Accuracy of Keith vs LBTLFN in 45 LC.

[Changeling]

For you guys that have experience with these two bullets what do you think as far as accuracy between the 2 (opinions) in weights of 260/265 grains and the 45 LC.
Ranges will vary out to 300 or so yards when I'm seriously playing around to 100 give or take in hunting. I seems both have a reputation for a fine "Killing" bullet but thats about all I know concerning them other than the Mephlat seems to be about the same size between the two. I'm "assuming" the mephlat on the Keith is absolutely flat as it is on the LBTLFN.

[44man]

For you guys that have experience with these two bullets what do you think as far as accuracy between the 2 (opinions) in weights of 260/265 grains and the 45 LC.
Ranges will vary out to 300 or so yards when I'm seriously playing around to 100 give or take in hunting. I seems both have a reputation for a fine "Killing" bullet but thats about all I know concerning them other than the Mephlat seems to be about the same size between the two. I'm "assuming" the mephlat on the Keith is absolutely flat as it is on the LBTLFN.
A WLN or WFN or a Keith work as far as killing. But the Keith never gave me the accuracy I want. That is what you need to explore.

[Frank]

Changeling says
Ranges will vary out to 300 or so yards when I'm seriously playing around to 100 give or take in hunting.
Looks like we got another guy here who understands there is more to life than a Ransom Rest, 25 yds and a gun rag in the back pocket. :drinks:

[44man]

Frank, I think there are a lot more here then we think and there are also some super shots.
I know for a fact we have the smartest and most talented.
I am sure we have too many lurkers that should join in too.
We all must understand, there are a lot of fellas that have no place to shoot past 25. I even know of one club that will not let handgun shooters on the rifle range, they restrict you to the pistol range.
Overall, those of us that CAN shoot far are lucky.
I have to feel sorry for those that live in the city or have to drive 100 miles to shoot.
Even though I promote shooting far, I still understand the problems some have. Too many are stuck with an expensive indoor range.
There is a range in VA where you can't shoot on it unless you have a receipt for ammo bought in the store. A good way to make money but a poor way to promote shooting, after all, they also sell reloading stuff. The place is dominated with the rich that go in the store and buy a case of ammo, step out on the range and blast away like crazy with AR's. Anyone that is working with a gun can't even put up fresh targets.
I feel so lucky to have 200 yards in my woods and I belong to a club in PA where I can shoot to 800 yards even though I rarely get there anymore. And what a great bunch belong to the club.

[Bucks Owin]

Frank, I think there are a lot more here then we think and there are also some super shots.
I know for a fact we have the smartest and most talented.
I am sure we have too many lurkers that should join in too.
We all must understand, there are a lot of fellas that have no place to shoot past 25. I even know of one club that will not let handgun shooters on the rifle range, they restrict you to the pistol range.
Overall, those of us that CAN shoot far are lucky.
I have to feel sorry for those that live in the city or have to drive 100 miles to shoot.
Even though I promote shooting far, I still understand the problems some have. Too many are stuck with an expensive indoor range.
There is a range in VA where you can't shoot on it unless you have a receipt for ammo bought in the store. A good way to make money but a poor way to promote shooting, after all, they also sell reloading stuff. The place is dominated with the rich that go in the store and buy a case of ammo, step out on the range and blast away like crazy with AR's. Anyone that is working with a gun can't even put up fresh targets.
I feel so lucky to have 200 yards in my woods and I belong to a club in PA where I can shoot to 800 yards even though I rarely get there anymore. And what a great bunch belong to the club.
This is a helluva good post 44 man. Good places to shoot are a blessing these days. Awhile back I had to give up my "personal" range in the woods where I built a crude benchrest and had 200 yds to play in. But I have a place now where I can use the hood of the jeep to 50 yds and a fine long range facility an hour's drive away. The 50 yd "range" is visited by other shooters who leave their trash, targets and broken bottles strewn around. I try to keep things picked up as best I can, Lord knows we don't need the image that vandals and slobs with guns create. I know what you mean about the folks that like to go out and shoot up a case. Power to 'em! Just don't shoot up signs, green trees, songbirds, stray animals etc. Ya know what? I challenge all shooters who shoot in a place that is an embarassment to ALL OF US SHOOTERS, to simply take a trash bag with ya next time, and fill it up before you leave....With me? Dennis ;-)

[44man]

