Pros and cons of the lee tumble lube 44 caliber

[tackstrp]

I never see anyone write about the merits of the 240 grain Lee tumble lube in 44 caliber TL430-240-SWC. All I ever read is how great and accurate the Lyman 429421 240 cast bullet is when pushed to the highest velocity possible, which stresses shooter and the hand gun. I also read that great accuracy only seems to come from bench rest shooting. I never read about off hand shooting or rapid fire. As a result i wonder about what the real world difference between a lyman 429 421 mold and the Lee TL 430 240 swc.

If someone would post pro and con of the Lee tumble lube molds I would greatly appreciate reading what you have to say.

[jforwel]

I use the Lee TL boolits in my .32 H&R Single Six and my .41 magnum Blackhawk with excellent results. I also have a Ranch Dog TL mold for my .35 Remington Marlin but have yet to use that.

I like the convenience of the lube process and the choice of sizing or not sizing. I don't size my .41 boolits but have tried the .32s both sized and unsized. So far I have not found much difference in accuracy between sizing and not sizing but am still experimenting.

I really don't know of any cons with these, either your guns will like them or not just like any other boolit and load combo. By the way I do have the NOE Keith SWC for my .357 and two Lyman 429421s which cast heavy with WWs and are used for more powerful loads.

[Bret4207]

IMO the biggest pro to the TL designs is the simplicity of lubing them. No GC, no sizer, cast, lube, load and shoot. Of course all that depends on the boolit fitting in the first place and the gun liking the design.

BTW- I can tell you that the 429421 doesn't need maximum wrist wrenching loads to shoot well. It does very nice work at 750-800 fps in a 44 Special, a joy for hip shooting practice and general farm and woods work. I'm not aware of too many designs that don't work as well as at low to moderate speeds as they do at high speeds.

[JudgeBAC]

Brett: What loads are you shooting in your .44 special with this boolit? My 624 3" .44 special has been a real challenge since it has such huge throats. The best load so far is a 265 gr. Paul Jones mold with 8 grs. W-540 (HS-6) sized to .432. Yesterday I started experimenting with the 265 gr. TL ranch dog gas check boolit.

[Maven]

"IMO the biggest pro to the TL designs is the simplicity of lubing them. No GC, no sizer, cast, lube, load and shoot. Of course all that depends on the boolit fitting in the first place and the gun liking the design." Bret4207

tackstr, Brett summed up most of the advantages of the .44cal. TL design. Once I polished the mold's cavities, mine cast rather easily as well. However, there were more flawed driving bands than I got with other CB's. The other negative aspect is that leading increased and accuracy decreased with loads faster than ~1,050 fps. 7.5 grs. - 8.0 grs. Alliant Unique will do that in my SBH with the Lee TL CB and the -421 and RCBS 44-250-K as well. It is an accurate and comfortable load with all 3 CB's.

[35remington]

Following up on Maven's comments is particularly relevant for me.

Most of the good soft lubes, like 50/50, Lar's fine lubes, and the other better soft lubricants are too easily overapplied to pistol bullets and actually decrease accuracy for me. Leading control is superior to LLA at low velocity, but accuracy is worse. This is why it is often recommended to lubricate the bottom lube groove only in most pistol loads of moderate velocity with these good soft lubes, as fully filled lube grooves overlubricate the barrel and I believe the bullet never actually gets a "hold" on the rifling.

If you want to see accuracy go downhill, try a good lube of soft consistency in the single large lube groove of a HG 68 pattern 200 grain SWC and shoot it at moderate to standard velocity in a 45 ACP. Here lubing only the bottom lube is not an option in a lubrisizer since it has just one big lube groove. However, when tumble lubed (admittedly this isn't a TL bullet, but it makes the point) the accuracy is better despite more leading. A tumble lube bullet used at low velocity with LLA often keeps leading under control better than a conventional bullet lubed with LLA as there's a better "reservoir" of lube that is not scraped off in bullet seating like a conventional bullet lubed with LLA often does. Therefore I see the TL bullet as the best way to keep leading down when using their formula of LLA in moderate velocity pistol loads. Actual usage of the LLA on tumble lubed versus conventional bullets bears this assumption out for me.

