What would General Custer do?

[PappyD]

Fairly new shooter to black powder. Just started loading 45colt with bp. I have read many of the suggestions about lube and basically use a beeswax/crisco/canola oil concoction and pan lube the cast bullets I use.

I have tried a search for this topic but have not found much. I'm sure some of you history buffs might shed some light for me.

Before smokeless powder was available, how many shots could a soldier be expected to fire before his weapon would be so dirty that it would be inoperable?
In a Sharps 45-70? In the Colt, SSA, 45? Was there some sort of lube recipe that we lost? What about Custer's last stand with soldiers pinned down, very little water, and the only way out was to fight to the end? Were there any documented failures?

My experience with my Uberti 45 SA is that I can get maybe 30 shots or so before it gets so dirty as to not function. I usually don't wait that long to touch it up enough to continue.

Just wondering what the troops did back in the day!

[NickSS]

This is an interesting question and I have a lot of knowledge on this subject. First the Cavalry trooper of that day usually was equipped with 60 to 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 to 24 rounds of revolver ammo. The revolver was used for mounted combat when the saber was not. The usual cavalry trooper fought with the carbine when dismounted. Per records Custer's Troops carried 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 rounds of pistol ammo on their horses. Additional ammo was carried on pack animals which reached Reno and Bentine but not Custer even though he sent a trumpeter to have them brought to him. The pack train was turned back by the Indians before it could get to Custer. I have shot upwards of 100 rounds from a trapdoor rifle with black powder without cleaning. The weapon still functioned but accuracy was degraded somewhat. As most soldiers of that era were not very good shots, it probably made little difference. It is also doubtful if the sholdiers lasted long enough to shoot all their ammo away. It was reported by Reno and Bentine that indians were shooting at them with rifles taken from Custers troops. As for a revolver it depends on the revolver. I have shot up to 100 rounds from a Colt SAA clone loaded with black powder. The gun was very dirty and a bit hard to cock and the groups kind of looked like buckshot at 25 yards but most would have hit a man. Besides in a battle if your weapon became unusable there were usually a lot of them laying around to be picked up and used.

[jgraham1]

You also had to remember that very few of the fights required the Troopers to fire all their rounds. Shooting a 100 rounds in a lightweight carbine with full loads, or even the lighter carbine loads, makes one very sore. Many engagements were "hit and run" operations with the indians.

Jerry

[PappyD]

This is an interesting question and I have a lot of knowledge on this subject. First the Cavalry trooper of that day usually was equipped with 60 to 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 to 24 rounds of revolver ammo. The revolver was used for mounted combat when the saber was not. The usual cavalry trooper fought with the carbine when dismounted. Per records Custer's Troops carried 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 rounds of pistol ammo on their horses. Additional ammo was carried on pack animals which reached Reno and Bentine but not Custer even though he sent a trumpeter to have them brought to him. The pack train was turned back by the Indians before it could get to Custer. I have shot upwards of 100 rounds from a trapdoor rifle with black powder without cleaning. The weapon still functioned but accuracy was degraded somewhat. As most soldiers of that era were not very good shots, it probably made little difference. It is also doubtful if the sholdiers lasted long enough to shoot all their ammo away. It was reported by Reno and Bentine that indians were shooting at them with rifles taken from Custers troops. As for a revolver it depends on the revolver. I have shot up to 100 rounds from a Colt SAA clone loaded with black powder. The gun was very dirty and a bit hard to cock and the groups kind of looked like buckshot at 25 yards but most would have hit a man. Besides in a battle if your weapon became unusable there were usually a lot of them laying around to be picked up and used.

Wow...100 rounds? What is your lube secret? Another shooter friend of mine has a squeeze tube of crisco that he uses liberally on the cylinder. Just a squeeze dab on the bullet side of the cylinder. Seems to work but the gun is a mess.

Thanks for the backgrounder on cav troopers. Interesting stuff!

[Mike Venturino]

This is one of the Custer Battlefield revolvers that U.S. Firearms started putting out a few years back. I was lucky enough to get serial #1876.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/8-27-05all064LargeWebview.jpg

This is the first of four consecutive 12 shot groups fired with it at 25 yards with it mounted in a pistol machine rest. No cleaning between groups. The last 12 shot group was better than this one. Loads were BP only in .45 Schofield cases. There was no binding of the revolver at the end of 48 rounds. I'd have to dig into my records to see exactly what the load consisted of. (By the way, the revolver actually hits point of aim at 25 yards but I don't pay any attention to where it prints when in the machine rest.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/Raton06089LargeWebview.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Were there any documented failures?
Yes, there were. The most glaring one was that Custer failed to lead his troops with intelligence and sound reasoning.

As for individual reports of weapon failures, nobody lived long enough to submit any...
CM

[iron mule]

pappy sent you a pm on my lube
mule

[405]

Little Bighorn historians need to pipe up on this one. Somewhere in my CRS, semi-senilic memory I think I read of some after the battle inspection evidence or other "finds" on the LBH site suggesting at least a few of the 45-70s suffered case head separation during the battle. Like I said maybe just CRS tho :)

[docone31]

I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.
There was an attempt to produce copper ammo. The cartridges had massive amounts of case head seperation during battle.
I am just glad I wasn't there for all that.

[doubs43]

The .45-70 cases of the day were made of copper or a high copper content metal. It was found that only a certain number of rounds could be safely fired per minute without cases sticking and the rims of the cases being torn through by the extractor. In the heat of the battle, that number was exceeded and there are reports of numerous broken pocket knives being found along side the bodies of the troopers; broken as they tried to pry the stuck cases from the chambers of their rifles.

Indian accounts of the battle indicate that Custer may have been one of the very first to be killed and that resulted in confusion among the officers and troopers who failed to establish a cohesive defensive line. Many were broken into small groups and destroyed piecemeal.

On that day the Indians chose the ground and had better leaders. But, it was a pyrrhic victory for the Indians as there could only be one outcome to the war.

Some of the best evidence was found a number of years back after a brush fire burned over much of the battlefield. A lot of new discoveries were made in the way of artifacts that helped to explain the events of the day.

[Don McDowell]

Part of the problem was the carbine load itself. The lower pressure generated by the 55 gr load tends to foul pretty heavy, then you add the oppressive heat and the dirt and crud that most likely had settled into the bullet lube and bullets, there's a disaster about to happen. Keep in mind the ammo those troopers carried had been in their belts for about 3 weeks on the trail. The main ingredient of the military lube is bayberry wax.
The only cohesive line from Custers command was Keoghs, most everybody else was ran down and shot like dogs. Custer was a freakin idiot that made some horrificly horrible decisions that got 286 good men killed including his brothers and a favored nephew. The accounts from the Indians later say that Custers part in the battle probably lasted about 30 minutes.
If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.

[jgraham1]

Put what doubs43 and Don McDowell said about the cartridge itself and add in the idiot that Custer was and it can only spell disaster for everyone involved.

Someday I will travel there and to Gettysburg just to look at them.

[PappyD]

Part of the problem was the carbine load itself. The lower pressure generated by the 55 gr load tends to foul pretty heavy, then you add the oppressive heat and the dirt and crud that most likely had settled into the bullet lube and bullets, there's a disaster about to happen. Keep in mind the ammo those troopers carried had been in their belts for about 3 weeks on the trail. The main ingredient of the military lube is bayberry wax.
The only cohesive line from Custers command was Keoghs, most everybody else was ran down and shot like dogs. Custer was a freakin idiot that made some horrificly horrible decisions that got 286 good men killed including his brothers and a favored nephew. The accounts from the Indians later say that Custers part in the battle probably lasted about 30 minutes.
If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.

This may be a little off topic but I'm the OP so.....Can you recommend a good read or two on the battle? (Little Bighorn battle)

I have been to Gettysburg twice and have pretty good knowledge of the events there. Last trip I sat with my 3 sons, (14, 16, 19) on the front slope of Little Round Top until closing time. It was almost creepy looking down on Devil's Den. My oldest said there was some "powerful mojo" working in that place.

Thanks for the great info!

[Mike Venturino]

Probably a good overview of both Custer and the battle would be Son of The Morning Star. Its not perfect. There are a few mistakes but its a good read. The author is a talented writer.

As for the 7th's guns, this is most likely the load they were issued for their .45 Colts. Note the date and powder charge on the box.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/12-26-04all005LargeWebview.jpg

MLV

[Don McDowell]

You know the only "good" read I can recommend is the archeoligist report compiled after the fire. I have it, but can't think of the name of it at the moment. But it sort of drolls on in places, but the maps and the "ballistic" evidence are really fascinating.
Most of the books on the battle are slanted pretty heavily either pro Custer (most of them) or anti Custer. So you have to take grain of salt with what's inside. Amazon and Alibris are good places to search up books on Custer, and the little bighorn.
Some of the more telling accounts of the battle can be picked up in snipits from various books about the region at the time, alot of the Indian accounts are probably the more accurate of what has been written afterwards.
You can get the reprints of the Army field manual for the Springfield from various sources, and it has the recipe for the Military bullet lube .

