45-70

[Lead Fred]

Ok todays dumb 45-70 question.

We all know we have to compress and fill 45-70 black powder cases.

I was told when using smokeless, you dont have to fill the case, yet some do.

Do I, dont I?

advantages, disadvantages.

I mainly load my 500 boolits with BP, but found a load for IMR I want to try out

While Im at it. Who uses milk carton discs, with out without a wax cookie between the BP and thier boolit.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Lead Fred;709759]Ok todays dumb 45-70 question.

We all know we have to compress and fill 45-70 black powder cases.

I was told when using smokeless, you dont have to fill the case, yet some do.

Do I, dont I?

advantages, disadvantages.

I mainly load my 500 boolits with BP, but found a load for IMR I want to try out

[QUOTE]

.............Er, if the IMR is 4198 I sure wouldn't fill the case with it. You'll find about 30 grains will suffice. Those who DO 'fill their cases' with smokless are probably using something like 4350 or 4831. If you had a 45-70 that'd stand being a "458 win mag wanna be" then a casefull of IMR3031 would be the powder of choice, but I'm not going to recommend anything of the kind.

That's the main problem, if you want to consider it a problem with the old time BP cartridges. Since BP was THE propellant, the only way to make'm more powerfull was to add more powder. Smokless has so much more energy per gain weight compared to BP you can for sure turn your nice rifle into a hand held bomb. Smokless loads for the 45-70 abound. You might want to ask on the Single Shot, or leverguns forum?

....................Buckshot

[stubshaft]

I think that it depends on the pressures you want to attain also. If IMR means 3031 you can't get enough in the case to blow up a 1895 or Ruger rifle.

It is predicated on the position sensitivity of the powder, especially in loads with an abundance of airspace. Some powders work best when held near the primer. Some powders don't care. Easy test to perform.

Load about 10 rounds with light load. Raise the muzzle 90deg. and slowly lower and shoot a 5 round group. For the next 5 round group lower the muzzle about 45deg. the shoot a group. If there is a difference in group size then you would/should use a filler.

I usually try to find loads that do not use a filler. I have used kapok, hollowfill, COW and even super grex as fillers and while they do work they are an additional pain (for me) to deal with. One of my shooting buddies has a Remington RB that has a bulged chamber. He doesn't know how it got there or what caused it. But, one thing is certain. Every load that he shot had a filler in it (blackpowder in Hawaii is rarer than snow).

[August]

Certain propellants are designed specifically to operate in large volume cases at low desities (i.e. small amounts). They are designed to work well regardless of their position in the case -- because, at low densities, the powder can end up in various locations as the gun is moved.

Among the powders that work well at low densities in the 45-70 are 4759, 5744, and Unique.

Of those, I have found very consistent (accurate) results from all of them, but prefer 4759 because it burns more completely in the loads I've worked with.

At any rate, I've heard many other shooters report that 4759 has been all aces in the 45-70/

[Lead Fred]

IMR 4895

min 40 gr 1284fps 19.7 cup

max 43 gr 1435fps 25.3 cup

Which will fill the case about 3/4 of the way.

I use it for several loads, I have lots of it.

Just wanted to make a load up with what I already have.

Ive found a load for 300 gr bullets. Its 59-65 grains.

Which 63-65 grains are full case loads.

Just wanted to know if I should use filler with the other loads.

Id be using cream of wheat, and or a spacer and a inert filler

Even IMR 4759 wont fill the case

[NickSS]

The 300 gr load you decribe will be safe in a Ruger No 1 but not in a sharps or rolling block. You do not have to fill the case with smokeless. I shoot a lot of 45-70 loaded with AA 5744, IMR 4198 and 3031. I have also used 4895. Most of my loads duplicate black powder velocities and I shoot them in various single shot rifles I use for BPCR matches for practice without spending a lot more time loading black powder. My typical practice load is a 400 gr bullet and 27 gr of 5744. For hunting I go a little hotter using the same 400 gr bullet and 42 gr of 3031 which gives me about 1400 fps. I have also used 54 gr of 4895 and a 400 gr Jacketed bullet for bear medicine in a Marlin 95. This load hurts on both sides.

