Fluxing for the ignorant...

[montana_charlie]

There's one thing I can attest to when it comes to ignorance. Since it is a term which means an 'absence of information', ignorance resembles a dry sponge. My 'sponge' is one which absorbs information readily, and never lets it drip out.
That means I gather a collection of information bits from reading many opinions on a subject, which are remembered basically forever. But, when it comes time to compare those bits with each other in a practical way...none of them are informative enough to resemble actual 'knowledge'.

As a muzzleloader (some years back) my only goal was to cast pure lead balls which had no wrinkles. I liked shiny ones best but, since they all got wrapped in a patch, frosty was OK, too. What I did not have to know about was keeping an alloy thoroughly mixed...and there was no tin that might 'get lost'. I would periodically 'flux' with the oft described pea-sized chunk of wax. I dutifully skimmed off whatever rose to the surface, and kept on making balls.

At the same time, I was an electronic technician in the Air Force with a very clear understanding of what constitutes a good solder joint. In that regard, along with molten lead, there was the 'flux' (to prevent the joined parts from oxidizing)...and there was tin which had to be protected from loss. The primary purpose of the tin was to lower the melting point of the solder (helping prevent damage to componenets) and to make the solder flow well into the joint. 'Shiny' was good, 'frosty' was bad. It indicated you had lost your tin by allowing the alloy to get too hot, and remain there long enough for the tin to oxidize out.

Now my game is BPCR.
And (since August) I have read countless posts on the subject...sponging up information...and am now trying to apply it. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what I'm doing. (That use of 'exactly' as a qualifier is important.)

I have two NEI moulds, and I recently had the use of a loaner from Victory. The Victory blocks were iron, and my NEI moulds are aluminum.

Both of the NEI moulds have given me some very nice bullets...but that was back when I didn't care that I didn't know exactly what I was doing. I figured, since the blocks are mine, I can spend the rest of my life figuring out what it takes to make them cast well.
On the other hand, knowing I only had the Victory for ten days, I carefully noted everything I changed while finding the perfect method for that mould. What I discovered was...with that mould...you almost can't do it wrong. It insisted on turning out good bullets no matter how screwed-up my method was. I have three hundred little works of art waiting for the day I am ready to shoot them.

But, first...I want to develop a load for my NEI Paul Jones Creedmoor...and that mould is not so forgiving.

I don't have any idea how hot my mix was when I got good bullets from it in the past. I also don't know how much tin got lost from my 30-1 alloy when I was casting those. I DO know that my Lee hardness tester always showed them to be softer than I expected.

Now I am trying to cast bullets to shoot...not just to look at. BPCR being the exacting hobby that it is, I am keeping tabs on alloy temperature, mould temperature, and 'fluxing'...but I can't turn out a decent bullet to save my butt!

I am using a dipper (and will continue to) and have tried (thermometer checked) alloy temperatures from 650 to 800 in 50 degree steps.
I am using the same 20-1 alloy I used for the Victory slugs, so I know there is enough tin in it to fill well, but none of my bullets fill properly.

I have scrupulously cleaned and visually examined the mould.
Bullets fall out easily, but they are so ugly I hate to open the handles.

There is one area on the side of the nose that always looks like a 'scab' of lead was removed, and there are various deformities in the bands and grooves in that same 'quadrant' of the right hand mould-half.
That is the side which is 'down' when I start the pour.

I have had the mould hot enough that the sprue takes four or five seconds to solidify.
I don't want to get too much hotter (harkening back to my electronics experience) but I will...IF I can find out what it takes to keep from losing tin.

And that brings me to the subject of FLUX.
Unfortunately, Merriam-Webster has five definitions for 'flux', and none of them have anything to do with molten alloys.

My 'sponge' has soaked up many information bits about flux and they include;
- Marvelux is great but attracts moisture
- too much Marlelux will screw up your alloy
- don't stir Borax, just remove the glassy surface
- a sawdust layer absorbs dross
- a wooden stick works better than beeswax
- beeswax will find it's way into your cavity if you use a dipper

My metal is clean, I just want to protect the tin content if I am forced to get extreme with temperature.
Which of the methods alluded to above have mainly to do with 'cleaning out junk'...and which is recommeded for keeping the alloy thoroughly mixed?