[semtav]

Another very good book is Sixty Six Years in Custer's Shadow
by Henry Weibert. He grew up on the ground where Reno fought. He debunked a lot of the earlier theories on how the battle was fought.
Hard to find at a reasonable price but well worth the effort to obtain if you are a real Custer Buff.

[semtav]

Little Bighorn historians need to pipe up on this one. Somewhere in my CRS, semi-senilic memory I think I read of some after the battle inspection evidence or other "finds" on the LBH site suggesting at least a few of the 45-70s suffered case head separation during the battle. Like I said maybe just CRS tho :)

I think a lot of the Case head separation was from extracting stuck cases. in many places that a case head was found, a broken knife was also found. And some were found with a piece of rawhide in the separated case. ( a technique the Indians used to extract the case)

[shooter575]

There are a bunch of us here that shoot BP cartridge in rapid fire team events. Anyway in my trapdoor I have shot 70 rounds with out wiping.I am using 55 gr ff Goex w/COW filler and the Lee HB boolit and just a tad of compression when seating.No drop tube compression die blow tube or any of that fancy stuff. My lube is BW and olive oil I have a winter and summer mix.
That said we are shooting offhand at hanging breakable targets at 50 or 100 yd usualy.
3-4" @ 50 yd & 6-8" @ 100 yd. So these are not long range paper punching loads.
But we do have a blast

[shooter575]

BTW I can clean up the barrel with 3-4 patches,no leading

[mooman76]

The history channel had a show covering this and other battles where they would actually go to the sites and search for clues and to what happened and compare to the writings. They traced the spent cartridges with metal detectors to help piece it together. It might have been called Battlefield Detective or something like that.

[jgraham1]

mooman76 -

I recall the show you mentioned. I believe that you are correct with the name of the show too. It was very interesting, but what they could not determine, by followning spent cartridges that had the same balistic marks, was whether the Trooper was still using the rifle or if an indian picked it up and used it. All in all, it was very interesting to say the least.

Jerry

[hydraulic]

HELL, I WAS THERE! Well, almost. The fire went through the battlefield in 1983 and the archaological investigation took place in 1984 & 85. Doug Scott, regional archaeologist for the National Park Service in Lincoln was in charge. I was hired in '86 and worked there through '89 as a summer seasonal. Dr. Scott's book, Archaeological Insights into The Custer Battle -An Assesment of the 1984 Field Season, destroyed a great many myths, particularly the one about the soldiers shells sticking in their carbines. On page 81 he says, "Hedren (Paul Hedron, Fort Union, USPS) 1973 has made an exhaustive study of cartridge-extraction problems at the Little Bighorn fight. He examined the available monument and private collections and found that 3 cases out of 1,625 had had extraction problems. Including Hedren's data, the rate of extractor failure amounts to less than 0.35 percent of all known examples of 45/55 cases."
Actually, there were more instances of cartridge case failure among the Indians than among the soldiers.
Let me recommend a couple of good books. Centennial Campaign by John Gray and Custer's Luck by Stewart are the best. These, and Scott's book, can be purchased by writing : Custer Battlefield Historical and Museum Association, P.O. Box 902, Hardin, MT 59034-0902.

[madcaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AyEQRtbWkk
Turn up the speakers!:holysheep

[semtav]

Actually, there were more instances of cartridge case failure among the Indians than among the soldiers.


And many of those were probably from using 45-70 cartridges in their 50 cal guns when they started running out of their own ammunition.

[Marlin Hunter]

Put what doubs43 and Don McDowell said about the cartridge itself and add in the idiot that Custer was and it can only spell disaster for everyone involved.

Someday I will travel there and to Gettysburg just to look at them.


Ive been to Andersonville in Georgia. If you get a chance to watch the movie made by Turner Broadcasting, it is well worth seeing.

[twidget]

A new book on the Battle of the Little Bighorn is A Terrible Glory by James Donovan. I'm not any kind of an expert on the battle, but this one is a good read. I visited the battlefield in 2004 an 2009 and found it very interesting. My great-grandfather served under Custer in Texas after the Civil War so there is somewhat of a personal connection.

If you are 62 years old or more be sure to get one of these passes http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm before you go. It's hard to get a good feel for the battle without visiting the site. There is a very nice visitor center and a self-guided tour. It's well worth the trip.

[NickSS]

I visited the Little Big Horn battle field several times and once during the archeological digs. In addition I have read three books on the findings of those digs and there were only a very small percentage of cartridge case failures among the evidence found. In addition, It was the ammo that the army was producing which led to the adaption of the 1873 trapdoor rifle as it was the only weapon that handled that ammo when the gun was very dirty from firing. I can attest to the accuracy of that by some tests I ran shooting straight black powder in Sharps, Rolling Blocks and trapdoors. I fired up to 100 rounds without cleaning in the trapdoor but could not phicially load the other two actions because of fouling build up in front of the chamber. The trapdoor was the only rifle to make 100 rounds and it would have goon longer. My lube recipee in bees wax and crisco 40-40 with 20% Olive oil.

[KCSO]

Accoding to Ned Roberts he loaded 44-40 with Curtis and Harvey powder and could shoot 125 rounds in a day with out cleaning and the last shot was as good as the first. hhe used bees wax and Bear oil for a lube. I still use this and with the 45-70 and Elephant Powder i could get 15-17 shots without expanding the group too much but after that the gun will foul out and by shot 25 the bullets are going sideways. If you use Swiss powder you can shoot about 10 more rounds before accuracy is gone. In 45 Colt in a Colt style revolver WITH the bushing 25 rounds or more are possible. In a Merwin and Hulbert 8 shots and the cylinder is tight and in an original Scofield we were able to shoot just 12 shots before the cylinder stuck. Of course this is dependent on weather, powder used and how fast you shoot. Military target practice in the 1880's called for no more than 15 shots total in a day and these were fired in 5 round strings with cleaning ever 5 shots.

[Major Tom]

www.friendslittlebighorn.com
This site contains more info about the LBH gathered just recently. From firearms used, where they were used, soldiers burials, battle damage to skeletons and more.

[zampilot]

'"An Assesment of the 1984 Field Season, destroyed a great many myths, particularly the one about the soldiers shells sticking in their carbines"

I'd wonder how many carbines were examined after the battle to state this ? I'd guess not many if any, since they were not 'around' any longer.

[hydraulic]

Zam: Obviously, the carbines were not examined. But if there were instances of cartridges being pried out of the chamber with hunting knives, pocket knives or other sharp objects, there would be evidence on some of the many thousands of empty cartridge cases found on the battlefield. There were a few, but only a small percentage of the total. There were many .45-55 cartridge cases found that had been split by being fired in a .50-70, most likely by Indians using Sharps coversions provided by the government by treaty for hunting. Another myth is the one about the Indians hiding behind the bushes and launching hundreds of arrows in a high arc to fall among the soldiers. There were a total of eight metal arrowheads found by the archeologists. Some have postulated that the arrows were all picked up by early visitors to the battlefield. However, there are no known examples of battlefield arrows in any museum or private collection. If there were hundreds or thousands of arrows on the battlefield, surely there would be at least one, somewhere. The battle was a gun fight in which the Indians, in great numbers, were able to get in close, on foot, and use their Henrys, Winchesters, Sharps, Spencers and over 40 other types of firearms (cartridge cases found in the Indian positons) to rain bullets down on the soldiers. A couple of other instances of no arrows: Of the 50 wounded from Reno Hill, none had arrow wounds, nor had the many killed in that fight. Also, on June 17, one week before the Custer fight, General Crook fought the same Indians at the Battle of the Rosebud a few mile to the east. No arrow wounds in that fight either. Reno survived because the Indians couldn't get close enough to use their short range weapons against the superior firepower of the soldiers. The damage done was mostly by using .45-55's captured from Custer. Most of the bullets found in the Reno position were .45-55's.

[waksupi]

The Sioux used the tactic, in battles before the Greasy Grass, to engage the soldiers, and try to get them to fire three or more shots in rapid fire. That would generally tie up the guns, and they could make an attack, killing the soldiers, and capturing the weapons. The used the same tactic with Custer. Crazy Horse stated they would capture the guns, drive the casings out from the muzzle end, and use them as long as they had ammo. If the Indians would have been better armed, and with sufficient ammo, the results would have been much different on the plains.

[hydraulic]

Wakksupi:

I was unaware that there had ever been an interview with Crazy Horse. Can you tell us where it is printed?

[454PB]

This will make you cringe....

I was born and raised in Billings, which is about 70 miles from the Custer Battlefield.

When I was a kid in the middle to late 50's, my uncle gave me a handfull of large lead slugs he recovered form the battlefield.

Even back then, I was facinated by melting down lead, and that was their fate.

[405]

My opinion only.... The absolute facts about what happened to any of the firearms/ammo in the fog of battle will never be known. What I do know is that..... on the ground.... on that battlefield and replaying the scene in the mind's eye will give a very unique perspective.... impossible to glean from even the best recount, movie or documentary. For anyone interested in such things- well advised to go there and study it in person. I for one if placed in Custer's boots or any of his troop's at the time, I think one look at the adversary just prior to the engagement.... I'd say to myself, "Oh !#*!, this is not going to turn out well!"

