Winchester M 1876 Repro's

[Grapeshot]

Well? Anyone out there have any information concerning their merits?

I own one of the Chapparells in .45-60 WCF and love it. Anyone else out there shoot them?

[jnovotny]

Bought one a few months ago and haven't had any time to work up a load yet. Real nice handleing and very well built. Get lots of compliments from the boys at the club, when I get there. What have you been shooting for a load? Not much load data out there for the 45 60.

[EDK]

Send a pm to Idaho Sharpshooter. He did a magazine article on the 1876 in 45/60 a couple years ago and can point you in the right direction. I've got the magazine buried somewhere in my junk LOL. (He's my not so little brother.)

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[muleequestrian]

I have one I shoot in .50-95. I like it well enough. I burn Trail Boss in it to toss a 350 grain boolit out of the end. I'm hunting with it this season. It should kill Bambi fairly well I reckon.

[Cannoneer]

I'm not sure where to post this, but since it is a big bore LEVER gun, it might fit in here. This is for those Pards that have gotten or are getting the Chapparel 1876 Winchester in .45-60 WCF.

First, if you are modifying .45/70 cases, you have to shorten your .45-70 cases from 2.10 inches to 1.88 inches. I used a Lyman case trimmer with a .45 Caliber pilot and a dial caliper to shorten one case to 1.88 inch.

I had a .45 Colt case trimming die that is used by using an RCBS press, a hacksaw and fine cut file. Lubricating the shortened .45-70 case, I ran it into this trim die until it was flush with the top. I then gave it a couple of passes with the file to true up the mouth.

Once that was done, I made sure that the die's locking nut was tightened down so it would not move.

The rest of the 89 cases I lubed and ran into the trim die until they protruded through the top of the die. I then used the hack saw to cut off the excess and the file to true up the mouth.

After I had all the cases I wanted, I champhered the case mouths.

At this point in time, the cases are a bit bottle necked in shape. I then ran them up through a .45/70 Sizing Die, then through a .45/70 case mouth belling die to set them up for a .458 bullet.

After seating Remington Large Rifle Magnum Primers, I loaded the cases with a variety of .458 bullets and a 50 grain by volume Hogdon 777. An NEI 390 grain Gas Checked Model, a Rapine 405 grain Hollow Based bullet and a Lee 405 grain RNFP were used to fire form the cases. To crimp them I first ran them SLOWLY up a .45 Colt Taper Crimp die.

Knowing that I was going to have to have a real crimping die and a sizing die for the .45/60 I CALLED Lee Precision using their contact number from their web site. They had the dies on hand and I ordered a sizing die and a seating/crimping die.

This did not prove to be a practical solution as the crimp die would not crimp. I may have trimmed the cases to short, or their die was not as precise as they claim. Anyway, I had a Lee .45-70 factory crimp die that I was not using, so I filed the sliding collet shorter, trying to crimp every few strokes until it would crimp the cases as slick as a whistle.

After Firing the rifle with my modified cases, I reloaded with the same bullets and primers, but reduced the powder charge to 40 grains, by volume, of 777, and used the new sizing die and seating die and the modified FCD. I took it to the range again and had a blast as I made an old frying pan dance at 100 yards with those heavy bullets.

I've reloaded a batch using some smokeless loads and some Hornady 350 grain JSP's and some Montana Swaged 300 grain RNFP's in .458 diameter. I hope to check them out by the end of next month, if the weather cooperates around the Midatlantic eastern states.

I checked the rifling and it is faster than the originals. It came out to 1:22 inches.