I did a couple of 'searches' of the forum for this kind of information, but that proved pretty useless.
CM

[44man]

You have more problems then I may be able to help with. First, round balls should be pure lead and they can NOT frost. Even a little tin will not frost them.
Second, you say you are ladle casting. Marvelux or any flux that floats on the surface should NOT be used. Just flux with paraffin or beeswax every now and then and skim the dross. You will not lose tin at the temperatures you are casting at.
Wax burns off and after skimming the dross there is no way to get it in a mould. If you are using a floating flux, my best guess is that you are getting flux in the mould.
Never flux or mix with the ladle. Use an old spoon with a wood handle rivited on.
Keep the nose of the ladle out of the lead and clean it often. Keep the hole clean of slag.
I am not really sure your cavities are CLEAN! I would say they are contaminated with something.
Are you sure you have 30 to 1 and 20 to 1 or is something else in the alloy?
Tin has almost no hardening affect and they will test soft so don't look for hard boolits.

[buck1]

Everyone had their own opinions on flux. But heres mine....
Any wax will work but Carnuaba is best, less smoke and lasts a bit longer.
Any carbon based flux will do this . As in all wax,oil ,wood dust.
Marvelux will steal your tin oxide instead of returning it to the melt.
Read this....
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm
Also you might try boiling the mold, there may be some oils in the pours.
Hope this helps a little..........Buck

[montana_charlie]

You have more problems then I may be able to help with.
That's true, so just concentrate on those that have to do with casting bullets...

Second, you say you are ladle casting. Marvelux or any flux that floats on the surface should NOT be used. Just flux with paraffin or beeswax every now and then and skim the dross. You will not lose tin at the temperatures you are casting at.
By "dross' are you referring to the fine, powdery, 'dust' that forms after the smoke clears and the stirring has been done?

That appears to be the residue from the beeswax. Is that correct?

Or...do you also mean to include the silver-grey 'scum' which forms as I cast?

That (I assume) is my tin coming to the surface...meaning it's time to flux again, to mix it back in. Is this correct?

(BTW I never use floating fluxes...just mentioned that I'd heard about them.)

I would prefer to simply stir with a wooden stick, but I can't decide how effective that is...or if there is any particular 'technique' that makes it more useful.

Never flux or mix with the ladle. Use an old spoon with a wood handle rivited on.
Interesting comment. I use whichever I happen to pick up. I'll take your advice.

I am not really sure your cavities are CLEAN! I would say they are contaminated with something.
The only thing which has been in it (the cavity) is a spray graphite. When bullets started coming out so poor, I cleaned that out with brake cleaner. But after cleaning, the problem continued. So, I suspect that it wasn't caused by the graphite, after all.
In any case, it's gone now...but cleaning is still on my mind if I find something more thorough than what I've done already.

Are you sure you have 30 to 1 and 20 to 1 or is something else in the alloy?
The same alloy made 300 beautiful PGT bullets, and (before that) good bullets from this NEI mould.

I do appreciate your response, and the business-like way you approached my problem(s).



Also you might try boiling the mold, there may be some oils in the pours. (pores)
You might be right. Have been considering soaking the thing in carbuerator cleaner for an hour or two, but boiling might be less messy. Thanks...
CM

[44man]

After you flux, remove everything floating on the surface until you have a nice shiny surface. As you cast, lead oxide will form on the surface, this is not tin. You can not see the tin but it will rise to the surface a little and you don't want to skim without fluxing first. Residue from the wax is only some black ash. I flux when the oxide interferes with getting a clean ladle full of lead, maybe 15 to 20 boolits. It varies with how hot the lead is. I drop my sprues in a coffee can and just before I flux, I pour them back in the pot.
You will not lose your tin by fluxing and skimming.

[454PB]

Once tin is alloyed with lead, it does not seperate. Fluxing serves to clean the alloy, and since you are using a dipper, any of the dross on the surface of the pot tends to find it's way into the dipper, and even into the mould. That's why we flux and then skim the dross off of the top of the pot. Once that surface is shiney clean, it immediately begins to glaze over again as the lead alloy oxidizes. I agree that Marvelux works best with bottom draw pots, once I flux well with Marvelux, I leave the dross on top to help isolate the alloy surface from air (oxygen) and reduces the rate of oxidation. I only remove the dross when I'm at the bottom of the pot. It serves the same purpose as using kitty litter on the surface. As you already know, anything carbon based will serve as a fluxing agent, the only advantage to Marvelux is ....no smoke.