[waksupi]

Wakksupi:

I was unaware that there had ever been an interview with Crazy Horse. Can you tell us where it is printed?

Get "Crazy Horse", by Mari Sandoz. She used the research of Eleanor Hinman, Bad Bull Heart's papers, national and army archives to put together the story. Crazy Horse and many other of the Indians talked extensively to the soldiers after they were put on the reservations. Much of the information was forwarded in letters to DC.

[Mike Venturino]

SemTav: The .45-55 was the U.S. Army's carbine loading of the .45-70. In those days they were actually called .45 Government. The original loading used a 405 grain swaged bullet of 1-11 tin to lead over 70 grains of blackpowder. In the seven pound carbines troopers complained of excessive recoil. So the load was reduced to 55 grains with the same bullet. Space in the case was taken up with a cardboard tube. Some of the cases recovered by archaeologists at the battlefield digs still had the cardboard tubes in place. Both loadings used the same 2.10 inch case.

Sgt. John Ryan of M Troop, 7th Cavalry carried a heavy barreled Sharps rifle with telescope to the battle. He said he traded an infantry Sgt. out of some of the 70 grain loads for his rifle so he could have a little more range. M Troop was with Reno/Benteen and so Ryan and his rifle survived the fight.

The famous 500 grain bullet infantry load didn't come about until 1881.

MLV

[405]

I sometimes use "CRS" date markers as ways to remember bits of history. An easy way in this example would be: the LBH battle was a "big event" and happened at the centennial date of 1876. The Sandy Hook trials took place in 1879 leading to the adoption of the 500 gr 45-70 (govt) a couple of years later. Doesn't ensure photographic recall of history but saves a lot of time spent digging back thru material for the more common details. :)

[stephen perry]

I'm watching Custer with Erroll Flynn right now. All the US calvary in the West couldn't have saved Custer. He died for a purpose to give Terry time. Custer was one the many dead heroes of the West.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[montana_charlie]

He died for a purpose to give Terry time. Custer was one the many dead heroes of the West.
Custer was too egotistical for his own good, and too 'heroic' for the good of his troops.
His 'audacious leadership' brought him promotion during the Civil War, where both sides were on more or less equal footing...and using identical tactics. After placing his forces in untenable positions, an abundance of grim determination to stay alive enabled his men to hand him 'victories' that made him appear as a great tactician.

When faced with tactics that were not taught at West Point, performed by fighters that Custer deemed unintelligent and cowardly, he 'heroically' bit off more than his men could chew.

CM

[semtav]

SemTav: The .45-55 was the U.S. Army's carbine loading of the .45-70. In those days they were actually called .45 Government. The original loading used a 405 grain swaged bullet of 1-11 tin to lead over 70 grains of blackpowder. In the seven pound carbines troopers complained of excessive recoil. So the load was reduced to 55 grains with the same bullet. Space in the case was taken up with a cardboard tube. Some of the cases recovered by archaeologists at the battlefield digs still had the cardboard tubes in place. Both loadings used the same 2.10 inch case.

Sgt. John Ryan of M Troop, 7th Cavalry carried a heavy barreled Sharps rifle with telescope to the battle. He said he traded an infantry Sgt. out of some of the 70 grain loads for his rifle so he could have a little more range. M Troop was with Reno/Benteen and so Ryan and his rifle survived the fight.

The famous 500 grain bullet infantry load didn't come about until 1881.

MLV

Mike


Sorry I deleted my post while you were replying. I did a quick google and realized what he was referring to.

to go back to what Mike is referring to, I posted I'd never heard of them carrying a 45-55. all the references I'd seen were for the 45-70. After I posted, I google the info, then deleted my post.

In reference to hydraulic referring to them as a 45-55, is that proper terminology.

[Mike Venturino]

SemTav: Whereabouts are you in Montana? I'm near Livingston.

MLV

[semtav]

I live in that town where they hold the Quigley.
My daughter shoots in it, but I'm always gone working that time of year.
The current head of it is my daughters mentor and the reason I got bit pretty bad by the bug this year, so I do take in the small informal shoots.

[hydraulic]

Waksupi:

Though all Nebraskans, myself included, love our most famous author, Mari's books on the Custer fight and Crazy Horse, all of which I own, are rated at the low end for credibility by most battlefield historians. I am still curious to know who the people were who talked to Crazy Horse. Valentine McGillicuddy, agent at Pine Ridge, tended Crazy Horse after William Gentles bayoneted him, and he says he knew Crazy Horse but doesn't mention having talked to him. Lt. Philo Clark was in charge of the Indian camps at Fort Robinson, but, to the best of my knowledge, he doesn't record any conversations with Crazy Horse.

[waksupi]

Waksupi:

Though all Nebraskans, myself included, love our most famous author, Mari's books on the Custer fight and Crazy Horse, all of which I own, are rated at the low end for credibility by most battlefield historians. I am still curious to know who the people were who talked to Crazy Horse. Valentine McGillicuddy, agent at Pine Ridge, tended Crazy Horse after William Gentles bayoneted him, and he says he knew Crazy Horse but doesn't mention having talked to him. Lt. Philo Clark was in charge of the Indian camps at Fort Robinson, but, to the best of my knowledge, he doesn't record any conversations with Crazy Horse.


There is an extensive bibliography in the back of the book, giving primary resources. Needless to say, I'm not goiung to take time to look into all of them!

[vulture47]

I've never loaded for a trapdoor, never owned one so I don't know how it would function with my .45-70 load. I used to own an Italian made sharps rifle. If I can remember right my load was somewhere around 65 grains of cartridge black powder followed by a lube cookie made from bees wax and any natural fat I had on hand. Below the black powder I would stick a few grains of Unique, can't remember the exact amount but it wasn't much. I think it's refered to a duplex load. They shot extremely well, and I could shoot all day with very little fouling, none back around the action. Hey, just my two cents worth, wish I still had the rifle. Now I shoot 1858 Remington revolvers converted to .45 Colt. So far I haven't tried a black powder load, just a smokeless load of the same pressures of black powder.

[robertbank]

I do hope we are not using Hollywood as a source document for opinions as to who did what to who...how and why. One of the facinations of history is that it is usually written by the victors with their own slant on events both sucessful and failure.

Take Care

Bob

[semtav]

Do any of you history buffs know what pistols were used by the troops at that time? Specifically Gibbon's troops while patrolling the north side of the Yellowstone?

[Mike Venturino]

Gibbons troops were infantry. They weren't issued handguns. Standard issue handgun for cavalry was the Colt SAA .45 with 7 1/2" barrel.

[semtav]

Ok.
I'm trying to put the timeline together and see if the Rolling Block pistol in 50 Remington or any other pistol in that caliber was carried by anyone in Gibbons outfit. I thought they were out for a brief period about then.

[Larry Gibson]

Gibbons troops were infantry. They weren't issued handguns. Standard issue handgun for cavalry was the Colt SAA .45 with 7 1/2" barrel.

Mike

The Montana Column was made up of infantry and cavalry of which the coloumn was commanded by Colonal Gibbon. Major James S. Brisban commanded 4 companies (F, G, H and I) of the Second Cavalry in the Montana Column under Colonal Gibbons. The calvalrymen were armed with M1873 carbines and M1873 Colts as you mention.

Larry Gibson

[semtav]

Reason I asked, is because I recently found out I grew up where Gibbon camped in the general area across from the mouth of Rosebud Creek. When I was young, I found what appears to be a big pistol cartridge in the side of one of our irrigation ditches. I just put it in my collection of old shells ( 45-70, 45-75,45-110 etc) I'd found in the hills around our place.

I'd looked it up years ago in my Cartridges of the World book and always thought it was a 50 Remington Navy.
Now I'm digging on the internet and all the dimensions are right except the length.
I get:

Rim .640
Base .560
Neck ..540

which is right, but the length is:

Case 1.05
OAL 1.625

Which doesn't compute with the dimensions I find for the 50 rem @ .858 and 1.288

[oksmle]

semtav .... Let's complicate the issue a bit more.... I'm measuring the last original, unfired cartridge belonging to my Remington Navy .50 cal Rolling block & it measures:
Rim: .643
Base: .565
Neck: .533
Case: .890
OAL: 1.275

I believe that what you have is actually what you think it is. I have seen several original rounds that were for the .50 Army/Navy that were all different dimensions. Close, but different. Both of my Army pistols have a longer chamber than my Navy pistol does. I cut 50/70 brass down to fit the Navy & shoot it in all three.

[waksupi]

An overlooked fact, the winning side did most of the work with dogwood arrows, and osage and ash bows.

[semtav]

thanks OK
Now to just tie that to Gibbon !!!!


Nice Champ. I went to Spartan in about 80. Have a lot of friends in that area that fly. My old champ is still down there too. (1136E)

[oksmle]

"My old champ is still down there too. (1136E) "

Yep. It's up in Miami, OK, & as far as I know is still flyin' holes in the sky ....

[Mike Venturino]

Larry: Thanks for the reminder. I was only focusing on Gibbon's infantry.

