Lathe collet advice?

[Char-Gar]

Thanks to all of the excellent advice from Buckshot and others, I now have my Logan 9" lathe up and running and it meets or exceeds all expectation. It is real jewel with plenty of life and accuracy left in the old girl whose was born in 1947. It came with tons of tooling, but it is of the same vintage as the lathe.

With the 4 jaw chuck and a dial indicator I can pretty well center round stock up +- .001 but it is slow. I am now ready to make the leap to collets. I have some ready cash, so I don't have to do it on the cheap. Here are the lathe specs

Hole through headstock - 25/32
Spindle thread 1 1/2 X 8

My mind is running toward a Bison collect (5C) chuck. It comes in a regular and a "Set-Tru" models and I am not certain which would be better.

I will be using this mostly to make sizing dies and other reloading stuff, so what collets do I need? I hate to spend money for something I don't need.

What is your counsel on this matter?

I am also finding the old lantern tool post to be slow. What else is out there better and quicker? I have a full set of the old Armstrong tool holders that fit in the lantern/rocker tool holder. Is there a quick change gizzy in which I can use the old tool holders?

Thanks for any help you can give.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try checking out "The Home Shop Machinist " site, there is a lot of info in the archives.
5c collets and a quick change tool post will help. CDCO has good prices but do not order on the web site it is not secure use the phone.

[Dutchman]

The only effective way you can use 5C is with the collet chuck as your spindle hole isn't big enough for a drawbar.

The "set true" type are capable of much tighter accuracy. But they do cost more. (money well spent).

I use a Chinese quick change wedge type tool holder. Bought it when I got my Birmingham 12x36 new in 2005 for $140. I've since purchased 3 more of the straight holders. Sometimes you can find them for $9 to $12 each. You can't have too many. I'm using the 200 size but in truth the 100 would've done just as well, maybe a little better. The 100 takes 1/2" tools, the 200 takes 5/8". Not a big difference but I had a bunch of larger tool bits.

Collet sizes for what you state: 7/8", 3/16", 3/8" at least. But, truthfully, you should have 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 5/8", 11/16", 3/4", 7/8", 1" in round. Hex and square are nice to have. I have 3 square and 4 hex that I buy as I need them. But you really should have a set of round to cover most of what you'll need.

Chinese collets versus American made and new versus used collets..........

I have some of everything. If possible I'll buy used Hardinge or some other American collet. Some of the older ones do not have internal thread for a collet stop. Having the capability to use a collet stop is important and very handy. I have quite a few Chinese collets purchased new, mostly from Enco. The Chinese collets on fleabay come in two accuracy levels. Some are stated and some are not. The really cheapies are .0006" runout. The better ones are .0004". My lathe has .0004" runout on the collet adaptor. For a Chinese lathe that's not bad. Its not bad for any old lathe either. The Chinese collets I've been getting from Enco are very nice. I've not put an indicator on them but I have no reason to. They're much better than what was "Chinese" 20 years ago. The Enco are about $8 each (?). I just got a 3/32" and 9/16" to fill in empty spots in my collets. (3/32" is counter-bore pilot size) (9/16" is for Lee flaring die - the universal expander die...I have plans for it).


Some good links:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/hstpages.html

I buy material from these guys. No complaints.
http://www.speedymetals.com/default.aspx

Machining Nylon and Acetal Parts from Stock Shapes
http://www.plasticsmag.com/features.asp?fIssue=May/Jun-06

http://www.finelinehair.com/home/index.htm

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCProjects.htm

http://vts.bc.ca/metalshop/hobber/hobber.htm

Smallparts.com can have lower prices on a lot of stuff. Spend some time there and get aquainted.
http://www.smallparts.com/b/46339/?utm_campaign=Site_Index_Header

Just bought some laps from this place. Excellent service and prices.
http://www.moldshoptools.com/catalog/list.php?category_id=102

http://www.duncanamps.com/metal/index.php

something different
http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/index.htm

When you need to feel humbled....
http://www.5bears.com/index.htm

Making a knurling tool.
http://www.rulezman.com/workshop/ws/friends/knurlingtool.htm

Dutch

[bedwards]

A beginner question. Do collets work better, easier than the chucks? I only could find one collet when I bought my lathe. It has the 5c collets too.