As for milk carton wads I have used hundreds of them until I started using vegi wads. I have never used grease cookies and have always relied on the lube in the bullets grooves.

[bubba.50]

i use 25grs. 4759 with 350gr. boolits in 45-70 & 50-70 with no filler. they work good for me and are not position sensitive. i also use milk carton wads. two in my 50-70 with 60grs. goex 2f to take up a little space. fire formed brass and no crimp. would probably use a little crimp if hunting as boolits are hand seated in this load. good luck and good shootin', bubba.

[det]

My standby load for Trapdoors and up in 45-70 is 24 grains of 2400 powder with no filler and any bullet 300 to 500 grain. My remington Double just loves this charge with 500 grain cast bullets.

Det

[joel0407]

A decent heading to this topic would have been nice!

I dont mean to be negative just constructive.

[montana_charlie]

A decent heading to this topic would have been nice!
Yep, it sure isn't about what one would think when seeing it in a section aimed at BP loads.
CM

[Lead Fred]

It has to do with BP loads and smokeless, and 45-70.

I just wanted to know stuff about one vs the other.

I just ordered 1000 veggie discs for my BP loads

[joel0407]

I think your heading just needs more info than "45/70". You could have called in "45/70, smokeless v BP load density".

I try to get through all the new posts on 4 different forums each day. It just takes longer if you have to open up each new thread to find out the topic is some thing you cant help with or dont want to know.

The think the topic your asking about is not just 45/70 specific as other cartriges also require no air gap with BP but get less than half full with smokeless.

[Lead Fred]

It wont let you change the header and I always use the "today" button, so you get the newest replies first

[BPCR Bill]

I think that it depends on the pressures you want to attain also. If IMR means 3031 you can't get enough in the case to blow up a 1895 or Ruger rifle.

It is predicated on the position sensitivity of the powder, especially in loads with an abundance of airspace. Some powders work best when held near the primer. Some powders don't care. Easy test to perform.

Load about 10 rounds with light load. Raise the muzzle 90deg. and slowly lower and shoot a 5 round group. For the next 5 round group lower the muzzle about 45deg. the shoot a group. If there is a difference in group size then you would/should use a filler.

I usually try to find loads that do not use a filler. I have used kapok, hollowfill, COW and even super grex as fillers and while they do work they are an additional pain (for me) to deal with. One of my shooting buddies has a Remington RB that has a bulged chamber. He doesn't know how it got there or what caused it. But, one thing is certain. Every load that he shot had a filler in it (blackpowder in Hawaii is rarer than snow).

A "bulge' in the chamber?? Sounds like a ringed chamber, and that can happen with smokeless more readily than with black.

Regards,
Bill

[Catshooter]

I've been using Universal Clays in my Handi rifle and I'm liking it very much. No fillers, pistol primers.

Cat

[jgraham1]

Lead Fred,

What rifle are you shooting this load in?

Jerry

[405]

Most everything has already been covered. A couple of things to add or give a take on. The question about what gun is valid and it sure pays to watch pressures and heed published load data for your particular action type when jumping over to smokeless. "Rules" for load densities for smokeless in the 45-70 are no different than for any other loading. Most try to avoid the really slow or ball powders loaded to low load density.... in most any cartridge shooting most any bullet.

A while back LG did a really good and selfless job of putting together some pressure data for us here on the Forum. He has a 45-70 Siamese Mauser fitted with pressure sensors. My particular interest was the use of filler over 5744 loads. His data showed pressure data for my load of interest.... about 25 gr. of 5744 under a low density dacron filler under a 400 gr bullet. That data allowed me to shoot with confidence :) a similar load in a gun with a limited pressure rating.