Semtav: I don't know about Gibbon's attached cavalry but some troops of the 7th turned in the .50 Remington handguns when they were issued Colt SAAs in 1874. Officers could also buy their handguns from the U.S. Army if they wished. As I remember the archaeologists identified at least four S&W American Model #3s as having been at the Little Bighorn but of course we don't know which side they were used on. The army bought 1000 of those in 1871.

Anyway, your cartridge collection sounds interesting.
MLV

[semtav]

I remember the exact spot I found the 50 Rem shell 40 yrs ago, and I'm thinking, the next time that field gets plowed up, I'm gonna go out there with a metal detector.

I think one of my old classmates recently located the spot where the three men from Gibbon's company were killed by Indians while hunting game here..

Finding the spot they were buried no doubt will be a lot harder.

[Dobetown]

The History channel thing that showed a 73 carbine and a winchester lever being compared only commented about rate of fire. It didn't mention effective range or accuracy.
A lot of troopers wore wool shirts.
The carbines may have been carried in boots or slings which can rub the finish off shigts rather quickley. the sights are pretty fine any way.
The midrange with 45/55 and the battle sight is almost 2 feet. Any one who has shot on a range on a hot summer day knows how you eyes mist and sights blur.
to shoot a running or jumping Indians would been quite a trick.
The comment about not finding metal arrow heads was interesting, Some could have been rusted away after a few years, and the Indian did have time to salcage the battle field. I was thinking they found some with the remains. Then I figured out when they moved the remains of the Fetterman fight to the Big Horn cemetary they found arow heads. Of course people have been picking up artifacts ever since the battle.

[hydraulic]

One of the interesting finds during the '84 dig was the recovery of a backstrap from an 1873 Colt revolver. This created a sensation because this is one of the parts of a Colt that has the serial number stamped on it. It was believed that research might reveal the soldier who lost it. It turned out that it was from a revolver belonging to a soldier from the 2nd Cavalry who was with Gibbon. He had been killed by Indians while out hunting while Gibbon was up on the Yellowstone before Custer arrived. What might have happened was that the Indian who took his revolver carried it to the Little Bighorn and it came apart during the battle. Dick Harmon (firearms expert at the dig) told me that Colt issued screwdrivers with their Colt '73's because the screws shoot loose. I find this to be true with my single action from 1896. MLV might authenticate this statement. Anyway, here it this Indian warrior banging away with his captured Colt, unaware that the screws had loosened, and the backstrap fell off, most likely at a most inappropriate time.

[Mike Venturino]

Colt SAAs will rain screws if they are not tightened periodically or some sort of lock-tite used on them.

MLV

[montana_charlie]

Anyway, here it this Indian warrior banging away with his captured Colt, unaware that the screws had loosened, and the backstrap fell off, most likely at a most inappropriate time.
Yeah...and he probably said 'American made junk!' and pulled out his Beretta...ya think?

[1874Sharps]

I remember seeing a program several years ago on the Little Bighorn Custer fight. Some historian/archaeologists took metal detectors and dug up a number of spent 45-70 cartridges from the battlefield. Then, by forensic analysis of the cases and having in their possesion several of the Springfields known to have been used in the battle, they mapped the locations of where the rifles had been fired. By doing this they were able to understand the flow of the battle and exact positions of the troopers. This was particularly elucidating because it provided hard evidence of the battle rather than human recollection and testimony. By the way, I believe Custer was carrying a Brit revolver.

[hydraulic]

1874; Doug Scott and Richard Fox were the archeologists. Cartridge cases from the battlefield were taken to Lincoln, Ne. where the National Park Service Midwest Division is headquartered and studied by Dick Harmon, firearms specialist at the fight, who used a Nebraska Highway Patrol comparison microscope to classify the cases according to the firing pin signature. In some cases it was possible to trace the movement of one of the combatants by following the distribution of one particular cartridge case around the battlefield. This illustrates the importance of not disturbing artifacts found in an historical site.

[hydraulic]

PS: Thanks, Mike.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I was not there so have to rely on documents... But Custer was who he was and willing to sacrafice his command for his own personal achievement. The Army will always have that type. Imagine a tanker rolling into a fight without the main gun... ignoring the testimony of the scouts and refusing to listen to the sound advice of other officers & NCO's & Choosing to ignore equipment problems.
Custer had access to Gatlin Guns & small cannon. Custer chose to dismiss the reports of the Scouts. Custer was aragent and disregarded sound advise from his officers & NCO's. Custer placed his divided command into a situation where the known Trapdoor problem would cause certain failure. Sadly Custer was not the only casualty.
This senario happend before Custer & many times since. To bad Kings no longer do battle one on one.

[Poisonslinger]

I am by no means expert - but I have heard from past accounts that the black powder of the past burned a lot more moist than even the best powders of today. I shoot Swiss exclusively for matches, but will burn others on occasion for plinking. Although I think the other powders are better today than in the recent past, there is a difference in the fouling in my barrels when I shoot Elephant or Goex.

As a question here, if the powder did burn differently in the late 1800’s, do you think that it may have been why hard-powder fouling was not as much an issue on the battlefield – or due to the number of shots heating the barrel it negated the obvious advantage of moister burning BP?

I have been to the Custer BF several times, including once to watch the Indians re-enact the fight (that was the best time). The MC at the performance said that as Custer charged (out in front of course) he took a round in the chest as he crossed the river below Medicine Coolie. His men gathered him up, alive but mortally wounded, and retreated to the hill. Whereas, as mentioned previously, all semblance of organized order and fight was abandoned. The Indian version is interesting and makes the most sense to me – I just wish that we (white people) would have paid more attention to and believed the few stories that were told when the participants were alive. I have heard that many of the participants were shy about talking about the fight due to the thought that they would be persecuted for being there.

All this is very interesting.

Rick Patton
Cody, Wy

[Larry Gibson]

Colt SAAs will rain screws if they are not tightened periodically or some sort of lock-tite used on them.

MLV

Mike

Ain't that the truth and so do Ruger and all the clone SSAs.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Mike

Ain't that the truth and so do Ruger and all the clone SSAs.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I know about the Colts, never owned the clones, but my old three screw Ruger 45 Colt sure never loosens the screws. They came with blue Loc-tite on them from the factory. Got in 1972. Put lots of round through it and lots of hot rounds also. My cylinder pin doesn't snap out of place either. I have a Colt ejector rod housing on it which being steel is lots heavier then the factory aluminum and even it's screw hasn't backed out yet.

I might add the Colt cap n ball clones I have owned loosened their screws also.

Joe

[hydraulic]

Concerning the "known trapdoor problem" allegedly causing malfunctions during the Custer fight; this is the only battle where this supposedly happened. In the Battle of the Rosebud on June 17, the Twin Buttes fight, the Hat Creek fight, the Wolf Mountain fight in '77, and all other battles in which the Army used the 1873 Springfield there is no mention of problems with the carbine or the rifle. The archeological evidence supports the postion that the Springfield had negligable extraction failures.

[Mike Venturino]

If you haven't ridden on horseback that country over near the Custer Battlefield you simply can't understand how impossible it would have been to get wheeled gun carriages through it. Especially considering the gatlings were pulled by "condemed" cavalry horses.

My wife and I participated in the 1986 re-ride.
MLV

[JD Yellowhammer]

My experience with my Uberti 45 SA is that I can get maybe 30 shots or so before it gets so dirty as to not function. I usually don't wait that long to touch it up enough to continue.


This is an interesting discussion. I'm a member of "Friends of the Little Bighorn Battlefield" and I recommend that group to anyone who wants to help study and preserve the battlefield and the story. http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/
I also recommend all of Doug Scott's books if you want to seperate the actual forensic evidence from the century of spin written by people with pro and anti Custer agendas. (biblio below).

But the reason I'm commenting here is because throughout this discussion, no one has mentioned (probably the most important factor in running black powder) the Boolit!

I shoot cowboy action, SASS and NCOWS, sometimes with black powder, most of the time smokeless. And any of the "Soot Lords" who shoot bp will tell you that with the right bullet you can shoot an entire match (at least 100 shots out of 2 pistols and a rifle) without any wiping or cleaning.

If you use a boolit with a large grease groove (or two) that's made to carry a grain or more lube, chances are good that you won't have to worry about crudding up your barrel. The issue is keeping the bp residue soft and moist. Taking .44 WCF as an example, two good bullet designs are the Big Lube Mav Dutchman and the old and venerable Lyman 427098 (I'll try to attach an illustration I made for a different forum).

I'll have to go through my copies of the books below to see if there are any good illustrations of the bullets used by Custer and the Indians. I've seen them before but I can't remember what they looked like, concerning grease grooves and ability to carry lube through a hot revolver or rifle barrel. But at any rate, that's got to be one of the most critical issues concerning fouling and the combatants ability to keep shootin' without wipin' or cleanin'.

Here's a good start for scientific analysis of the LBH Battle:
Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn
By Douglas Scott, et al
This is the bible of the Custer Battlefield archeological digs from 1984-1985 and the number one selling Custer Battlefield archeological book sold on our website. Douglas Scott and his team each provide a detailed report from their specialized field that include: forensics, morphology, ballistics, and more.
=============
Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle
By Richard Fox
=============
They Died With Custer: Soldiers' Bones from the Battle of the Little Bighorn
By Douglas Scott
=============
Archaeological Insights Into the Custer Battle
By Douglas Scott, et al.
First book released about the archeological digs at Little Bighorn -- this covers the 1984 dig only. What this book offers over all the others is the large slip-in map; one side spots every soldier marker on the battlefield along with its assigned number; the opposite side marks every artifact's location found on the battlefield.