One of the things that struck me in you post is that it takes "4 to 5 seconds" for the sprue to solidify. To me, it indicates that the alloy and mould are not hot enough. When I'm casting large boolits it takes at least twice that long for the sprue to solidify.

IMHO, you are worrying too much about losing tin. Turn up the heat, preheat the mould, flux every 15 minutes or so (using the dipper method), and see if your boolits turn out better.

Oh.....and think about a bottom draw pot:drinks:

[Bucks Owin]

Gee I just dump in some sawdust along with the cold ingots and whatever is handy for flux. Boolit lube, chassis grease, old crankcase oil, neighbor's cat.....(Well, not CC oil :-D ) I light the smoke on fire to get rid of it....

One thing I've heard important is to scoop some air into the alloy while fluxing and I try to do that. Also, I sometimes re-flux at about the 1/2 pot level if my alloy seems to be getting "dirty"....(I've recently gone back to bottom pour)

Seems to work,

Dennis :castmine:

Oh. When I'm "on a roll" I sometimes use the wet sponge trick to "hurry" the sprue. It's easy to get a "tear" on the base that way though. Best method is to just slow down!.....(for me at least)

Frost? Doesn't bother me much...
I just call 'em "Paco Kelly boolits"

[44man]

Bucks, how long does it take to get the burning cat hair smell out of the garage????

[D.Mack]

Montana chalie. I will make no comments about flux, but you mentioned that you defects were repeatable and consistintly in the same locations. This not a flux problem,but probably a contaminated spot, probably what ever the mold was presereved in or cutting oil. Clean the mold and try again. DM

[Bucks Owin]

Bucks, how long does it take to get the burning cat hair smell out of the garage????

Ya gotta singe 'em off first! :roll: THEN add to the mix... ;-)

Dennis :Fire:

[waksupi]

Here we go again.

Round balls do not need to be cast of pure lead, and there is no problem if they are frosted.

Do any other users of RB's, actually go out to shoot and hunt with them? Sometimes I wonder, when I see statements like these...

[Bucks Owin]

Do any other users of RB's, actually go out to shoot and hunt with them?

Actually, when I still had my TC "Hawken" .50 I used .490" RBs exclusively along with linen patch material from Mom's sewing "rag box". Even with the 1:48 twist I got the best accuracy with them....

(Besides, they seemed more "authentic" to me. Maxi balls? Hell, "Liver eatin' Johnson" never used no dern maxi balls! :-D )

Dennis

BTW, I carried it with a RB for hunting a few times but never got a shot with it. It had no sling and I finally got tired of packing it around! (Guess I wasn't as tough as ol' L.E. Johnson!)
But I did have perfect faith in the round ball/80 grs FFG load. The guy I traded it to eventually killed an elk with it in the Kootenays of BC using that load FWIW...

Anyway, sorry to get off the path here. I just like telling my tales I guess....:roll:

[powderburnerr]

MT.Charlie

I cast them big bullets at 750 degrees my mould sets on a hot plate til The thermostat clicks off I start casting and do not use the ladle to stir the pot. I carefully dip it to the bottom ,fill it and pour the bullet over an old pan I do not pour over and back into the pot. I have very little dross this way and when my spru box gets full I usually have at least 75 bullets . I use a clock on the wall and let the spru puddle harden, about 8 seconds, then wait 15 to 20 seconds then cut the spru and eject the bullet. I cast a bullet every 45 seconds ... these are 550 to 560 gn bullets and with this procedure it yields bullets within a half gn all day . when the pot gets low I put the mould back on the hot plate til the pot had melted the sprus and new lead and the thermostat cycles off then start again.I lightly flux with beeswax at this time. I usualy reject the first 6 bullets each cycle into the spru box ...I run a double cavity Victory mould with a two hole ladle or two Brooks moulds at the same time........Using the singles from brooks I still have the mould hot enough to take the spru about 8 seconds to cool and harden then only 10 -15 seconds to let the bullet harden before cutting the spru . by rotatong the moulds The time spent dumping one and refilling the other is just about right. ...I sve my rejects and if I am casting a marathon session I will drop 2 bullets in the pot each time I dump a ladle ..thiis doesnt cool the mix and doesnt make any more dross then if melting origionally . if you cast much over 750 the pot oxidizes on the top very fast .. at 750 and casting faster I do not have near the problem .. I cast a 25-1 mix for the big bullets....hope this helps.......Dean