This is a helluva good post 44 man. Good places to shoot are a blessing these days. Awhile back I had to give up my "personal" range in the woods where I built a crude benchrest and had 200 yds to play in. But I have a place now where I can use the hood of the jeep to 50 yds and a fine long range facility an hour's drive away. The 50 yd "range" is visited by other shooters who leave their trash, targets and broken bottles strewn around. I try to keep things picked up as best I can, Lord knows we don't need the image that vandals and slobs with guns create. I know what you mean about the folks that like to go out and shoot up a case. Power to 'em! Just don't shoot up signs, green trees, songbirds, stray animals etc. Ya know what? I challenge all shooters who shoot in a place that is an embarassment to ALL OF US SHOOTERS, to simply take a trash bag with ya next time, and fill it up before you leave....With me? Dennis ;-)
How great!. I put you in a special class.
I too hated a mess, years ago we were cleaning up a parking spot at the PA game lands. The game warden came and asked what we were doing. I said we were cleaning up the trash others left. We had an instant friend instead of the normal LEO.
Same thing in Ohio when we shot on a farm. We busted cans and plastic jugs when the game warden stopped because he heard the shooting. We had bags of trash to take with us. The game warden was a very happy man.
Some shooters are just pigs and leave everything on the range. Can anyone explain this to me?
Of all the people, shooters should be the very best.

[dubber123]

I don't know the percentage of shooters who are slobs, but it's FAR too high. At our range, we can't leave any of the Silhouette targets out, or morons with rifles will shoot them full of holes and let them lay there. A member left a set of his saw horses by the pistol pit to help with some of our renovations. A week later some ******* had shot them full of holes. I left a note that said "The next time you feel like destroying someones property, put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger instead" I meant it too. Dumb ones get killed in the rest of nature, why not us?

[longhorn]

Ross Seyfried's writings certainly agree with 44Man--I haven't shot enough of the LBT designs to even have an opinion. RS claims the LBT is much more accurate at extended ranges. Plinking at long ranges (for those of us lucky enough to have a place to do so-) is both humbling and fascinating. Go back and read Keith on how to grip a handgun--proper and consistent grip makes a huge difference when targets are way out there--my main reason for disliking Pachmayrs.

[Changeling]

From my house I can shoot to the East for 235 yards and around to the south witch is 370 yards. Yes I am very lucky to have this.

[Lloyd Smale]

its tough to find an extreamly accurate 45 colt bullet in that weight range with any of the styles. Of the three id probably give the lfn the best chance. In my opinion really good 45 colt bullets usually start at about 300 grain and max out at about 350. Sure there may be an exception in a certain gun with a certain bullet but if you take 10 45 colt guns and run tests ill about bet you come to the same conclusion.

[Bucks Owin]

its tough to find an extreamly accurate 45 colt bullet in that weight range with any of the styles. Of the three id probably give the lfn the best chance. In my opinion really good 45 colt bullets usually start at about 300 grain and max out at about 350. Sure there may be an exception in a certain gun with a certain bullet but if you take 10 45 colt guns and run tests ill about bet you come to the same conclusion.

Here's a 300 gr group that illustrates! This is Grizzly Cartridge Co +P load: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/grizzly2.jpg

[Changeling]

its tough to find an extreamly accurate 45 colt bullet in that weight range with any of the styles. Of the three id probably give the lfn the best chance. In my opinion really good 45 colt bullets usually start at about 300 grain and max out at about 350. Sure there may be an exception in a certain gun with a certain bullet but if you take 10 45 colt guns and run tests ill about bet you come to the same conclusion.

Lloyd, I think I wasted this post because I just took the time to read (should have done it first) the "stickie" , Gates Extreme Meplat. I only made it up to page 5 but that was enough to let some light shine through my rifle mentality brain cells.
I have just about always shot rifles that are super fast for there caliber. But, I shot one deer with my .44 Ruger mag that just plain changed things in the way I look at hunting anymore, at least in my area (Maryland), and the way I want to go about it from now on.

Where I hunt most shots are inside 200 yards with the bulk probably being less than 130 yards.

The load was a LBTWFN 260 gr WW water dropped with 22 grains of 2400 from a 7.5 inch Ruger SBH. I don't know the velocity but the range was about 120 yards
I caught him in the shoulder down through the lungs and out, he simply just dropped in his tracks, that was it!

Anyway I have been asking a lot of bullet questions in other posts about accuracy/whatever.
Reading the Gates article it suddenly became clear to me that it just plain takes two different bullets to do what I want to do (maybe more,whats wrong with that).

So now I am going to concentrate my questions on the hunting range and worry about the bullets to play around at 300 yards later, hope this makes sense to you, does to me.

I have one concern and that is the recoil between the 260's and the 300's, I'm not that recoil concerned, but I'm not a lover of it either. Is there a way to explain the felt difference since there will also be a lady involved and I know she won't like a pounding.

There will be a lot more questions now, I hope it doesn't bother you guys.

[Lloyd Smale]

load a 300 to about 1100 fps. It will be accurate and fairly mild recoiling and more then capable of taking any game animal at hunting ranges.