[calaloo]

Semtav, a bit off the subject (and an extremely interesting subject it is). If you are going to search the site with a metal detector you should know that plowing actually reduces the depth of detection. As metal lies in the ground undisturbed a "halo" is created by metal leeching into the soil surrounding the object producing, in effect, A larger target.

[Larry Gibson]

If you haven't ridden on horseback that country over near the Custer Battlefield you simply can't understand how impossible it would have been to get wheeled gun carriages through it. Especially considering the gatlings were pulled by "condemed" cavalry horses.

My wife and I participated in the 1986 re-ride.
MLV

Mike

Don't you know they could have simply gone down the highway or taken the Forest Service roads? I actually have had a guy tell me that in all sincerity......

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Captain Michaelis was an Ordnance officer assigned to Terry's department and accompanied the Terry/Gibbons column. He inspected the remaining arms (M8173 carbines and M1873 SAAs of the 7th Cavalry. It may come as shock to many but the 7th was not "wiped out" at the LBH. Only about 1/3rd were. Of the remaining 400+ carbines that CPT Michaelis inspected from the Reno/Benteen contingent only one example was found to have a shell stuck in the chamber. We must remember that these M1873s saw heavy use on the 25th and 26th of June, 1876.

From CPT Michaelis reports regarding that one carbine with the stuck case; "I send this report with a carbine received from CPT Moylan, 7th Cavalry, which became unserviceable by the blowing or tearing off of the head of the cartridge in the action of June 25th-26th, 1876, on the Little Big Horn. This is the only piece i obtained with a shell actually in it. I carefully extracted the cartridge a few days ago and found evidence of verdigris; the shell further shows that it must have had some very hard usage before insertion."

Considering all this are we to believe that only the Custer contingent had the bad ammo and the bad M1873s if there actually were that many? We also must ponder how the Indians managed to fire thousands of the captured 45-55 rounds at the Reno/Benteen contingent on the 25th and 26th out of all those "jammed" M1873s they took off Custer's troops. Perhaps they had their own ordnance officers and personnel who solved the problem and reloaded the ammo into suitable WW or R-P cases? Not likely.....

I also have conducted numerous tests comparing the "firepower" of the M1873 Carbine vs the lever action repeaters of the day. Given the length of the engagement 2-3 hours the sustained fire capability is far superior to that of the lever action. This particularly comes into play when one considers the shooting style and shooting skill of the plains Indian. If you think they were as good as many CASS shooters you are sadly mistaken. However, the skills of the average 7th Cavalry trooper in this case were probably not much better. My point is that the troopers, if trained, had a superior weapon and they also had a lot more ammunition than did most any of the Indians. How many rounds of ammo do you think the average warrior toted around in his LBE or saddlebags? Most of the Indians had only what was in their rifle or a small pouch. The soldiers had 50 rounds on them plus another 100 in their saddle bags. The soldiers carbines did not jam and the soldiers were not out gunned. The soldiers were actually pretty much untrained and lost tactical stability, broke and ran and the Indians took advantage.

One must ask; if the Indians were so superiorly armed and used such superior tactics how was it that the same Indians on the same day against pretty much the same types of soldiers did not wipe out the Reno/Benteen contingent? The Indians now had 250+ M873s and thousand of rounds of ammo they had taken from Custer’s contingent. If the Indians were so superior then why did they not wipe out all of the 7th? The answer is there and it has little to do with jammed M1873 carbines.

Larry Gibson

[Mike Venturino]

Larry: Something else not often considered is the factor of "targets." The Indians had, at least in the early part of the fight, massed formations of soldiers to shoot at. Even later for one target they had one man in every four trying to hold onto four horses. All they had to do with him was get a bullet anywhere into one of the horses and it would go wild, causing him to loose the others.

Conversely, the soldiers only had a quick shot at an Indian as he popped up from behind a sagebrush. Then he ducked down, moved fast to another spot, and popped up again for a quick shot or two. They would have been extremely difficult to hit. Furthermore the Indian garb made them harder to see, whereas the soldiers were (mostly) dressed in dark blue.

MLV

[hydraulic]

Mike is right about the impossiblity of getting Gatling guns up the Rosebud and down Reno Creek. On June 10 Reno was sent on a scout to find the trail of the Indians. He went up the Tongue, crossed over to the Rosebud and ascended that stream and found the enormous Indian camp that had recently been evacuated. A constant source of delay was the Gatling gun he had with him. On the 18th he reached the Yellowstone and reported that he had to leave the Gatling behind. It had turned over and they couldn't get it out of a ditch. Troops were sent out to retrieve it. On the 17th he had been about 60 miles north of where Crook was having his fight with the Sioux and Cheyennes. (No stuck cartridges). His report of the huge Indian camp on the Rosebud, and the great lodge pole trail up that stream made it obvious to Terry, Gibbon and Custer that there were a great many Indians in the area. They also knew that the camp was a golden opportunity, and if they hesitated, the camp would disperse and scatter and there would be no chance of capturing them and returning them to the reservation. Custer's plan of attack was a good one. Reno would cross the LBH and attack the camp which would hold the warriors while the women packed up a fled downstream. Custer would ride arround the camp, cross the LBH, capture the women & kids, and the warriors would scatter, only to come in and surrender at the agencies where the women & kids were being held. Only problem? No one knew how well the Indians had managed to arm themselves in the ten years since the Fetterman masacre.

[Viclav]

Captain Michaelis may have found only one carbine with a ruptured case, but is there not an eye-witness account of the fight at Reno's position that makes particular mention of (Captain?) French moving among the men, clearing jammed carbines with the rod from his 50/70 infantry rifle? Is it also not possible that so few ruptured cases were found at Custer's position because troopers, in the midst of their desperate but apparently brief (30 minutes?) fight were not successful clearing that one case from their guns before becoming casualties? The carbines would have been picked up by indians who had more leisure to clear and use them against Reno.

Victor

"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

All valid points and the reasons there was a "mutual" stand off for some time before the loss of tactical stability by the troopers. From further reports it appears the marksmanship of the troopers was probably as poor at that of the Indians. However, the evidence is there in both forensic and eye witness that the Indians had a healthy respect of the M1873s. They did maintain their distance for a considerable time. We must remember that a lot of these Indians were survivors of the Hay field and Wagon box fights. It was there they learned a healthy respect for not charging blindly against soldiers with TDs. If we look further at how the Indian's individual tactics evolved subsequent to those fights we see a continuing useage of tactics as you describe. These were evidenced in the earlier engagements and later engagements after the LBH battle.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Viclav

Yes there is such a report. However, that was late in the Reno/Benteen fight after some pretty hard useage. Also the report is really vague as to how many times and how many M1873 carbines were involved. There is no mention of stuck cases being a major problem in any of the officers reports. We must also remmber those same soldiers (remainder of the 7th, Brisban's 2 cavalry and the cavalry with Crook) continued on the campaign with the same issued M1873 carbines and the very same ammunition. The point is there is little fact to support any amount of jamming or stuck cartridge cases that would have been a factor in the battle. Thanks for the comments, it is always enjoyable to discuss the various aspects with those interested.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

Well this is an excellent thread with much useful information.

I can add that some breechloaders and repeaters were issued with a chamber, and I suppose throat, cleaning tool to be used in thefield when fouling began to build up enough to hamper loading. The tool was shaped like a chambering reamer only made from bronze rather than steel.
water was poured through the bore from the open breech and the tool inserted and given a few turns to scrape away fouling.

The British at Isandwana discovered to their misfortune that the Martini Henry rifles could begin to jam after two dozen or so volleys. They'd began firing at extreme range so by the time the Zulu closed to close quarters most of the muskets were already out of action or so badly fouled that reloading was difficult.
This left them facing born and bred spearmen with bayonets, the British were outclassed in such close quarter combat.

A test using Martini Henry rifles and period style ammo in a testing chamber in which the known humidity and temperature of that day was reproduced confirmed that report.

As for the arrow heads, the site of the last stand of the Spartans had been subject of debate due to lack of there being any large number of arrowheads at the site, but a few years ago excavation of a nearby well uncovered thousands of arrowheads.
Its very likely that the bodies of the Spartan warriors were chopped up and thrown down the well, a not uncommon practice in those days and one which Native American war parties are known to have followed in colonial times.
Scavenging battlefields for any bit of metal was a common practice in ancient times, and is still practiced in the Middle East.
An entire nation of nomadic scrap metal scavengers was known to roam the battlefields of the Middle East, which is why so few metal artifacts can be found to confirm ancient records of great battles.
Indians couldn't just stop at a outdoor supply store to pick up a fresh pack of broadheads, they scavenged every arrow and arrowhead they could, it would be more suprising if there had been many arrowheads found there even a day later much less a century or more.

A common Plains Indian steel arrowhead was actually a small scrapper blade once used to scrape away ink from a page so the paper could be reused. The blades were common and cheap and merchants found they could sell them by the bushel to the Indians.

