiths didnt even want to take on this "little" project. Finally Mike burns took on the project along with some glass bedding and other little items while the gun was there. He was slower than anticipated, but he communicated very well. When I sent an email he would respond when he had the chance and explain the situation.

Just all depends on what kind of smith you have yourself tied up with. Some communicate with you very well, others are better at just doing gunsmith work and not dealing with the customer so much. I will say one thing, Hamilton Bowen never ceases to amaze me with his willingness to communicate. Sun-Sat and at all hours of the day he may reply to you via email. A great guy who does a great job with wheel guns.

[Potsy]

Also, bear in mind, if we are into the second month, that means you took it to him in early October (bow season). We are now in the middle of muzzleloader and then have another month and a half of rifle/late bow.
If he hunts, you may have to wait on him to tag out.
If you're talking about the 'smith I think your talking about, he hunts all over; but don't worry, I took a gun to him and he had it done in a timely manner. You'll get it back, in fine shape.
'Course I knew it'd be a bad idea to take a gun to a successful 'smith in the FALL!

[Tazman1602]

I have a question.
I have a gun at a very, very well known custom guy that said he would have my little job done in one month.
I called at the end of one month and he hadn't even started on it. He said he would call when it was ready to be shipped but now 2 weeks into the second month I still haven't heard anything.
I realize things happen but is it customary for the one man shop guys to be so inaccurate in their delivery times?
Looks like they would build some cushion time into their quoted times so if something did happen they wouldn't be so far off.
I've got other guns to shoot and play with but this is kinda odd to me for a business.
I am no business man but I believe I would at least have cushion time involved in quoted delivery times due to ocassional tool breakage, Colds, Flu, Ocassional bouts with laziness, and the honeydo projects.
How many have had this problem? Maybe I am not alone in this.

44 I don't tolerate that treatment from anyone I'm going to give my hard earned money to. I've had businesses and a gunshop in particular. If I promised someone a job done on a date it was either done or I was on the phone explaining to them WHY it wasn't done! No one is irreplaceble, no one is that good, it's all customer service. I have never, ever had a customer that I called up to tell them I was STILL running behind on their project yell at me (well maybe one or two but darn few....) and the vast majority thanked me for keeping in contact and letting them know what was going on.

It's not rocket science, it's simple customer service which is sadly lacking in this country today. You deserve a call, you are entitled to be kept up to date on how your job is going, it's only common courtesy and it doesn't take five minutes out of your day.

Go ahead guys, I've read the responses here so blast away at me, I just believe in taking care of my clients and it's why they still call me even though liability drove me out of the gun business...

Art

[358wcf]

I've had both good and bad experiences with 'smiths, about like most other shooters, I suppose.
I do, however, want to share the very best experience I've ever had with a custom gunsmith just last year.
Most of you will recognize the name HAMILTON BOWEN- he is a craftsman, gentleman, and a businessman as well. If you have a question, you can speak with him personally on the phone when you call. He uses email efficiently and effectively to communicate details. No questions left unanswered.
His work on revolvers is simply SUPERB! No doubt the very best work possible.
My big job for him was to "convert a S&W Model 27 into a top-end 44Special S&W".
Simple enough to say, but this is a big job in my opinion. No swapping out cylinder and barrel, but reboring both and building a new revolver just exactly as I asked.
The distinctive checkering on the topstrap and barrel rib give the gun away as a Model 27, but in no other way can you tell this revolver did not leave the factory as a 44Special, and a high grade one at that.
Accuracy is outstanding, as you would expect from a revolver of this quality--
Time??? From start to finish, he did the job in 6 weeks. He advised it might take about 6 months. I was prepared to wait as much as two years to own a Bowen custom conversion.
Was there a downside? Not really. I will gladly pay the price to own a revolver done by the master. His work commands a premium price, which I gladly pay to get the job done.
Simply put, THE VERY BEST WORK, by a craftsman, who also delivers on time.

Chuck 358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[Tom W.]

I sent my Ruger #1 to a Yankee to have it re-chambered. After eight months, he calls and says "Gee, what a pretty rifle, but I can't do the work, as I've never worked on one of these."

This man makes custom barrels for Encores, and his ad says he can re-chamber. Well, he was nice enough to refund all of my money plus my shipping and insurance charges, and did send the rifle on his dime to another gunsmith of my choosing, HK Custom Guns who did the work in about a week or so, and mailed the rifle back to my door.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive had many custom handguns done by just about all of the custom gunsmiths. Ive gotten to the point that when i send in a gun i call it black holeing it. When they say a year figure on 3 and then you might get it back ahead of time. Ive had a couple projects that went almost 4 years. I have NEVER got one back in the time frame the builder quoted.