BE

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for the input. I bit the bullet and ordered the collet chuck and backplate. Cost almost as much as I paid for the lathe. But, the lathe is in top notch shape, I like it, it suits my needs and is the only one I will own..so I need to set it up to suit me. I ordered them from Logan Actuators. There prices are the lowest I have found for these items. Lower than Enco and MSC.

[Dutchman]

A beginner question. Do collets work better, easier than the chucks? I only could find one collet when I bought my lathe. It has the 5c collets too.

BE

A 3 jaw chuck is a generic do-all hold-all work holding devise for round stock and hexagonal stock. It doesn't have the exacting accuracy of other means of work holding. But a great deal of what you do on a lathe can be done completely with a 3 jaw. If your object is turned from a larger piece of stock then the 3 jaw can produce perfection as the part is in perfect alignment with the centerline of the lathe. As soon as you remove that piece of material it looses that accuracy.

4 jaw chuck can produce exacting tolerances and can hold oddball shapes. Its a very practical work holding devise and gets easier to setup with practice. You could live the rest of your life with nothing more than a 4 jaw chuck and be none the worse when all is said and done.

5C collets are each for one size only. They are as accurate as the lathe. They are well suited for repeat machining and production runs of one-after-another type parts. You might say collets are easier than chucks but the size limitations of 5C runs out at 1 1/8" round. But there are a huge number of special 5C collets such as clutch collets for very short and larger diameter workpieces. If you google "5C collet" you'll get a lot of information and ideas.

5C aren't the only size collets. For smaller lathes like the 7x you can use 3C collets which run up to 1/2". I used 3C on a 10" Atlas lathe for many years and produced excellent accuracy. Google "lathe collet".

Dutch

[TAWILDCATT]

I had a South Bend that had a turret tailstock and a lever collet closer with 5c.
I believe it was a 12 inch.bench.I had 3 jaw and 4 jaw and a scrole chuck.I sold it to a fellow who was going to do gunsmithing.we made a deal.the knife still bothers me.that was 30yrs ago and I cant let go.

[Char-Gar]

You got to let go of those trades you regret. I don't want to remember the best grade Woodward over and under, cased with an extra set of barrels I sold 35 years ago for $1,000.

[JIMinPHX]

I've tried using Bison chucks in the past with kind of mixed results. The concentricity was usually good & the top jaw fit was tight, but the threading in the hardened master jaws was just awful. I ended up making custom tapered machine screws with extra wide threads cut into them so that I could hold the top jaws on. The price of the chuck was OK, but I got what I paid for. The Polish micrometers & live centers are usually a little better than the Polish chucks are.

[lathesmith]

The collets are great for grabbing onto finely finished things without marring them. As Dutchman points out, a 3-jaw chuck can be surprisingly accurate and useful, and is often underrated for its potential accuracy. But, the main reason I like using collets for finishing dies and things, you can "chuck" them up without worrying as much about buggering up a fine finish.
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

.............When I bought my 11" Logan it had a 5C lever collet closer setup. I bought a set of 5C collets by 32nds, and in 5 years of use have only bought 2 more intermediate (64th) sizes. I very rarely ever mount my big 3 jaw chuck, and the big 4 jaw almost not at all. If it requires a chuck I have a small (5") 3 jaw and 4 jaw with a 5C backplates:

http://www.fototime.com/399BE768073A69B/standard.jpg

Except the 4 jaw here was the first I had and it's a little 3 incher. The 5C is a wonderous thing, but it's limitation is it's narrow grasping range. Only a few thousandths under and even less 'over' it's nominal size. Even if you have, say a 7/8" collet and the piece of 7/8" stock is scabby it may not fit, or if it does any little raised ridge or whatever will defeat the collets ability to grasp true.