I assume your 500 gr bullet is plain base... a BP type bullet. You could find that as you start shooting it over smokeless that there may be a fairly low velocity/pressure limit. Accuracy and leading problems may show up early. I shoot a 440 grain 11 BHN bullet with gas check over a mild charge of 5744 with low density dacron filler in a 45-70 to about 1200 fps. It is a one hole combination. If I try a comparable plain base bullet to a comparable velocity with any of the normal smokeless powders- 5744, 4759, 3031, 4198.... with or without filler... accuracy goes away and leading is bad. If I paper patch a 440 gr 6 BHN bullet and shoot it over BP in the same gun it turns back into a one hole shooter.

[Lead Fred]

a 1996 Handi

Been shootin 300-405s, wanna move up to the thumpers

and yes it is a plain base BP type boolit. Water quenched WW lead, so keeping them as close to 1300-1400fps as possible, I should be come anywhere near leading.

[405]

Not sure about the Handi as far as relative strength when comparing to one of the three 45-70 pressure load categories ( low Trapdoor, med Win 86/ Marlin 95, high Ruger single shot) but would think getting to 1300-1400 with normal loads would be OK with the right smokeless under the 500. But looking at the Lyman data you may be right at the top of the comfort zone of pressure at 26-27000 CUP.... not to mention the comfort zone of recoil. :)

When mentioning the filler in the 45-70 I shoot with 5744... it is a listed load in Lyman without the filler. I found that without the filler the chrono'd SDs were running 10-20. With the dacron filler, all other things being equal, I could keep the SDs under 10. Larry's pressure data indicated those fillered loads were well within the safe limits of the gun I was shooting. The filler is less than .5 gr dacron and the load density with the 25 gr. 5744 under the 440 gr. bullet is about 85% with my OAL.

When working on a new load/bullet may be a good idea to start at the "Trapdoor" pressure level and work up-- checking for accuracy and leading during the process.

[Lead Fred]

The Handi is at 42k and it will handle any load the Ruger One can.

I darn made sure I knew the cieling before I started messing around.

I push the 300s at about 200fps.

Im not going to push the 500s any where near that, so my shoulder should be ok.

The max load for 485gr FN is 43grs @ 25.3 CUP

Im going to start at 40 and work up. Ill know if the first round or two if its to much for my shoulder to handle.

[cajun shooter]

The problem with what you want to do will make itself clear when you pull the trigger. I own a BC and a 13 lb 1874 Sharps. The Saeco 745 that weighs 525 grs is a handful in my Sharps. I would not want to fire that round from my BC with it's 8 lbs of weight. I'm not recoil sensitive but shooting 40 rds or more of the thumper loads would not be in my fun day book. You are correct in that the heat treated H&R's will handle the high pressure loads but you might want to install a mercury cylinder for the other factor involved.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

One thing Nice about the shiloh Sharps, it will handle anything the Ruger #1 can and with aplomb.

That Handi rifle will kick the snot right out of youi.

KW
The Lunger

[Big Dave]

Just curious but has anyone used IMR 4350 in a 45-70? I have a Remington Hepburn falling block that I inherited from my dad. Shortly befor he died he had it rebarreled with a 30 inch heavy barrel. I finally got sights dovetailed into it and will try it out one of these days. I have molds for a flat nose at around 300 grains and a 400 grain round nose. Published data from Lyman etc. seem to all go for faster powders from Unique and 2400 up to 3031. nothing I have seen slower than that. Just thought with a long barrel maybe 4350 which I have a lot of might be a decent powder or is it that you cannot get enough in the case to do the job in such a large bore.

[Lead Fred]

All the data I read 4350 is just to slow.

Too much pressure for the case is what I read

Thats why Im using 4895, I have lots of both

[Boz330]

You probably won't get a very clean burn. The slower powders depend on that bottleneck to get pressures for a clean burn. I haven't tried 4350 but have tried 4831 and 8700 in large capacity straight wall cases and the result was lots of unburned powder and wimpy sounding reports.

Bob