I think of LLA as the lubricant to use when lubrication demands are not too high, which encompasses most pistol and a lot of low velocity rifle use. And of course I think Maven is correct in that the better lubes are the ones to use in pistols when velocities get higher, but of course this depends on the gun used as well, especially revolvers. A poorly dimension revolver will lead even with a good lube.

I use LLA an awful lot on non tumble lubed bullets in rifle loads of 1100-1800 fps and it works fine there, but again the lubricant demands aren't too great. Admitting LLA is inferior to the soft lubes as a lubricant at the higher velocities isn't the same thing as saying it's less useful, as it does have its application. So whether you find a tumble lubed and LLA'd bullet useful or not depends upon what you're doing with it. I find that the LLA and tumble lubed gaschecked bullets hold their accuracy up to a bit over 2000 fps in rifle loads and does fine there as well. So most of my moderate velocity loads like 25-20, 35 Remington, 30-30, 7.62 X 39, etc. are also well covered.

[tackstrp]

been been running 9 mm and 358 lee tumble lube through the Lee sizers Quite a few were difficult to push all the way and when came out other side the bands were shaved off. This leads me to believe that I would not want to cast, lube and shoot without sizing. Maybe I am just old and set in my ways.

I have a two cavity Lee 44 214 grain mold that is not tumble lube. Have not shot it yet but looks like a good one for the range. Shame they do not offer a six cavity in thie model.

Juat not convinced about the ease of casting, sizing and lubing lee tumble lube bullets. I can see if you have a consistant supply of lead that does not bulk up after it comes out of the mold one could get away with nor sizing. I have lubed some tumble lube with full strength Lee Alox and find the stickness no worse the Bull shop speed green. However the Alox is easier to clean off the top and base of the bullets.

Only thing I have decided for sure is i like the Lee six cavity molds over lyman four cavity. That opinion is mostly due to the weakness in my left hand. Old injury. I can work around the weight of the lyman molds but is time comsuming.

[Bret4207]

Brett: What loads are you shooting in your .44 special with this boolit? My 624 3" .44 special has been a real challenge since it has such huge throats. The best load so far is a 265 gr. Paul Jones mold with 8 grs. W-540 (HS-6) sized to .432. Yesterday I started experimenting with the 265 gr. TL ranch dog gas check boolit.

6.0-7.0 Unique works great in my M24 3" and Bulldog. I haven't taken it up with Unique too often. I think I used Skeeters load of 7.5 Unique for a while, but that was some time ago.

[mooman76]

If you had problems sizing TL bullets and it took off the bands something was worng. I have sized and not had probles although I size allot less than I did when I first started. I don't have a 44 in the TL but have allot of other 44 moulds and TL moulds too. I shoot some of the 44s non TL but lube them with allox and they shoot well. I mostly shoot a Lee RNF bullet if I remember right it's 200 gr or about and it does well for a plinker in both my 44 special and mag. I bought a 450 sizer a few years ago and use it as it suits me but I still use the alox and have been using the JPW more reciently because it is less messy or sticky and have been satisfied with the results so far.

[tackstrp]

noonman the problems i had today were with a lee TL 358 158 grain. I dont have a 44 tumble lube. I found that boolits with a tad of lead like a wing off the side of bullet would and did jamb to the extent i had to remove the sizing die and heat it up with a proprane torch to melt the lead out. Any bullet not a perfect cast seemed to be difficult. This is my second lee sizer . I suspect my lead alloy mix is causing a slight oversize cast. Tempted to sell 358 tumble lube and stick with some of the other normal looking lee molds. OH well. live and learn.

I only have one 44 iti is a S&W model 29 -2 6.5 inch. which i have had for many years along with my lyman 450 sizer and my one 429421. Which bring me to a question. What is the advantage for having a square lube "cut" on the 429421 as oppsed to my round one ? All I can think of is a tad more lube.