A neat thing is you can make your own intermediate collets, and custom full race ones :-).

http://www.fototime.com/EA42AD18D042DA2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8A2C7C8756BDCD9/standard.jpg

Like this one above. When I was modifying 32 guage brass shotshells (Berdan primed) to take 209 primers for my Comblain, none of my 5C's fit. I made this one to fit the 5C on the OD and the cartridge case on the ID, and then alternately slit it so it would collapse. Just like a collet :-) The flange I put on so I could grab it, and it doubled to keep it from going too deep into the 5C. This way I didn't have to stop the lathe. I could just open the 5C with the lever, pluck out the ho-made collet, remove and replace a new case and stick it back into the running collet, close the lever and re-commence my destruction :-)

I've also made these type to hold number and letter size stock. If you haven't found it so yet, you'll find yourself making stuff to use in making other stuff. If you make this stuff you can run in and show the wife. They'll be polite and act interested but usually won't know what they're lookin at, what it does or why you needed it even though you explained it, nor why you can be so entralled by some bit of metal. They really just want you to go back out into the shop and leave them alone.

So far as a toolholder is concerned, for your 9" I'd get the AXA (100) size of quick change setup. Also as many of the #1 and #2 toolholders as possible (over time). As was mentioned it's hard to have too many of them. I have the BXA (200) size on my 11" and it's almost too big.

http://www.fototime.com/BA6361C20C96D6A/standard.jpg

In the above photo (threading on the backside) the tool is a 5/8" brazed carbide 60* threading bit. In order to be on center see how low the tool holder is on the post? Depending upon how I have the post sitting it has been impossible on occasion to get a insert type 5/8" tool to center on the work. On a few toolholders I've milled in a relief on the bottom to clear the corner of the compound.

The reason for having a bunch of toolholders is out of lazyness primarily, but it's also VERY handy. You can have one with a threading tool in it, one for righthand turning and one for lefthand. A cutoff tool in another, a hogger tool, and a fine finish tool, and then another with a facing tool.

http://www.fototime.com/6A7B4820DA9AEED/standard.jpg

Just like the above. All setup and ready for a 'run' of some particular part. All setup on center. You thump the release lever, pull one off the toolpost, drop the other one in place and pull the lever back to lock it in place. Create more hot chips, then repeat the above and in 5 seconds you have a different tool in place making more hot chips :-) Keeno, dude :-)

So when you DO go in the house your wife says, "Honey you smell just like hot oil!" (wifely disapproval), and you say, "Yeah babe, ain't it great!?"

..............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

Buckshot --- Thanks for the info. A couple of questions.


What is a "hogger"?

What is the diff between a regular cutting tool and a fine finish tool?

I know most standard tool bits, but I don't know what you are calling a hogger and a fine finish.

[machinisttx]

Buckshot --- Thanks for the info. A couple of questions.


What is a "hogger"?

What is the diff between a regular cutting tool and a fine finish tool?

I know most standard tool bits, but I don't know what you are calling a hogger and a fine finish.

A hogging tool will have more aggressive cutting edge/relief angles and a larger nose radius. Finish tools have a small nose radius.

[Buckshot]

A hogging tool will have more aggressive cutting edge/relief angles and a larger nose radius. Finish tools have a small nose radius.

...........Yes, and the finish tool has an edge you could shave with, and it's ONLY used for finishing as the rake and relief wouldn't stand much more. The metal literally comes off as dust, and actually almost floats down ward.

..............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

OK... I will see if I can find one of those gizmos. I didn't see such in the Enco catalog, but I will look again. I am getting ready to send them a big order. Charles

[Buckshot]

OK... I will see if I can find one of those gizmos. I didn't see such in the Enco catalog, but I will look again. I am getting ready to send them a big order. Charles

............If you mean a 'finish' bit, it's something you'll have to grind yourself as it's outside the normal paramenters :-)

............Buckshot

[stephen perry]

I have a Logan 922 Lathe. Bed is short so you would need to go through the head stock to chamber. This is no problem since there is a 1 3/4" hole for that purpose. I also have 3 and 4 jaw chucks. I will upgrade to an Enco or whatever tool post holder.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Buckshot]

I have a Logan 922 Lathe. Bed is short so you would need to go through the head stock to chamber. This is no problem since there is a 1 3/4" hole for that purpose.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

............A 922 is an 11" machine also. I think you mean 1-3/8" vs 1-3/4" hole through the spindle, doncha?

..............Buckshot