[montana_charlie]

you mentioned that you defects were repeatable and consistintly in the same locations. This not a flux problem,but probably a contaminated spot,
Thanks for that attention to detail, DM. Yes, they repeat...and yes, they always appear in the same area.

Maybe it's mould temperature...even though it heats on the rim of my furnace as the lead melts.
And maybe it's dirty, as you suspect.

When the mould arrived from NEI, I never cleaned it. Because it is aluminum, I assumed thay had not oiled it for shipping, and I further assumed they had cleaned it well after machining.

The mould turned out twenty good bullets after thirty so-so examples.

I only needed a few for measuring, selecting a top punch...things like that...so I quit casting with it for that day and remelted the thirty or so flawed ones.
At least I knew I didn't need to send it back to NEI.

On Saturday, I fired two six-round groups with the twelve I had not used for other things, and they were my best (3 MOA) groups to date. So, I wanted to make some more.

The mould had lain untouched - and unoiled - since that inital casting session...until yesterday, when it started giving me fits.

I spent a total of eight hours casting and remelting the same twenty pounds of alloy. Twice, I allowed the mould to cool to 'bare hands' temperature for re-cleaning. The first time was to remove the graphite coating I had decided to try because it worked so well on the Victory mould. The second time was an effort to clean out whatever I had missed the first time...because the mould still wouldn't cast for me. I couldn't find a trace of anything with a 10X jeweler's loupe, but cleaned it anyway.

My plan right now (based on the responses to this thread) is to clean it again, then try again with hotter alloy...now that I am less concerned about losing tin.


Oh! By the way, Waksupi...
I have to agree with you about the pure lead and the frosty bullets in muzzleloaders. Back at that time, I was certain I was using pure lead because I could mark it with a nail.

Last week, I found those old ingots. I don't remember the number (right now) but when I tested one it was at least as hard as ww.
I won more than one match with those (hard) bullets...and some of them were frosty.
CM

EDIT added...
Boy! You know that thing they call tunnel vision?
We can see it in others, but not ourselves...because we are busy staring down our own little tunnel.

I was putting away some gear for cleaning rifle cases, and wondering if it's about time to mix up some more solution for my ULTRASONIC CLEANER. About the time I decided that it was OK for another batch of fouled cases...the thought of cleaning a bullet mould sorta snuck into my thinking.

SHOOT! I have some concentrate...designed for 'delicate metals'...I have been looking for something to try it on.

Well...it's sizzlin' away right now.'. (belated) DUH!

[44man]

Waksupi, The reason I say pure for muzzle loaders is that if the right size ball and patch is used you will not get the ball in the barrel.
If you use a smaller ball then hard lead can be used. Since I shoot either bore size with a .012" patch or at the very most, a .005" undersize with a .020" patch, there is no way short of a hammer to insert a hard ball and it will ruin the patch anyway.
TC started the small ball craze by recommending a .490" for the .50 cal, etc. Some guys actually use smaller then that. Then I have nothing to say about hard lead!
But the best accuracy from my TC .50 was with a .500 ball. Just try to load that with hard lead!
And yes, I hunt with them and have no problem shooting over 200 rounds at a shoot without ever wiping the bore. I have won hundreds of shoots and hauled a thousand pounds of grocerys home.
Since I lived in Ohio where only shotguns and muzzle loaders were legal for deer, I used a .45 flinter, .50 TC and my .54 Hawkin, in Ohio, PA, MI and WV. I figure I have over 175 deer taken with muzzle loaders. I also get 3 to 5 deer a year with bows, then more with revolvers. As close as I can count I have killed at least 365 deer.
I cut my teeth with muzzle loaders with ample help from Bill Large and Dan and Wes Kindig. I know how to shoot them and what it takes to make them shoot straight.
You are welcome to come to my house and I will cast some WW balls for you to load. Bring a big hammer! And if you think you need a hard ball to kill deer, you are dead wrong, I have only recovered one ball in all these years because it smashed a lot of bone.
I have also used some Maxi balls in the .50. My best shot was a deer running and leaping brush full bore at a measured 125 yd's. I hit her behind the shoulder. Yes, dead soft pure lead!