My recent purchase of a new Lee 20 # botton pour pot is a big help casthng better bullets.

[35remington]

Oh no, tackstrp........you just burned the temper out of your die heating it with a propane torch! These are hardened for durability, and you just removed it.

In fairness, it'll still probably work for quite awhile anyway, but heating it wasn't the right way to get the bullet out.

I haven't had much in the way of sizing needed for my tumble lube bullets. For the most part I just cast them and lube them.

[Jasper]

only TL mold i own is the Lee 148gr DEWC. excellent accuracy from them (lots of bearing surface). i cast/lube/load, and under 2.7-2.8gr of bullseye, they'll hold quarter sized groups out to 25 yards off a bench.

[tackstrp]

thanks all great reading

[kelbro]

My new TL358 casts some pretty fat boolits. Running them through the Lee sizer says .358 but there is a lot of 'flattening' of the grooves. Seemed harder to size too but this was my first try with WD WW. Are they harder to size?

I like the TL 44 SWC mold that I have. Casts well with #2, sizes easily and shoots well.

[tackstrp]

thank kelbro thats is same as my problem. makes me wonder if I really want to buy the 44 calibler tumble lube i

copy of memo i sent to lee precsion and the response. note the alloy mix.
At 01:39 PM 11/6/2009, you wrote:
> not long ago Lee sent me a sample of tumble lube.. it was a TL430-240-SWC and i find it weights only 225 grains. That seems odd . I put my micrometer on it and it measures 430 even after i run it thru my Lyman 430 sizer. i do not have a lee 430 sizer
>
>
> Can you offer and explanation why the sample from lee would be so light.?
Sir,

Our weights are based on a 1 part tin to 10 part lead mix. Harder alloys produce lighter bullets, and pure lead will produce a heavier bullet. Also, if the mold isn't filled out it will produce a light bullet. Look for sharp, well defined edges on the lube grooves, around the base and on the nose of the bullet.
>
>

[Patrick L]

I have both. The Lee TL SWC is a great boolit, and very accurate. I would caution anyone trying to load it hot, like the 429421, to just be careful. The weight is all down in the base, and when seated to the proper length it will seat much deeper in the case. Just be careful as I'm sure that can raise pressures.

[Bret4207]

Following up on Maven's comments is particularly relevant for me.

Most of the good soft lubes, like 50/50, Lar's fine lubes, and the other better soft lubricants are too easily overapplied to pistol bullets and actually decrease accuracy for me. Leading control is superior to LLA at low velocity, but accuracy is worse. This is why it is often recommended to lubricate the bottom lube groove only in most pistol loads of moderate velocity with these good soft lubes, as fully filled lube grooves overlubricate the barrel and I believe the bullet never actually gets a "hold" on the rifling.

If you want to see accuracy go downhill, try a good lube of soft consistency in the single large lube groove of a HG 68 pattern 200 grain SWC and shoot it at moderate to standard velocity in a 45 ACP. Here lubing only the bottom lube is not an option in a lubrisizer since it has just one big lube groove. However, when tumble lubed (admittedly this isn't a TL bullet, but it makes the point) the accuracy is better despite more leading. A tumble lube bullet used at low velocity with LLA often keeps leading under control better than a conventional bullet lubed with LLA as there's a better "reservoir" of lube that is not scraped off in bullet seating like a conventional bullet lubed with LLA often does. Therefore I see the TL bullet as the best way to keep leading down when using their formula of LLA in moderate velocity pistol loads. Actual usage of the LLA on tumble lubed versus conventional bullets bears this assumption out for me.

I think of LLA as the lubricant to use when lubrication demands are not too high, which encompasses most pistol and a lot of low velocity rifle use. And of course I think Maven is correct in that the better lubes are the ones to use in pistols when velocities get higher, but of course this depends on the gun used as well, especially revolvers. A poorly dimension revolver will lead even with a good lube.