Mutilated bodies were sometimes the result of a warior cutting out an arrowhead or even to recover bullets to be melted and recast, or just hammered back in good enough shape to fit down the bore of a muzzleloader.
Other supposed mutilations would be easy for a Homicide investiigator to recognise as defensive wounds. indians seldom wasted much time cutting up someone once they were dead, but people take a lot of killing when knives and hatchets are the only tool at hand.
There were of course some specific ritual mutilations like scalping or cutting off a hand. The Zulu split a body open to release the spirit, they believed the swelling up of a decomposing body was the spirit trying to get out, splitting the body was actually a sign of respect for the fallen enemy, they didn't bother to do so if they held the fallen in contempt.

As for Colt grip screws. Complete disassembly for a through cleaning was common, so screws were made of fairly soft steel. Its a lot easier to replace worn screws than to rethread worn screw holes.
The threads of my replica colt wore quickly and often backed out under recoil. I replaced these with some identical screws I found at at an old Singer Sewing machine repair shop. So far the replacement screws have given no problems and don't shoot loose.
A side note is that some quick draw artists found that they could draw a colt so fast that they sheared off the grip frame screws, leaving them holding a grip but no gun. Pistols modified for exhibition fast draw sometimes use special hardened oversized grip frame screws.

[hydraulic]

Multigunner:

Interesting information about the scraper blades. I had not heard of these before. Do you have a source where I could learn more about them? I have seen a number of lists of trade goods from fur trading posts but I don't recall seeing these mentioned. I have heard of fort blacksmiths making arrowheads from hoop iron taken from barrels.

[Multigunner]

Multigunner:

Interesting information about the scraper blades. I had not heard of these before. Do you have a source where I could learn more about them? I have seen a number of lists of trade goods from fur trading posts but I don't recall seeing these mentioned. I have heard of fort blacksmiths making arrowheads from hoop iron taken from barrels.

I'd first heard of the ink scrapper blade arrowheads many years ago, and about two years ago I ran across some of these displayed on a website dealing in indian artifacts.

When a popular item paper was extremely hard to get in the US and very expensive, you'll often see signs of reused paper in the photo copies of historical documents, especially memos sent by officers in the field.
Once paper became cheap and easy to find even on the frontier the scrappers became more of a curiosity item than anything else, seldom used and rusting away on store shelves.
Indians had scavenged these from debris left by wagon trains, and soon began to look for them when visiting trading posts.
The blades look like a short wide scalpel blade, the cheaper ones are flat all steel while more expensive brands have nice handles. The steel is usually high quality, it holds a good edge and isn't brittle.

Scrap iron was used for many items, railroad spikes were often hand forged into skinning knives or lanceheads.
The "Secesh Bowie" was a common Confederate soldiers fighting knife usually handmade from the strap steel or iron used to brace wagon bodies or tailgates.
Indian blacksmith work ranged from the extremely primitive to masters of the craft.

PS
heres a common example of the scraper knife, also used by Draftsmen and called an erasor knife.
http://antiques.itaggit.com/Collection/ScrimCollectors-Public-Items/142835/Thing/44906-1/Ink-Scraper-%231
This example has a handle and double edged blade, most I've seen have a single edge.

[buckweet]

If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.










i've been there, your right. i could hear the indians screaming, and the rifles roar, and smell of gunpowder.... the place freaked me out.

but ? im glad i went. we was on the harley, beautifull country up there.

[Captain*Kirk]

thanks OK
Now to just tie that to Gibbon !!!!


Nice Champ. I went to Spartan in about 80. Have a lot of friends in that area that fly. My old champ is still down there too. (1136E)

Get out!!!!!I was at Spartan in '78-'79 and graduated in November of that year!

[Boz330]

"My old champ is still down there too. (1136E) "

Yep. It's up in Miami, OK, & as far as I know is still flyin' holes in the sky ....

I know where that is at. I lost a mag on the way to NM in July 03 and that was the closest airport to line of flight. We landed and some gray haired mechanic figured out what the problem was and we spent about 3 hours fixing it. He had to fuel a couple airplanes during that time which didn't take long. When I went to pay up he said that will be $60. I said you have to be kidding me and I gave him $80 and told him to have dinner on me. It was close to 130 out on the tarmac that afternoon.

Bob

[405]

Well this is an excellent thread with much useful information.

I can add that some breechloaders and repeaters were issued with a chamber, and I suppose throat, cleaning tool to be used in thefield when fouling began to build up enough to hamper loading. The tool was shaped like a chambering reamer only made from bronze rather than steel.
water was poured through the bore from the open breech and the tool inserted and given a few turns to scrape away fouling.

The British at Isandwana discovered to their misfortune that the Martini Henry rifles could begin to jam after two dozen or so volleys. They'd began firing at extreme range so by the time the Zulu closed to close quarters most of the muskets were already out of action or so badly fouled that reloading was difficult.
This left them facing born and bred spearmen with bayonets, the British were outclassed in such close quarter combat.

A test using Martini Henry rifles and period style ammo in a testing chamber in which the known humidity and temperature of that day was reproduced confirmed that report.

As for the arrow heads, the site of the last stand of the Spartans had been subject of debate due to lack of there being any large number of arrowheads at the site, but a few years ago excavation of a nearby well uncovered thousands of arrowheads.
Its very likely that the bodies of the Spartan warriors were chopped up and thrown down the well, a not uncommon practice in those days and one which Native American war parties are known to have followed in colonial times.
Scavenging battlefields for any bit of metal was a common practice in ancient times, and is still practiced in the Middle East.
An entire nation of nomadic scrap metal scavengers was known to roam the battlefields of the Middle East, which is why so few metal artifacts can be found to confirm ancient records of great battles.
Indians couldn't just stop at a outdoor supply store to pick up a fresh pack of broadheads, they scavenged every arrow and arrowhead they could, it would be more suprising if there had been many arrowheads found there even a day later much less a century or more.

A common Plains Indian steel arrowhead was actually a small scrapper blade once used to scrape away ink from a page so the paper could be reused. The blades were common and cheap and merchants found they could sell them by the bushel to the Indians.

Mutilated bodies were sometimes the result of a warior cutting out an arrowhead or even to recover bullets to be melted and recast, or just hammered back in good enough shape to fit down the bore of a muzzleloader.
Other supposed mutilations would be easy for a Homicide investiigator to recognise as defensive wounds. indians seldom wasted much time cutting up someone once they were dead, but people take a lot of killing when knives and hatchets are the only tool at hand.
There were of course some specific ritual mutilations like scalping or cutting off a hand. The Zulu split a body open to release the spirit, they believed the swelling up of a decomposing body was the spirit trying to get out, splitting the body was actually a sign of respect for the fallen enemy, they didn't bother to do so if they held the fallen in contempt.

As for Colt grip screws. Complete disassembly for a through cleaning was common, so screws were made of fairly soft steel. Its a lot easier to replace worn screws than to rethread worn screw holes.
The threads of my replica colt wore quickly and often backed out under recoil. I replaced these with some identical screws I found at at an old Singer Sewing machine repair shop. So far the replacement screws have given no problems and don't shoot loose.
A side note is that some quick draw artists found that they could draw a colt so fast that they sheared off the grip frame screws, leaving them holding a grip but no gun. Pistols modified for exhibition fast draw sometimes use special hardened oversized grip frame screws.

Good post there Multigunner! all interesting stuff

One day while scrounging, poking around near where I lived, I found a small stash of iron arrowheads. The area also had the usual signs of Am Indian habitation/camp/activity.... flint chips, flint heads, manos, metates, structures, etc.
At least two different groups were known to have used the area over the last 1000 years or so. The iron heads were a little rusted/encrusted but otherwise in pretty good shape- each one was hand fashioned with slightly varying dimensions. The metal could have been from anything but for sure it was originally flat sheet metal and likely of mid 1800s American settler/trader/military origin and not Spanish origin from the 1500-1600s.

May not have much to do with what bullet lube was used at LBH but may indicate that the American Indian of the time could and did innovate, adapt, salvage and scavenge. The pic is of the iron points and a 1 1/4"generic "flint" point for comparison.

[Captain*Kirk]

I might mention....what a FANTASTIC thread! The Little Bighorn has always fascinated me, having read Sandoz's books as a teen as the first of many chronicles. I saw the History Channel thing and found it lacking. A lot of holes left unfilled, a lot of questions unanswered.
Custer was undergunned, undermanned (purposefully, I might add; in his quest for fame and possible presidential nomination had victory been acquired, according to more than one author) and faced the wrath of more irate Sioux than even his scouts had imagined. Many (most, according to several authors) of the Sioux were armed with repeating rifles, compared to the single-shot trapdoor Springfields with their inherent brass problems.....there are numerous reports of soldiers being cut down as they feverishly tried to pry the stuck cartridges from the breech. The man was neither a hero nor a conquistador; he was an egomaniac on a power trip. Whether or not he worshipped Terry is irrelevant; he ditched the main force and divided his own in a personal quest for fame.....and got it, ironically. Not the way he would have wanted it, mind you.
But, I'm not adding more than was already stated. As I said, great thread!