[EDK]

I have used several gunsmiths of varying fame and settled on Jim Stroh (ALPHA PRECISION.) Mr. Stroh takes a deposit and assigns you a place in line and then contacts you several weeks before he will be working on your pistol. He will contact you in case of problems. I can recommend him without reservation.

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

[Bucks Owin]

Seems I recall reading a quip from famous barrel maker, the late Harry Pope, that went something like "If you must know when your gun will be finished, the answer is now." [smilie=f:

[jh45gun]

Sounds like some Gunsmiths are like Taxidermist they never get the work done when quoted either. Guess I am lucky my gunsmith does excellent work and normally is right on the money when he states how long it will take. Longest was 3 months but that was fine with me as it was worth the wait for him to rebarrel a Remington Rolling Block No 5 for me.

[44MAG#1]

Well it has been 2 months and still no gun. Wonder how much longer it will be? Maybe he is doing this for my own good. If I don't have it I won't be spending money on ammo for it.
I try to look on the bright side.

[.45Cole]

44mag#1- Just wait it out. I enjoy pocket watches and took a pretty messed up one to a jeweler for the first time. He said about a month, six or seven months later I got it back, perfectly adjusted. I guess that some things are like art, can't ask Van Gogh how long it will take to crank out another winner. If the end result is worth the time, then you will have to get use to waiting. I have taken 2 other watches to the same jeweler since, he just calls me when he is done, whenever.

PS I saw a sign in a gunsmith's shop that explains well the relationships a tradesperson of any type understands:


Price, time, and quality--pick two.

[Char-Gar]

If he said a month, wait six and then call him to inquire about the status of the work. If he says another month, wait another six. If he doesn't deliver then, pick up the gun and weight you options.

My experiences with gunsmiths are:

1. There are far more incompetent ones than competent ones.
2. It is the rare bird who delivers the work on times as promised.
3. Some of the big names have earned their reputation by delivering good work.
4. Some of the big names used to deliver good work, but have let quality go down the tubes as a greater volumn of work came in.
5. My experience with gunsmiths is the reson I work on my own guns these days. Most gun work is not rocket science and I will take the time and effort to do it right. I am not into "customizing" guns unless there is a real world need to do so. Most custom work is fueled by vanity and little else.

[snowwolfe]

I for one don't play silly games with gunsmiths and their waiting games. If they say it will be ready in a month then it should be ready unless they take the time to call you before the deadline and explain why.
A few years ago I ordered a custom 375 H&H (accompanied with a hefty deposit) which was promised in 8 months. Eight months came and went, then 9, 10, and finally 14. All the while emailing back and forth and receiving empty promises. Finally I demanded my deposit back and since the builder knew I was vocal on the AR forum he returned the deposit. About 4 months after this other people lost all there money as the company folded and deposits went with them.
Next time I had a rifle built was promised a delivery date. Added two months to the date and told the gent either my rifle or deposit would be in my hands by the 2 month extension. And if he didnt like it, dont take the order. He took the order and finished on time and the rifle turned out wonderful.
Guess my point to all this long winded typing is do not accept this BS. If its promised it should be ready, or they should initialize contact in advance and explain why. There are many quality smiths out there who do not have name recognition and do superb work.
Most gunsmiths do not know squat about operating a business and this kills them as far as expanding. All they need to do is be honest and upfront with delivery times, however long they are, and deliver what they promised when they promised.

[44MAG#1]

Well it has been lacking 1 week being 3 months on a job that was quoted as 1 month and still no gun.
I have learned a very valuable lesson with this.

[StarMetal]

And why is this? Take the automotive repair business. Let's go with the dealers. They have two books for repairs. One is the time and labor, the other is the actual how to do it. Let's say you bring in your Chevy for a transmission replacement. They look up in the time/labor book how long it takes and give you the costs. They rarely ever make you wait months. About the only time delay would be if they didn't have a part they thought they have. Same with doctors. They will tell you how much the operation costs and how long it take. What's with gunsmiths? Do they think they are Gods? Gunsmiths are the reason I do my own work. That and the costs.

Joe

[waksupi]

Reality check. I'm building a rifle, and have been working on it every day. I estimated I would have it done by today. I now believe I will have another two weeks before it is fully finished. So, even when you do your own work, the scheduling doesn't always work out.

[alamogunr]

I have used several gunsmiths of varying fame and settled on Jim Stroh (ALPHA PRECISION.) Mr. Stroh takes a deposit and assigns you a place in line and then contacts you several weeks before he will be working on your pistol. He will contact you in case of problems. I can recommend him without reservation.