I use LLA an awful lot on non tumble lubed bullets in rifle loads of 1100-1800 fps and it works fine there, but again the lubricant demands aren't too great. Admitting LLA is inferior to the soft lubes as a lubricant at the higher velocities isn't the same thing as saying it's less useful, as it does have its application. So whether you find a tumble lubed and LLA'd bullet useful or not depends upon what you're doing with it. I find that the LLA and tumble lubed gaschecked bullets hold their accuracy up to a bit over 2000 fps in rifle loads and does fine there as well. So most of my moderate velocity loads like 25-20, 35 Remington, 30-30, 7.62 X 39, etc. are also well covered.

Interesting. I wonder if the "lower quality" lube is contributing to a better powder burn, a different pressure curve?

[Ricochet]

been been running 9 mm and 358 lee tumble lube through the Lee sizers Quite a few were difficult to push all the way and when came out other side the bands were shaved off.
Did you not lube the boolits before sizing them? You'll often have serious difficulties if you don't.

[tackstrp]

yes a thin mix of mineral sprits and alox. they are still wet when i put in the sizer.

[Ricochet]

OK. Might try thinning it less. Or let it dry a while. I never thin mine. Sizing down a bunch, like one of the CTL312-160-2R to .308", will nearly smooth out those little grooves anyway. The original idea of the tumble lube bullets is to use them at as-cast diameter.

I just find hints of the grooves left on many fired boolits of the tumble lube variety. I expect a lot of the Alox gets "wiped" off as the boolit's sized down in the leade, briefly forming a sealing band at the base of the boolit in the leade. Probably gets left behind and pushed by the next boolit through the bore.

[35remington]

Bret, my opinion's always been the lubricant needs aren't too great in moderate velocity pistols, and a good lube never lets the bullet get a hold on the barrel as it's floating on an excessive film of lube. Leading's nonexistent, accuracy is likewise.

If I put something like 50-50 or Lyman Super Moly on a single lube groove HG 68 bullet, groups suck. I shoot much smaller groups with my J frame 38 snubbie than my 45 when that happens.

I think there's a reason they put crappy hard waxy lube on commercial hard cast pistol bullets. The crappy lube doesn't overlubricate and groups are then just fine.

[Marlin Hunter]

I have the Lee TL 44 SWC. I had no problems with the boolit when it was loaded at the low end of the powder range (and with an excessive amount of LLA). I did not try any loads at the upper range (yet). These boolits were shot out of a S+W pistol and Marlin rifle. The 44 Mag felt like a 44 Special. Accuracy was good enough: better than I could shoot, but shot low as would be expected. The recovered boolits showed excellent rifling engraving on the surface; no lead smearing.

[greg1]

I spray case sizing lube on my bullets before I size them. I use Midway. Seems to work fine and is cheaper.

[greg1]

I use Midway case lube on my cast bullets and have no problems sizing them. I think it is cheaper than using the Alox. I always re-lube with LLA or a recipe from this web site after I size.

[kingstrider]

I shoot a LOT of .44 magnum and the 6-cavity TL430-240-SWC has probably become my #1 mold. There are better designs but this mold is great for cranking out a PILE of boolits which can be quickly lubed with mule snot (liquid alox) for accurate plinking loads that are still stout enough to kill something with.

[arcticbreeze]

I never see anyone write about the merits of the 240 grain Lee tumble lube in 44 caliber TL430-240-SWC. All I ever read is how great and accurate the Lyman 429421 240 cast bullet is when pushed to the highest velocity possible, which stresses shooter and the hand gun. I also read that great accuracy only seems to come from bench rest shooting. I never read about off hand shooting or rapid fire. As a result i wonder about what the real world difference between a lyman 429 421 mold and the Lee TL 430 240 swc.

If someone would post pro and con of the Lee tumble lube molds I would greatly appreciate reading what you have to say.

I have and use the same Lee mold in the standard lube groove version and it is a fine boolit. As far as the rest of your question, you don't here about accuracy merits of off hand or rapid fire vs benchrest shooting, is that the former would a test of the shooter and not the gun, boolit, or load.