[44man]

Waksupi, if you think I can only shoot close range revolvers, here are some targets.
The one on top is 4 shots from my 45-70 BFR revolver at 200 yd's. The lower left is 3 shots at 100 yd's from my home made .54 hawkin with a soft lead ball. The center one is 5 shots from the Hawkin at 50 yd's. The little one is 3 shots from a TC Hawkin and a Maxi ball at 50 yd's. It did the same with a round ball but the target is long gone.
Now maybe it is time for you to show us the meat!

[44man]

Waksupi, here are a few of the guns I have built. All wood was hand cut from maple and cherry planks. I make all the metal parts except the barrels, locks, buttplates and trigger guards. Too bad you can't see the details, carving, engraving and silver barrel inlays.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I guess I do everything wrong and still manage to make mostly good consistent boolits. That is why I firmly believe that casting is as much art as science. I ladle cast over a Coleman stove, flux with a stick off the woodpile, and rake the dross out of the way with the fin on the bottom of my RCBS ladle until it gets so bad I have to flux again. Last night I was weighing .35 Whelen boolits for NCBS 2006.
The lot I was choosing from was only 360 castings, but I only needed 110 to load. By the time I found my 110, all weighing 212 point something grains, there were also 90 weighing 211 point something grains, four weighing 210 point something or 213 point something, six rejected from match grade because of being shiny, and 150 I never needed to weigh. That's about all the consistency I need, 200 very acceptable castings out of 210. I believe that the one thing I do right is constantly fiddling with fuel flow and air pressure to maintain as consistent as possible alloy temperature. I often use an RCBS thermometer, or this time, adjusted heat by the color of the Coleman's grill, and how the mould felt happy on that day. Mould temperature is maintained by attempting to maintain a uniform pace of casting by biological clock. I too have been plagued by one spot that won't fill. Occasionally the problem goes away after a vigorous mould cleaning; more often the cause seems to be temperature too high. That is why I am such a stove fiddler. Guess I am an unscientific empirical caster, but still manage to produce the few match grade boolits I need, and lots of good looking,
never weighed plinkers. IMHO, we are all alchemists!

[Bucks Owin]

Waksupi, here are a few of the guns I have built. All wood was hand cut from maple and cherry planks. I make all the metal parts except the barrels, locks, buttplates and trigger guards. Too bad you can't see the details, carving, engraving and silver barrel inlays.

Gee, that IS too bad the photos aren't a little closer. Those look like some BEAUTIFUL frontstuffers!

Nice work!

Dennis

BTW, I agree about the tight RBs in the TC .50 Hawken shooting best. I always used as tight a patch as I could without cutting it at loading. I only had a .490" mould, wish I'd had a .495" or so to try. But it still managed groups of around 6" @ 100 yds which is as good as I could shoot with the stock sights anyway. Always meant to install a tang peep but never go a "round tuit"....:-)

[David R]

YOU ARE GOING TO GET IT! Like the rest of the folks, I think your mold is contaminated. The problem comes up in the same place every boolit. I pour 10 or 20, then spray with brake cleaner (shop solve) and clean with a tooth brush while the mold is hot. I do this twice with a new mold, then smoke lightly with a butane flame. Works every time.

I also start with the pot on High until the boolits start to come just a little frosted. More of a galvanized look. Then I turn the pot down and throw in the rejects from the first few castings. This brings the alloy down to near where I set the T. Stat.

You can bet they didn't clean it like you would want it after your mold was made.

Most of all, Have fun
David

[44man]

NVcurmudgeon, I agree 100% and have done that very thing for years except I used my mother's and then the wifes kitchen stove. That is where you learn to not cast messy, believe me. As good or better boolits and balls plus fishing sinkers and jigs then all of the electric pots I own. Since getting kicked off the stove when we bought a new one, I cast with electric in the garage.
At least we don't have to cast with a pot in the fireplace coals by candle light while chewing on pemican.