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

+1. Mr Stroh converted a S&W Model 28 to .44 Spec a few years ago. It involved reboring the cylinder and bbl. Also shortening the barrel and installing front and rear sights. As said above, he contacted me when the barrel rebore took longer than he anticipated. Since he sent it out for the work, he had little control over that part of the job.

I also had a Ruger converted by David Clements. He took about a month or two longer than quoted(I seem to remember a quote just under a year) to complete the job. This was not too long after he moved to VA, so he may not have been quite as busy as he apparently is now. Well worth the wait.

I'm getting to an age now where these long lead times work against me. I don't buy green bananas either.

John
W.TN

[500bfrman]

so basically its okay for gunsmiths to lie to you. hey its your fault for taking it to him in hunting season. :roll:

[44MAG#1]

500bfrman

I will answer your question with a few questions. Did he not know hunting season was coming up? Did he not know he was going hunting? Did he not know to allow some cushion time when quoting his delivery time?
What do you think?

[500bfrman]

44mag I am in agreement with you. My reply was tongue in cheek. Of course I don't think it is acceptable for anyone to lie to any of us. Yet it seems with most replies here nearly everyone thinks it is acceptable. I don't care if it was christmas day, what he says should be what he says. Now if he wants to let you take it home when he's done and then you do the same with payment as he did with the work. I doubt you get to say I'll pay you in a month, then two, then three. He probably won't let you have it till you pay.

[bob208]

i have done gun work 1911's and muzzloading rifles. i have done reloading, i have worked on street rods. i can tell you one thing most people come in with the thought that you are setting around waiting on them to bring you something.

[500bfrman]

I have no problem with the idea that people are busy and that they are the best in the world the thing is tell me the truth. If you don't have any idea. tell me you don't have any idea. IF you think its going to be 12 months tell me its going to be 24 then I'll be happy when I get it early. Like dan at mountain molds. He has 10-12 week lead time, and I got 3 molds in a week. what if he said a week and it was 12. I would have been a little unhappy. Instead we are all happy.

[waksupi]

I reached the point, if someone pressed for a finish date, I tell them to look elsewhere. I can do it good, or I can do it fast. The good part takes time.

[44MAG#1]

I want to make perfectly clear I did not press this guy for a finish date. I simply asked when he though it would be done and he said "by the end of October".
He could have said the end of Nov, the end of Dec. etc.. I would have understood.
Just be up front with me. I am a big boy and can take it.
Again I did not press him for a time. Just asked him is all.
He supplied the answer.

[Super38]

I was wondering, what work supposed to be done and on what type of gun?

Most of the answers here are BS. If I want something done. I want to have an expected date of return or at least a call.

If you are having a gun hand built without machinces I can understand a reasonable length of time delay but months and months of waiting without any acknowledgement, get real - this is still a business. If the gun is being done as a piece of art (engraving) and you gave no design, understandable.

Although there are many exception to any rule. If you are in a service business and don't appreciate your customers - you're going to STARVE!

Once again, without knowledge of the work being done, it's much more difficult to give estimates.

44MAG#1 -- If you don't like being jerked around, pick up the gun (or have them return it ) and go elsewhere. If you didn't agree on a date or tell him/her the time frame you needed it, well then.... Giving a gun to a smith during or near huntung season is not the best time, unless (s)he only deals with handguns.

By the way, I've been bitten by the bad gunsmith bug - in many ways.


Good luck

Super38

[bisleyfan41]

I have no problem with the idea that people are busy and that they are the best in the world the thing is tell me the truth.

OK, here you want the truth.


IF you think its going to be 12 months tell me its going to be 24.

And here you want him to lie.

????????????????????

You may not have to put up with it from a smaller, half-a$$ed smith. But with the truly great ones, like it or lump it. They probably have over a years worth of work to do anyway and would just as soon not have a pain in the butt whiner bugging 'em every week making the backlog even longer. Remember, every time a smith answers the phone, the tools are still and the work stops. You gotta realize, even though you're the customer, the world still doesn't revolve around you.

[Bucks Owin]

ok, here you want the truth.



And here you want him to lie.

????????????????????

you may not have to put up with it from a smaller, half-a$$ed smith. But with the truly great ones, like it or lump it. They probably have over a years worth of work to do anyway and would just as soon not have a pain in the butt whiner bugging 'em every week making the backlog even longer. Remember, every time a smith answers the phone, the tools are still and the work stops. You gotta realize, even though you're the customer, the world still doesn't revolve around you.

1+ ;-)