Sometime this month I will try some paper patched bullets and see how they work out. The weather is going to have to cooperate so I can cast some slugs to swage into PP projectiles

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have an origonal 45-60 so I guess I can comment.
First do not think you can hotrod it. It is still a Toggle Link System. BUT the 45-60 with a 260 or 300 grainer will flatten any critter roaming these 48 states with all the power I need under 75 yards. I use a modified hollow point mold that I made a new "Insert" for. It turns it into a shorter nose 275 grainer FLATNOSE.
Overall length is crittical in my rifle so that is the BIG why did I make a new insert in the Hollow point mold. Short nosed it fits the action well. It was that or shorten my brass another wack so I could use longer nosed boolits.
But keep it at Black Powder pressure + and it will not shoot loose. They are Clanky, Heavy, Long but alot of fun.

[j23]

...its a beautiful gun, after figuring out the thread pitch particulars, I mounted a Marbles tang and a Lyman 17A front sight.

I like the gun alot, aside from the god, awful trigger. Its simply horrid. Crisp letoff, after a 12 lb. take up. I would feel confident holding the bore to my chest and jumping off of a two story building with it cocked. [smilie=s:

I have been attempting to work up a load using the Lyman 515139 mold (350 grain FN) and trail boss. As of yet, no luck. I have been trying varying combinations of sized, unsized, lube types, powder weight. Nothing promising yet... about 6" at 50 yards.

I had hopes of dropping a deer with it (or an oncoming bus for that matter,) however I dont think the gun/loads are going to cooperate with less than 3 wks left until the season. :cbpour:

[Jbar4Ranch]

I bought a Chaparral cuz it was less expensive than a Uberti. Long story short, it was a *** and was replaced by Charter Arms. Number two was also a *** and was again replaced by Charter Arms. Number three .45-75 also had some problems, but was within my capabilities to fix and make work. The rear sight is complete garbage, and I'm looking for something to replace it with. On the plus side, even with the crappy rear sight, it landed me second place at a long range side match at the Montana state Cowboy Action championship last year. :-D

[405]

Don't know about merits other than the folks who post about no problems with them. About de-merits? yes, in addition to what jbar4ranch posted. A friend bought one to "go cheap" on a Win 76. Two trips back for repair and no joy. He sold it at discount (to someone aware of and familiar with the problem) and used the money to put a scope on his Sharps. The problem had something to do with feeding reliability? Not to P on the fire here but it's always good to hear more info rather than less. No info on other 76 repro makers.

I don't have a repro 76... the ones I have are 45-75 to simplify load development and reloading. The Win 73/76 is one interesting action type! And as weird as it seems they are fairly easy to work on. When working as designed and with the right ammo they are very, very smooth and reliable. A classy bit of history.

Also, to maybe save some headache? I see that Grafs has 45-60 Jamison brass for about 27.00 per 20.

[Don McDowell]

At cascity.com there's an entire section dedicated to the 76's

[j23]

Well.. honestly, I have heard TONS of horror stories with the Chapparral rifles... but doing more and more research into it, it appears those which were first imported with three digit serial numbers were those with the multitude of problems. Mine was bought from CDNN, solely on the basis of price (I belive $725, shipped? The gun was $699,) as I had heard some of the problems people were having, but decided that Id rather take the risk and pay half of the price, as I really wanted an 1876 in 50-95.

Fit and finish with mine are good.

The rear sight, as many have mentioned, was worthless, which didnt upset me much as I planned on either a Wm. Malcolm 3/4 tube 3x scope or a tang sight, (and still may go with the Malcolm if I can ever get the gun to shoot...)

The trigger, is an attorney designed abomination, but after you dry fire it about 200 times, it actually begins to wear in and become somewhat tolerable and predictable...

I took the sideplates off after hearing several members of the cascity forum complain of the machining flash inside the carrier... no such bad luck with mine, everything seems well and in order.

The gun has functioned fine with the loads that I have run through it... load them into the magazine tube, shuck the lever--wala! cartridge is brought up from the brass carrier, and rammed home into the chamber. shuck the lever again, and the thumb sized 50-95 case shoots up and straight over your head. Helpfully enough, if you simply move the lever slowly, the case is sitting there ready for you to remove it from teh carrier, before the carrier is send down a level for a fresh round... a helpful feature when you are paying over $2.00 for ONE piece of brass.