[bary]

Another good book on LBH...Killing Custer by James Welch. Written more from the Indian POV, and goes into a lot of the aftermath for the Sioux up to the Wounded Knee event.

[Captain*Kirk]

A little off-topic, but....those of you who have been there; what can you tell me as someone who is contemplating a trip to the battlefield? Where to go, what to see, nearest campgrounds, etc?

[405]

Not much help on campgrounds nearby... more local members can fill that in. Lots of open country there. Billings largest nearby place. Since in the area you really oughta try a circle route. Billings down thru Dayton Wyo. From Dayton across the mountains to either Greybull or Lovell Wyo then on to Cody. Plan for at least a day in Cody to go thru the museum there. Then back up to Billings. Could do the circle in reverse order of course. Heckuva trip since you'll be in the area. :)

[Mumblypeg]

I was there in 1993 and we stayed at a campground on the west side of the highway across from the battelfield. Don't know if it's still there or not. We were on our way to Billings. I had waited half of my life to go there. When you see the terrain you will understand how the indians could sneak up and over run the calvary with ease, lots of coolies, ravines. I didn't find anything spooky about it though. I'm a fifer and I could not help but play "Garyowen" on my fife while I was there. I guess that was weird...

[Captain*Kirk]

I was there in 1993 and we stayed at a campground on the west side of the highway across from the battelfield. Don't know if it's still there or not. We were on our way to Billings. I had waited half of my life to go there. When you see the terrain you will understand how the indians could sneak up and over run the calvary with ease, lots of coolies, ravines. I didn't find anything spooky about it though. I'm a fifer and I could not help but play "Garyowen" on my fife while I was there. I guess that was weird...
Not weird a-tall. Took some big stones to honor the dead on their resting place....(albeit all the bodies were moved, from my recollection). I've seen photos and terrain maps, but I'm sure there's nothing like the Real Thing. Sandoz paints such a real picture in her book you start to wonder if you were actually there.....
Are there any historical markers there, or are you on your own to identify where they fell?

[Captain*Kirk]

Not much help on campgrounds nearby... more local members can fill that in. Lots of open country there. Billings largest nearby place. Since in the area you really oughta try a circle route. Billings down thru Dayton Wyo. From Dayton across the mountains to either Greybull or Lovell Wyo then on to Cody. Plan for at least a day in Cody to go thru the museum there. Then back up to Billings. Could do the circle in reverse order of course. Heckuva trip since you'll be in the area. :)

Is that the Buffalo Bill museum? I was there, many, many moons ago as a teen, but Mom & Dad weren't keen about visiting the battlefield as we were on our way west to Glacier National, just passing through. Could hardly get them to stop at the museum!

[Don McDowell]

There's white markers where all the troopers they could find and identify, and brown for the Souix and Cheyenne.
There are self guided walking trails and several informational signs on the drive from last stand hill to Weir point.

[405]

Yes it is! Since you're on this forum, interested in guns and shooting, the Plains Indians and the Custer Battlefield the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody should be a natural. Really need to plan on a whole day there. The same would hold true for the battlefield. Rushing thru won't do them justice. The LBH battlefield gives me a really odd feeling. It's unlike those big battlefields of the Civil War. The LBH area is open, rolling country, usually breezy or windy and very quiet to my ear. Strange huh. I guess it affects people differently.

[Mumblypeg]

Not weird a-tall. Took some big stones to honor the dead on their resting place....(albeit all the bodies were moved, from my recollection). I've seen photos and terrain maps, but I'm sure there's nothing like the Real Thing. Sandoz paints such a real picture in her book you start to wonder if you were actually there.....
Are there any historical markers there, or are you on your own to identify where they fell?

There are stone markers where soldiers fell. Like other National Battlefields there is infomation on site.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Custer was roundly critised and rightly so, but his dashing style which won many battles could only last so long. I was in the Aussie Army Cavalry in Centurion Main Battle Tanks. We were one of the old Lighthorse Regiments. As a young Lieutenant, when asked how we would engage an enemy and we couldn't think of an appropriate answer we used to joke, do a Custer, bags of smoke and up the guts! Basically, lots of smoke and charge atraight at the enemy.

I have been led to believe through my mil history studies that Custer had gatling guns available, but refused to take them because they would have slowed him down. His style works most of the time, but when it fails, the results are catasthropic. After studying his antics I applied the rule, I'd rather have the gear and not need it, than need the gear and not have it. I applied this all through my seciond career as a Correctional Officer and manager. The armoury in Sydney was a bit under a two hour drive. I would alwsys deploy all of my tear gas and call for more before we engaged. I figured by the time the dust settled, we'd be re-supplied.

The Reader's Digest did a good article on Little Big Horn or Greasy Grass as the Injuns called it. They reported lots of knives with the tips broken off, obviously as a result of trying to extract cases from the rifles.

[hydraulic]

The National Park Service maintains a visitor center on the site. Interpretive talks are given on a regular schedule on the patio, and there are guided walks and tours. Access to the Reno defensive sight is via a paved road five miles to the east. If you are a senior citizen, stop at any Park Service facility, (Rushmore, Devils Tour, Yellowstone, etc.) and buy a $10 Golden Eagle passport. This will get you into any National Park free, for life, and half price at federal campgrounds (U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Nation Parks). There is a private campground on the west side of I90 at the battlefield exit and a KOA at Harden. Be sure to take the cemetery tour.

[Captain*Kirk]

The National Park Service maintains a visitor center on the site. Interpretive talks are given on a regular schedule on the patio, and there are guided walks and tours. Access to the Reno defensive sight is via a paved road five miles to the east. If you are a senior citizen, stop at any Park Service facility, (Rushmore, Devils Tour, Yellowstone, etc.) and buy a $10 Golden Eagle passport. This will get you into any National Park free, for life, and half price at federal campgrounds (U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Nation Parks). There is a private campground on the west side of I90 at the battlefield exit and a KOA at Harden. Be sure to take the cemetery tour.

Great, thanks!

[Charlie in Co]

Viclav

Yes there is such a report. However, that was late in the Reno/Benteen fight after some pretty hard useage. Also the report is really vague as to how many times and how many M1873 carbines were involved. There is no mention of stuck cases being a major problem in any of the officers reports. We must also remmber those same soldiers (remainder of the 7th, Brisban's 2 cavalry and the cavalry with Crook) continued on the campaign with the same issued M1873 carbines and the very same ammunition. The point is there is little fact to support any amount of jamming or stuck cartridge cases that would have been a factor in the battle. Thanks for the comments, it is always enjoyable to discuss the various aspects with those interested.

Larry Gibson

I think this is pretty much of a dead end with respect to changing the outcome at the LBH. I just finished reading "A Terrible Glory" and believe that the book captures the essence of what happened that day. The makings of which were many months in the making before that June day. Seems to me that Reno's and Benteen's extreme dislike of Custer was the main cause of the disaster. The Court of Inquiry statements were never clear to me until I read this book. It really tied together the personalities involved.

[Don McDowell]

Go stand at Weir point and stare off down medal of honor draw from the remnants of the rifle pit sometime. Take a good look around. They should of propped Custer up courtmarshaled him and shot him again.

[Charlie in Co]

Been there, several times. I am going to take my daughters on the Indian campaign vacation this year. We are going to start at Sand Creek (not too far from where we live) and visit the major battle sites ending up at the LBH on the 24th of June and then going back.

[hydraulic]

Gary Custer came into the coffee shop this morning. He's a decendent of the General's brother. We all started talking Custer, again, and Richard Hermanek, who lives across the Missouri in Running Water, SD, mentioned that his place sits pretty close to the grain elevator that was owned by John Lawler. Lawler was married to Nina Sturgis, daughter of Colonel Sam Sturgis, commanding officer of the 7th Cavalry and Custer's boss. Reno got courtmartialed for peeping at her through the parlor window at Fort Meade and wound up getting thrown out of the Army. Anyway, Nina married John Lawler who had interests in the grain business in the Dakota's, but he died at a early age from a heart attack and Nina married John Pillsbury. In l996 John Pillsbury III walked into the visitor center at the Battlefield and asked my Mrs. if she could direct him to the marker for Jack Sturgis. Jack was the youngest son of Sam and he was killed in the battle. She asked him if he was any relation and he said Jack was the brother of his grandmother, Nina Sturgis. When I got back from a talk I was giving to a group of visitors, I met Mr. Pillsbury and he generously loaned me a family history of the Pillsbury and Sturgis families. John Pillsbury III was president of the Pillsbury Baking Co. Jack Strugis' body was never found and his mother, Jarusha, had nightmares that he had been captured. In later years she visited the battlefield so the soldiers at Fort Custer, to ease her mind, put up a headstone with Jack's name on it. That stone is still there, though we have no idea where Jack fell. I don't know if any of this is of interest, but it's pretty slow this time of year and I thought you might want something to read.

[Don McDowell]

Hydraulic do you suppose one of those troopers they found after the fire might of been Sturgis?