[44man]

Bucks, a little better picture. Lighting is poor in the basement. Carving is 1/8" high and the eagle is silver. I have no trouble hitting a pop can at 75 yd's offhand with this one and have killed deer to a little over 100 yd's with it.
It is a .45 with a swamped barrel.

[nighthunter]

When casting you have to work the dross back into the melt. The dross is that scummy stuff on top of the melt after fluxing. If you use your ladle or spoon and work the dross back and forth against the side of the pot all metalic elements will return to the melt and you will be left with a black ash like substance that you can remove from the pot. You will know when you have worked the melt enough..... the top of the pot will be bright and shiney. It only takes about 2 minutes more but the results are worth it. Quit throwing away the good stuff.
Nighthunter

[swheeler]

Ummmm! purdy- got some more wood you'd like to find a nice loving home fur?
Scooter

[44man]

There was a Kiln in Ohio that would send me a card when they were opening it up. I would buy a huge curly maple plank for $30. They would most likely be worth $400 today. Anyway, they stopped selling to the public long ago.
The Cherry I used on my Swedish Mauser came out of my woods. The tree blew down and I slabbed it up with a chainsaw. It dried for 3 years in the barn, then a long time in the house. I didn't have a planer or jointer then. You will never know how hard it is to get a plank smooth and flat by hand!

[waksupi]

.44man, I guess some of it may have to do with differences in loading. I will not use a bullet I need to use a short starter for. I have looked at a lot of original bags, and have never seen a short starter in one. So, I kind of doubt the old timers loaded that tight. I have tried tighter balls in my ML's, and yes, they do shoot marginally better at a hundred yards. I've never had problems with deer, no matter what the ball is made from, but like something with better penetrating capability for elk and bison, not to mention grizzly bears one may stumble across in this area.

Beautiful rifles you make! Very nice!

[floodgate]

44 Man:

"At least we don't have to cast with a pot in the fireplace coals by candle light while chewing on pemican."

I actually HAVE cast with an old iron Colt cap-'n'-ball mould from a tuna can on the coals in the fireplace by kerosene light, with a pair of LH gloves, one soaking while the other burns dry. (No pemmican, though, just "slumgullion".) AND taking turns with my wife; she's a real KEEPER (Al's not the only one to have lucked out)! Still got both the wife and the mould, almost sixty years later. Sold the Colt .44 Army though; now I use the replicas.

floodgate

[buck1]

[QUOTE=NVcurmudgeon]I guess I do everything wrong and still manage to make mostly good consistent boolits. That is why I firmly believe that casting is as much art as science. QUOTE]
TRUE!!! Theres more than one way to skin a cat, Ask carpetman. LOL....BUCK

[buck1]

Bucks, a little better picture. Lighting is poor in the basement. Carving is 1/8" high and the eagle is silver. I have no trouble hitting a pop can at 75 yd's offhand with this one and have killed deer to a little over 100 yd's with it.
It is a .45 with a swamped barrel.
NICE WORK! ...Buck1

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, folks.
Taking the theories put forth by you, and (in desperation) downloading and reading the Lee mould instructions, I did all of those recommended things...including trying the bottom spout.

Because I try very hard to buy only pure lead (at below-foundry prices), and then add foundry tin to make up my alloy, I was being too careful about losing that tin.

It appears that if I just leave my thermometer in the drawer...and adjust my old Lyman Mould Master according to what the bullets look like...I can get some keepers.

Two things have been confirmed to my satisfaction...

- An ultrasonic cleaner does a bang-up job on moulds, with Cole-Parmer 'Surface Cleanse/930' being a great solution for aluminum, and their 'Micro-90' for iron. (I also use the Micro-90 for my brass.)

- I will continue to use the bottom spout exclusively for emptying the pot into ingot moulds. Even when dipper filling was producing perfect bullets, bottom poured slugs looked like the alloy, or mould, was too cool.
CM

[44man]

Even though we got off topic (but that is standard procedure anyway.) I'm glad you were helped. Just use the K.I.S.S principle and be happy.
Don't get anal retentive with the pure foundry stuff either. I have used everything from roof sheathing to cable sheathing and all kinds of other stuff that looked soft. Never noticed a bit of difference!