[BD]

For a long time I used the Lee 310 RNFP in my .44s. No longer, these days I'm using a 265 grain WFN instead. The reason? Gloves. If I sight in barehanded with the 310s, I'm 14" high at 25 yards wearing heavy wool gloves. Using the 265s the same scenario only puts me 2" at 25 yards. I learned this by missing the same deer six times @ 30 yards one frosty morning in Maine. We were eye to eye the whole time. I still can't believe he let my try six times!

I attribute the difference to a combination of more recoil plus longer barrel time with the 300 grainers. The 265s shoot just as well out to 150 yards, and they've passed clean through everything I've shot them at with one weird exception, when I hit a pig in the shoulder from a pretty high angle taking his foreleg clean off without killing him.

BD

[Bucks Owin]

For a long time I used the Lee 310 RNFP in my .44s. No longer, these days I'm using a 265 grain WFN instead. The reason? Gloves. If I sight in barehanded with the 310s, I'm 14" high at 25 yards wearing heavy wool gloves. Using the 265s the same scenario only puts me 2" at 25 yards. I learned this by missing the same deer six times @ 30 yards one frosty morning in Maine. We were eye to eye the whole time. I still can't believe he let my try six times!

I attribute the difference to a combination of more recoil plus longer barrel time with the 300 grainers. The 265s shoot just as well out to 150 yards, and they've passed clean through everything I've shot them at with one weird exception, when I hit a pig in the shoulder from a pretty high angle taking his foreleg clean off without killing him.

BD This is a good point. I think most of us .44 mag fans have played with the 310 gr Lee. (I have a mold with the gas check portion cut off that drops 262 gr. It's still in "development" for silhouette shooting) Anyway, it's a fine projectile but as you said, a little "thumpy" for everyday use. I found the RCBS 225 gr (actually 232) GC bullet to shoot flat and accurate at around 1350 fps. This is a pleasant shooting .44 load and oughtta anchor any deer it bumps into. Probably a little light for busting big hogs.....FWIW, Dennis

[44man]

This make me laugh! :drinks:
I had the same problem when I got my .475. No problem on the range but when I shot at deer I was shooting over them or taking hair off the top of them, no blood.
I found I was too relaxed shooting at deer and need to tell myself to "HOLD TIGHT." Look at what you are doing, not the gloves.

[Changeling]

Lots of things to think about. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.

[BD]

I can laugh about it now, it wasn't as funny at the time though. We had been playing hide and seek with each other in a cedar bog for an hour before I got an eye on him. I had on a pair of those Olefin liner gloves under a pair of thick wool gloves, and believe me by shot number six I was really bearing down and taking my time lining up the sights. I just couldn't believe it. I could only see the top of his neck, his right eye and the base of his rack looking through a mess of cedars. I was holding on the top of his neck.

The way he kept still and stared at me the whole time had me ready to believe he had some kind of supernatural power until I stopped by the gravel pit to try a few on the way home.

BD

[44man]

A thorn in my side are the guys that say to let the hog leg "ROLL" in your hand. Please don't, let the gun raise your whole arm.
I can see thick gloves can reduce your grip. I suppose the best is to sight it with what you wear.

[jandbn]

Changeling,

In regards to the pounding of the 300s, I can relate to worrying about the better half’s tolerance to recoil. The first loads I made for the wife to shoot were with some culled .452 325 LFNPBs that had been dropped on the floor. This was the first time she had shot a handgun. I loaded ‘em up to as much as 6 grains of Trail Boss for use in “our” 5 1/2 SS Bisley. She thoroughly enjoyed shooting them. At 6 grains, there was some muzzle rise and she said the feel of the recoil was “invigorating” (her word for it!).

After running out of the cull loads, I started shooting the same lead with a start load of 21 grains of H110. There was a definite change in recoil. After having had a .41 and .44 Mag years ago, recoil was about what I expected. She watched me shoot a cylinder of ‘em and said she would try. I told her to hold on tight as there would be a big difference between the TB and the H110 loads. She shot one, said that was enough and proceeded to get up from the bench with a few words about recoil. Within 10 seconds, she decided she should try one more time. I couldn’t believe it! After the second shot, she laid the revolver down and said “I’m done!” while shaking her hand a little. The bite went away soon after though. I give her a lot of credit for pulling the trigger on that second heavy load while knowing what that first heavy one felt like:!: I was very pleased to say the least. :D

My suggestion would be to find “your” load and then for her, try slowly working up progressively heavier loads starting with lighter lead and recoil that shoot to the same POI as “your” load. Given some time and practice with progressively heavier lead and powder charge, she might surprise you in that she may eventually be able to shoot “your” load if you don’t scare her off with the heavy stuff first.