[hydraulic]

Don: The skeletal remains recovered in '84 were fragmentary and unidentifiable except for a jawbone that they figured was Mitch Boyer's. It belonged to a mixed blood pipe smoker in his mid 30's. In '86 a skull and shoulder blade were found in the Little Bighorn river at the site of Reno's crossing. They did one of those reconstructions and believe it is Private Moody of G company. I think Jack wound up with those guys from E company whose remains were never found down in Deep Ravine. His gloves were recovered in the village by Gibbons men.

I was there in '86 when they did the dig at Reno's dump site. On a day off one of the staff went down to the LBH to look around and found the skull in the river. We had a party at the staff quarters a couple of nights later and I got to see the skull. I think Dr. Snow from Oklahoma U. did the forensics, if I remember correctly.

I had a group of visitors on a walk down Deep Ravine that summer of '86, and when we were coming back up out of the ravine I stopped at Mitch Boyer's marker (it had been placed after the jawbone was found) to wait for everyone to catch up. I was standing there skylarking when I happened to look down and saw a small grayish-green stone emerging from the trail. I took out my pocket knife and stuck it under this "stone" and out poped an unfired .45-55. I put in my pocket and when I got up to the visitor center I called the Mrs. over by the water cooler and pulled out the cartridge to proudly show her my souvenir. In a voice loud enough to be heard all over the building she says, "You get right in there and give that to Neil, you know that's against the law!" Neil Mangum was the battlefield historian at that time, and he escorted me to the archives in the basement where we recorded the find and where my souvenir resides today. It doesn't pay to marry an honest woman.

How many days till Alliance? Looking forward to seeing you there. CM.

[Don McDowell]

Charlie didn't they find one trooper they'ld never seen before over to the north last stand hill , down by the highway?

As it starts on April 30 with the 22 and leverguns, I'm thinking its 100 or there abouts.

[hydraulic]

Don: Now that you mention it, I recall a skeleton being found east of Calhoun Hill up a ways from Medicine Tail Coolee, but that wasn't found at the time of the '84 dig. Calhoun Hill is on the east end of Custer Ridge. I'll go back downstairs and dig around in the file cabinet and see if I can find anything. I used to keep all my back copies of the Greasy Grass but gave them to the grandson some years back, and I'll bet there is a writeup in there someplace. Also, Sandhills Cowboy is in touch with Roy Lindsay, Super at Fort Hartsuff ret.), and I think Roy was involved in that episode, so if the Cowboy reads this we may get him to ask Roy. However, that wasn't Jack Sturgis anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. Did you know that James Calhoun was the General's brother in law? Margaret Custer Calhoun lost her husband, three brothers, and a nephew at the LBH.

[Don McDowell]

Onetime in a discussion about Custer and other old dead guys, an overly energetic young feller retorted that he'ld take Custer on his side in a fight anyday and win. I replied back that I hoped that he had better luck than his brothers, favored nephew, and brother inlaw. :holysheep

[jh45gun]

I always had an interest in the 7th Cav and Custer, since my Dad was in the 7th Cav when they were stationed in Fort Bliss Texas during WWI and patroled the Texas/ Mexican Border. Dad was a bugler with the Rank of Corporal. (ever notice Buglers always had the rank of Corporal ???) I never heard any stories of my dad of riding a horse after the war I know he never did after I was growing up, but yes Dad was a horse soldier while he was in the service in the 7th.

[hydraulic]

While I was digging around in my files I came across an article I wrote for True West magazine in it's December, 1989 issue. Boys, don't get old-you get forgetful and your memory screws things up. Her name wasn't Nina Sturgis, it was Ella Sturgis, and she didn't marry John Pillsbury, her daughter, Elenor did. After John Lawler died Ella married John Pennington, president of the Minnesota, St. Paul, and Sault St. Marie Railraod. Now here's an interesting tidbit. In l968 Reno's case was reviewed by the Board for Correction of Military Records, and they found he had been too severly punished and was reinstated to the Army, dug up and returned to Custer Battlefield where he is now reburied. The president of the Board was Stanley Resor; GRANDSON OF ELLA STURGIS, THE GAL WHO GOT HIM KICKED OUT OF THE SERVICE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Don McDowell]

Neat stuff Charlie thanks for letting us in on it.

[Boz330]

Charlie, I don't disagree with your comment about getting old and forgetful, BUT I don't think I am ready to give up getting old quite yet. Even with the forgetfulness.:kidding:
Nice insight into some of the things surrounding the battle. Thanks!

Bob

[dangerranger]

I have enjoyed all six pages of the read so far. but back to his original question their are several things that can be done to keep a bp gun in a fight. I have two colt clones from the early eightys that were notorious for binding up with fouling. a gun smith friend fixed them by recutting the forcing cones to a better angle for BP and opening up the barrel gap. he also gave me some big groove boolits. now instead of having to clean after every 20 to 30 shots I can easily shoot 50 or more. he also tought me about lube cookies. a little disk of lube under the boolit. the cookies were messy but kept the fouling soft. with the additional lube I could just keep shooting. this worked better in my lever gun. Im not shure if the lube cookies would foul the powder charge on a hot day or not so I quit using them , but they did their job. I think that there are things about BP that were forgotten and are now having to be relearned. great thread! DR

[Multigunner]

I have enjoyed all six pages of the read so far. but back to his original question their are several things that can be done to keep a bp gun in a fight. I have two colt clones from the early eightys that were notorious for binding up with fouling. a gun smith friend fixed them by recutting the forcing cones to a better angle for BP and opening up the barrel gap. he also gave me some big groove boolits. now instead of having to clean after every 20 to 30 shots I can easily shoot 50 or more. he also tought me about lube cookies. a little disk of lube under the boolit. the cookies were messy but kept the fouling soft. with the additional lube I could just keep shooting. this worked better in my lever gun. Im not shure if the lube cookies would foul the powder charge on a hot day or not so I quit using them , but they did their job. I think that there are things about BP that were forgotten and are now having to be relearned. great thread! DR

You might want to look up information on the use of discs of beeswax compound used bewtween the over the charge card and bullet of .450 and larger ammunition for Maxim guns.
They used a fairly thick disc of solid wax. The formula for the Beeswax compound is in a treatise on ammunition I have in PDF, I can dig it up if you like.
Besides the Beeswax itself they added Swedish Pitch, from pine or fir trees, Russian Tallow, and resin.
I wondered about the Russian tallow being described as the best for such purposes and went digging deeper. I found that in Russian they fed the cattle dried beets during long cold spells, this had an effect on the chemical makeup of the fat cells which in turn had an effect on the qualities of tallow made from the fat. Now days beets have become fairly common as a winter cattle feed, so could be the same type of tallow is available from other sources.
The Beewax compound had a fair resistence to tropical summer heat, so it may be what you need.

Also it would seem to me that a Colt style front loader revolver reloaded by use of spare loaded cylinders would have a number of advantages over the single action cartridge revolvers of that period.
When swapping out cylinders wiping the arbor pin would be natural, ridding the gun of the worst of the fouling. If worse came to worse the locking latch could be left sligthl;y loose to give more of a gap.
Reloading using spare preloaded cylinders can be cumbersome on the move but still easier and much faster than extracting six empties and reloading one at a time through the gate. Of course few would have more than one or two spare cylinders to use.
Using paper cartridges and a capper reloading a C&B revolver is near as fast as a cartridge revolver, since no empty cases are left to be extracted after firing.

[Don McDowell]

The original Colt's model P had a shallow scallop in the topstrap just over the top of the cylinder and end of the barrel to help keep the fouling from binding the cylinder.

[dangerranger]

You might want to look up information on the use of discs of beeswax compound used bewtween the over the charge card and bullet of .450 and larger ammunition for Maxim guns.
They used a fairly thick disc of solid wax. The formula for the Beeswax compound is in a treatise on ammunition I have in PDF, I can dig it up if you like.
Besides the Beeswax itself they added Swedish Pitch, from pine or fir trees, Russian Tallow, and resin.
I wondered about the Russian tallow being described as the best for such purposes and went digging deeper. I found that in Russian they fed the cattle dried beets during long cold spells, this had an effect on the chemical makeup of the fat cells which in turn had an effect on the qualities of tallow made from the fat. Now days beets have become fairly common as a winter cattle feed, so could be the same type of tallow is available from other sources.
The Beewax compound had a fair resistence to tropical summer heat, so it may be what you need.

Also it would seem to me that a Colt style front loader revolver reloaded by use of spare loaded cylinders would have a number of advantages over the single action cartridge revolvers of that period.
When swapping out cylinders wiping the arbor pin would be natural, ridding the gun of the worst of the fouling. If worse came to worse the locking latch could be left sligthl;y loose to give more of a gap.
Reloading using spare preloaded cylinders can be cumbersome on the move but still easier and much faster than extracting six empties and reloading one at a time through the gate. Of course few would have more than one or two spare cylinders to use.
Using paper cartridges and a capper reloading a C&B revolver is near as fast as a cartridge revolver, since no empty cases are left to be extracted after firing.

Multigunner, I haddnt thought of alloying the wax for it to hold up to the heat. I live in an area where 100deg heat is the rule in the summer. and 115 is not uncommon. temps in a closed car can easily go over 160deg. I could just see the bees wax melting down into the powder. for that reason I carry my ammo in an insulated lunch box. DR