[Pilgrim]

Before you beat yourself up too much, you might want to consider mould venting. My experience is that if you continue to get the same kinds of flaws in the same places, it is either contamination or venting. I've cleaned the bejeebers out of moulds using everything I could get my hands plus boilding water with detergents, on and it hasn't done any good with some of them. Clean the vent lines with a brush or some such that will scrub the vent lines clean. If that doesn't help, then carefully scribe the vent lines with something sharp (filet knife point or something similar works OK), but be very careful not to deepen or widen the vent lines. If that helps a bit, but doesn't solve your problem entirely, very carefully go over the lines again, this time very slightly opening them. It is possible you have a burr or other crud in one or more of the vent lines that is fouling up your mould. I know folks have cast perfect bullets using moulds with no vent lines. In fact, the old Ideal moulds didn't have vent lines at all in many cases. I suspect that the faster you pour the melt into the mould, the more critical is the venting. If the mould and alloy are hot enough so that you can pour the melt fairly slowly, and still keep the sprue molten for a bit (10 seconds +/-??) you may be able to get good bullets without doing anything at all to the mould. JMO...Pilgrim

[montana_charlie]

Don't get anal retentive with the pure foundry stuff either. I have used...all kinds of other stuff
Oh, I'm not THAT bad. I don't buy 'foundry' lead...I just try to make sure it comes from sources that are supposed to be essentially pure.

The tin is my only certified addition, and at $43 for six pounds, I hate to waste it.

The reason I am being so anal about my alloy is that I am just getting into BPCR.
I am in the early stages of load development, and just trying out my first bullet designs.

Until I find out what the rifle needs, I will keep everything as consistent as I can. After all of the necessities are known, I can play with bullets made of rubber, Cerro-Safe, and wheel weights. (Just kidding on the Cerro-Safe, but that rubber...hmmm.)

If anybody wants to try those Cole-Parmer products in an ultrasonic cleaner...or just as 'soaking solutions'...generously sized free samples are available.


carefully scribe the vent lines with something sharp (filet knife point or something similar works OK), but be very careful not to deepen or widen the vent lines...
Thanks for your input, Pilgrim. You can bet that I looked at burrs in the venting as the first thing. As for deepening any of it...
If you've ever looked at an NEI mould, you know how 'wide and deep' the lines are. If I enlarged them at all, they would start to resemble the Martian canals.
CM

[Goatlips]

If anybody wants to try those Cole-Parmer products in an ultrasonic cleaner...or just as 'soaking solutions'...generously sized free samples are available.




Charlie, thanks for the tip on using an ultrasonic cleaner for molds. I found one I thought might work on brass SG shells (it didn't) and now I might have a use for it. How does one get free stuff from Cole-Parmer? TIA

Goatlips

[montana_charlie]

How does one get free stuff from Cole-Parmer?
Here are links to sample offers for both of the products I mentioned.

Free sample of Micro90...for brass, iron, etc.
http://www.ipcol.com/prod-m90.htm

Free sample of Surface Cleanse/930...for aluminum and 'delicate metals'.
http://www.ipcol.com/prod-sc930.htm

They both work for other materials like glass and such, too.

A very nice lady will call you to find out what application you intend to test them on. She will also ask how long you think it will take you to do your testing, so she can call back and see how the results turned out.

If you have questions about their other capabilities, ask her while you have her on the line.

As I was just starting, I had asked for the Micro-90 sample. After talking for a bit, she asked me to consider Surface Cleanse/930 because she thought the Micro-90 might be rather harsh for brass. (so far, I like it fine.)

I really didn't know which to choose..and said so...so she sent me both.

I submitted my initial request on the Cole-Parmer website, but these links work back through to them, also.
I didn't know that. I thought I had found another outfit giving away samples so I submitted a request (a couple of days ago) for both products on that site.
Next morning the same lady was calling me...ulp!...and she remembered me from back in January.

I apologized profusely and explained I wouldn't have asked if I thought I was dealing with the same original outfit. She said she would be 'a good sport' and send me two more bottles, anyway.

