1888 Commission Rifle Loads

[Beekeeper]

OK I need a whole lot of help on this one.
I have 2 1888 commission rifles I want to load PP for.
They are the 8x57J Not 8x57JS and shoot a .318 boolit.
I have 170 and 205 Gr. boolits PPed and am now looking for a good load for them.
Have H4198, IMR 4895,Red Dot, Herco IMR 3031 and IMR 4064.
Would like to keep the pressure below 1800 .
Was thinking of using the H4198 but cannot find a chart for pressuress and am looking for any help I can get so I don't make an ash out of myself.


Jim

[Ricochet]

Pressure below 1800?!

As for diameter, it's not so critical with cast boolits. If they'll chamber and extract with reasonable ease, they can safely be several thousandths larger than groove diameter, as is the usual practice in other guns.

The SAAMI pressure limit for American 8mm Mauser loads (I think 38,500 PSI) was set with the Commission Rifle in mind. American commercial 8mm Mauser is loaded with a .321" jacketed bullet.

[Beekeeper]

Ricochet,
Sorry 1800 fps.
The rifles I have are the original 1888 commission barrels designated 8x57J which is a .318 groove barrel instead of the 321-323 groove of the later barrels which are designated 8x57JS
That is why I am unsure of using the published 8x57JS data and am looking for anyone who has the data for the 8x57J.

[bcp477]

If I remember correctly, the Commission 88 rifles have a 29" barrel, yes ? If that is so, then IMR3031, H4198, Red Dot and Herco will probably be too fast for this application. As you probably know, faster powders produce a steeper pressure curve (pressure will build faster, as charges are increased to increase velocity, vs. slower powders). I agree with your reasoning of keeping your loads to around 1800 fps - this should ensure that you can keep the pressures acceptable - with the right powder. From your list, for a 29" barrel, IMR 4895 will likely be your best bet....though 4064 may work well, too. A charge of about 30 grains should produce approx. 1800 fps with the 170 gr. bullet.....and approx. 32 grains should do about 1800 with the 205 grain bullet. Pressures certainly should be acceptable at that level, with 4895. If I were you, I'd start at around 27 grains, with either or both bullets....and work up in 0.5 grain increments. If trying 4064, then around 31 grains and 33 grains, respectively, with the 170 and 205 grain bullets, should be good for about 1800. 4064, being a bit slower than 4895, will build pressure more slowly....but, reduced charges become dangerous more quickly than with 4895. Conventional wisdom says don't go below about 60 % load density with such powders as 4064 (or slower ones) without some sort of filler. 30 grains is borderline, in this regard. So, if loading at or below 30 grains (with the 4064), I'd add a small tuft of dacron or cotton wool filler, to keep the powder column in place. This will increase pressures though, so it is a bit of a tradeoff. You can safely load 4895 down to 27 grains, or even a bit less, in this cartridge, without filler. I have a feeling that 4895 will give better results in this application anyway....so I'd start there.

As always, be VERY careful and precise.....and watch VERY closely for any signs of excess pressure !!! I am assuming that your two rifles are in good condition. If there is ANY question of this, then be sure to have them checked out by a good gunsmith , BEFORE undertaking this project.

[Beekeeper]

Thanks bcp477,
Will start with 27 gr. of 4895 and either work up from there or stay there.
I am not looking for a tackdriver with something this old but wanted to ensure it would at least hit the target.
Thanks again.

Jim

[Ricochet]

Ricochet,
Sorry 1800 fps.
The rifles I have are the original 1888 commission barrels designated 8x57J which is a .318 groove barrel instead of the 321-323 groove of the later barrels which are designated 8x57JS
That is why I am unsure of using the published 8x57JS data and am looking for anyone who has the data for the 8x57J.
As I posted in a long post down in the "Cast boolits for military rifles" section yesterday or the day before, the original loads for the G88 used .3185" bullets, but original German barrels were never .318". The first ones for the first couple of years of production had .314" bores and .3215" grooves, most of them had .311" bores and .3215" grooves, and the last ones from sometime in 1896 on had .311" bores and .323" grooves (as the Mauser 98s started out with.) The Germans carried over the common practice from the blackpowder days of cutting rifling grooves to a groove diameter larger than the bullet, which makes it less sensitive to dirt, fouling, oil and such. The Russians and Brits, among others, were still deliberately doing that in WWII with their battle rifles intended to function reliably in rough conditions. When the Germans adopted their "S" round, they still used a bullet that was .3215" on most of the straight sided body, but had a flared belt of .323" diameter at the very base. They intended it to work in the 88s as well as the 98s, and all the "S" marking on the 88s means is that they checked it with a gauge to see if the cartridges loaded with the "S" bullets, having fatter necks than the "J" rounds, would chamber properly. If not, they reamed the chamber to fit. .318" bores were used in German commercial rifles only. The problem with 88s is when they were fitted with Czech-made replacement barrels that reportedly may be as tight as .316" groove diameter. You can't know what you have for sure without slugging the bore. But cast boolits can be quite a bit larger than groove diameter and shoot quite safely. The Turks kept using the original German "S" round till the end of their 8mm rifles' service. Any 88s they had that "S" loads would blow up likely blew generations ago. Still, it's smart to load moderately.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have two one working,.try 13.5 grs RED dot with the 170/80 gr lead bullet.it should go about 1700/1800fts:coffeecom

[Beekeeper]

Ricochet,
I know that the weapons I have are .310 land and .318 groove .
I know they are part of the south American Cache of weapons and are Military weapons.
I spent almost 3 months cleaning them and at least 1 month on the bores alone.
I used an electronic bore cleaner with various cleaners to ensure I got it all out.
The bores of both have been slugged multiple times and always read .310 land and .318 groove
According to the historical records I have been able to find they are original and came that way.
Both barrels are pristine and will make good shooters if I do my part.
Part of me doing my part is getting a proper load for them with a paper patched boolit as that is what they originally shot.
I will try bcp477's load data and see.


Jim

[Ricochet]

Okey-doke. The tight Czech replacement barrels are well known among the South American '88s.

[1874Sharps]

BeeKeeper,

Have you considered paper patching up a 303 Brit boolit or a larger 30 cal boolit for you '88 Commission rifle? It seems that rifle would be a great candidate for paper patching.

[Beekeeper]

1874Sharps,
I have already taken .309 boolits, sized them to .308 and PP back to .318 so I have the boolits already.
The problem I have is lack of loading data for these old weapons.
I have manuals dating back 40 years and none of them have any load data for an 8x57J bullet or boolit.
I was hoping someone here had one that they have fired and still had the load data available.


Jim