The barrel seems fine, I just am unable to find a load the gun likes... its consistantly inaccurate.. somewhat a side affect of the 50-95 caliber and the lack of much load data for which to vary your load to 'compromise' with the gun.

All and all, if the gun started shooting well with the next load I tried (and I have no misconseptions... if I could group five shots into 6 inches at 100 yards Id be tickled pink...) I would be completely pleased with the purchase.. so much in fact that I would invest in the 3x 18" 3/4 tube malcolm scope and mounts, which no doubt would improve accuracy at 100 yards by giving me a finer aiming point..

but alas.. 6 inch groups at 50 yards arent exactly making me jump for joy at this point.. but as far as quality of the gun... I dont think it is as bad as some of the owners make it out to be (though again, from my understanding, theirs are of the earlier serial number variety...)

On a side note, when I called CDNN and told them what I wanted, I made sure that they were able to look ON the box.. and select one with a higher four digit ( I believe it was four digit) serial numbers. The complaints were common enough that the sales rep advised me that I wasnt the first one to request a higher serial numbered 1876 Chappy...

[Grapeshot]

Greetings
I have an origonal 45-60 so I guess I can comment.
First do not think you can hotrod it. It is still a Toggle Link System. BUT the 45-60 with a 260 or 300 grainer will flatten any critter roaming these 48 states with all the power I need under 75 yards. I use a modified hollow point mold that I made a new "Insert" for. It turns it into a shorter nose 275 grainer FLATNOSE.
Overall length is crittical in my rifle so that is the BIG why did I make a new insert in the Hollow point mold. Short nosed it fits the action well. It was that or shorten my brass another wack so I could use longer nosed boolits.
But keep it at Black Powder pressure + and it will not shoot loose. They are Clanky, Heavy, Long but alot of fun.

Mike D over on the 1876 forum in cascity posted this awhile back:
I don't know how many of you fellers have read this, but this excerpt from Bill Hockett's 2002 article on the Centennial Winchester explains the strength testing that Winchester performed on the new model. it is a bit of am eye opener.

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."



http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17995.0.html

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I am familiar with that test. It is one thing to fire a couple HOT loads in a new rifle. The real test is how long does a weak system hold up to hundreds of HOT loads.
IF the 1876 was such a strong rifle... why did Winchester scrap it for the 1886 design.. or why did Mr. Browning even design it ?

[Bob Busetti]

I bought a Chappy in May. I had to tahe it apart to get the metal chips out of the action. Trigger pull terrible, sloppy rear sight. I changed both front & rear sights.
It tried 350 gr. cast sized to .512. 4" groups at 75 yds. I tried 3031, 4198, 4350, & Rx7.
I tried shooting the boolits unsized , lubed with the45/45/10 lube with 35.5 Rx7. What a difference. 1 1/2" groups at 75 yds. I didn't think the gun would ever shoot. If you buy one, you can count on taking the side plates and butt stock off to get the metal chips out of the action.
I think CDNN should sell them as kit guns for $200 less.
Bob

[missionary5155]

Once again it sounds like a case of fat throats... As years and more rifles come along I am more convinced the throat is the most impostant area that must be well fitted.

[Rafe Covington]

I bought 2 1876 rifles from Taylors, both rifles are very well made. Just got brass to reload the 40-60 and 50-95, brother has a 1876 in 45-75. He has killed several deer and a moose with his.

buffalohunter:redneck:

[KirkD]

I have an original '76 in 45-60, but have fondled a Uberti '76 a few times at the local supplier and examined it carefully. The fit and finish are, frankly, beautiful. You may also want to consider the Uberti '76 carbine available through Cimarron Firearms. It is so gorgeous that it has been sorely tempting me for many months now.

[Bob Busetti]

I guess I failed to say that my as cast boolits were .515 Lyman 340 gr. boolit.
Bob