Like I said...she's a nice lady.

If you mention that Charlie Maxwell on the Rocking CM Ranch in Vaughn, Montana turned you onto this idea, she might feel better about me being so greedy...
CM

Oh! By the way, Goatlips...
When you fill out that online form, there is a space for a FAX number. And it won't accept the request unless you put something in there. I just put my phone number in both places...
CM

[Bret4207]

MC- With the price of tin have you considered trying wheel weights and cutting them with "pure" lead? I don't so the BPC thing, but I know you guys shoot for specific alloys for repeatablity, so my idea may be useless.

[montana_charlie]

Not a 'useless' idea, Bret. There are some who use straight ww, so you know the guns don't care what goes through. But the match guys want consistent hardness...actually 'softness' is what they're after.

Getting that from known ingredients is just easier than trying to 'adjust' something which is known to vary, by adding something else which does not.

It could be done...and might be cheaper...but a guy would (at least) need a dependable hardness tester.
CM

[John Boy]

Free sample of Micro90...for brass, iron, etc.
http://www.ipcol.com/prod-m90.htm

Free sample of Surface Cleanse/930...for aluminum and 'delicate metals'.
http://www.ipcol.com/prod-sc930.htm

Charlie, want to thank you for posting up up the cleaning products. They are the 'cat's nuts'!

The 2 sample bottles came in 3 days and what you didn't mention for the folks ... IT'S CONCENTRATE. Recommended mix is 2% ... enough to last a life time!

Made up the mix and cleaned 3 molds scrubbing with a brass brush ... the embedded crud peeled right off... super clean molds. Then I put a mold in the ultrasonic tank with the Micro90 ... WOW! More crud came off. It works even better when the solution warms up in the ultrasonic tank.

But ... don't pour any of the concentrate on a mold that is at casting temperature. Tried it and it ... Bubbles and boils down to a sticky residue.

Next ... gonna clean the Lee molds up with the Surface Cleanse/930

I almost feel guilty that the sample bottles are free and won't be paying the folks for a great product

[Treeman]

You have tons of tips on fluxing and a jillion mould cleaning tips but unless I missed it noone has told you to SMOKE THE CAVITIES!!!!!!!!. Some alumnium molds fill and drop okay dry and clean but they all work better and some only fill right if you smoke them. A butane lighter will work-play the tip of the flame into the cavities until they turn brown. An acetylene torch with the oxygen off will turn 'em black in 2 shakes. I predict that this will solve your problem. When in doubt turn up the heat. Waiting on perfect bullets to cool beats dropping rejects fast.

[Nardoo]

MC, I had the exact same trouble with one of my 45/70 molds. I cleaned it till I though it would dissolve and even polished with a felt wheel and Autosol using a Dremel. Still the same.
It turns out that with this particular mold I needed to let the bullet sit for longer before opening to dump it out. I need to let it sit on the work bench for at least 30 seconds (whilst I cast 2 bullets out of another mold) before cutting the sprue and dropping the bullet out. Can't explain it and it sure is more fussy than my other molds.

Nardoo

[montana_charlie]

You have tons of tips on fluxing and a jillion mould cleaning tips but unless I missed it noone has told you to SMOKE THE CAVITIES!!!!!!!!.
Wasn't necessary, Treeman. That trick was old back when I was casting round balls, and I haven't forgotten it. But, I don't plan to smoke cavities, ever again.

The way I see it (after thinking it over) is that smoking won't hurt a good cavity, but might help a bad one. By 'bad' I mean one which you can't get the bullet out of.

I have come to believe that temperature is the key to getting a good fill, so I won't expect smoke to help with that.
If the bullet won't come out of the mould, I think there is something wrong that smoke just acts as a 'workaround' for. Sometimes the problem can be found and fixed...sometimes you have to use smoke for life.

Having 'discovered' good moulds with properly made cavities, I think I am all done with the smoke.
CM

[Treeman]

Not me. I don't consider smoke a "work around". It is an ancient trick that makes better boolits more easily. BTW all the guys who are using muffin tins for ingot molds and fighting stuck ingots and bending up tins.... Smoke the tins well and the ingots will come out cleanly.