Why not just breech seat?

[Nobade]

I was just re-reading an article in Black Powder Cartridge News about the dimensions of a paper patch chamber. The bullet it held into the case only 1/8", with a wad and powder behind it. So I wondered, why? Couldn't you just fill the case to the brim, put a light crimp on it to hold the wad, and use it to seat the bullet? Then you wouldn't have to bother with sizing the cases or messing up the bullet base. I mention this because I had been trying something similar with my 45-70 Sharps. Using one case, I muzzle loaded it with 80 to 100 grains of powder and a bore size grease groove bullet, in an effort to get the bullet ahead of the throat and into the rifling. It shot better than it ever did with fixed ammunition, even though I obviously couldn't compress the powder much at all.

[Don McDowell]

There are some folks that breechseat. Only thing is you don't want to crimp the case mouth, as that won't let the bullet into the case, might end up with a bit of airspace. Wads should stay put in the case without crimping before the bullet enters. Some even leave the slightest flare on the case mouth to guide the bullet into the case.
There's also some that don't quite swallow the rule of thumb about compression either,and load cartridges that the bullet/wad and powder are in firm contact, and get along fine.
It all boils down to each shooter doing the load developement and testing to see what works best in his/her rifle.

[montana_charlie]

Using one case, I muzzle loaded it with 80 to 100 grains of powder and a bore size grease groove bullet,

I obviously couldn't compress the powder much at all.
"Breech seating" involves pushing the bullet up into the rifling from the open breech, then loading a charged case behind it.

If I understand what you described, you had an empty, primed, case chambered...and you poured 80 to 100 grains of powder in from the muzzle.

Have I got that right so far?

Depending on the brand of the brass, some guys have trouble getting 70 (or more) grains of powder inside a 45/70 case without drop tubing or vibrating.
Even then, they would probably run out of room if the charge got much above 75 grains.

However much they manage to sift in there, they then compress it enough to accept a wad (for breech seating)...or even more to accept a bullet.

Your uncompressed charge is filling the case AND some portion of the throat and bore...with a greased bullet sitting on top.

While that may be similar to a loading technique descriped by a guy named Pope, you aren't using the associated false muzzle which was needed to start the tight-fitting bullet into the rifling...and he loaded charged cases into the chamber just as in breech seating.

He didn't pour the powder down the barrel.

Your technique may work quite well for you, but it sounds like you would be very happy with a Gibbs rifle instead of a Sharps.

CM

[Nobade]

Yeah, my question was in two parts. I described what I had been trying with my rifle, in an attempt to get the bullet past the throat to see what happened. It worked well. And yes, kind of like a Gibbs rifle. But the question about the paper patched breech seated bullets was not exactly the same thing. I wondered why you would want to have only 1/8 inch of bullet in the case, why not keep them seperate and use the case full of powder to seat the bullet into the rifling? Is there any reason not to, other than you have two things to handle instead of one every time you load your rifle. You're going to wipe between shots anyway, so it's not going to add much to your reload time.

[powderburnerr]

if it works , do it , I have 2 tenths in the case and carry mine in an ammo belt so I do not want two boxes of com ponents while I am walking around,fixed ammo is what I like and it
works for me.............Dean

[Lead pot]

I breach seat and load like Powderburnerr too.

The breach seating does have the advantage in accuracy using PP or GG bullets but it does have a disadvantage for hunting or in matches were time is involved.
I charge a case with powder and compress like I normally do and fill the space with loose powder and a .060 card over the powder and roll a slight crimp to hold the wad.
No lube usually for a PP bullet because I run a couple patches through and shoot with a clean bore, and the patched bullet is close to groove diameter.
This is what I use for a breach seating tool and you can see what the charged case looks like.
When the bullet is seated it is all the way in the throat and when the case is loaded it will seat tight on the bullet base. The tool is adjustable so you can seat it as deep as you need it and there is no distortion in the bullet side wall when it upsets when it is fired because it is groove diameter already but you will still have the nose get set back depending the hardness of the alloyand the length of the ogive.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_1182.jpg

[NickSS]

I knew an old guy some 38 years ago who was the first person I ever met who really knew how to shoot. He was in his 70s at the time and shot muzzle breach loaders just like Pope did around 100 years ago. He would clean the bore after a shot. Deprime his one case, reprime, throw a small charge of red dot powder and then fill the case with a measured charge of black powder and thumb seat a wad over it. He then loaded the case into his rifle. Next he stood the butt on the ground, put a muzzle protector on the muzzle, seated a cross shaped paper patch into a slight recess in the face of the muzzle protector, then thumb seat a slug into the muzzle protector. The patch surrounded the slug as it was pushed in. Once the slug was positioned, he would clip a tool the a pair of lugs on the muzzle protector. This tool had two handles that when pulled out and down would drive a rammer down intot he bore about six inches. He then would unclip the tool and run the bullet down the bore with a wood ram rod till a mark on the rod was flush with the top of the muzzle protector. The Muzzle protector and ramrod was removed and he was ready to fire his shot. He would shoot only at 200 yards and fire 20 rounds for a string. His gun was a 38-55 (at least that was the case used and the bullet size) and he got 20 shot groups with iron sights that you could easily cover with a silver dollar. I watched him shoot that way a lot but he could also shoot off hand groups with an old springfield 03 at 200 yards which scored in the upper 190s on for 20 shots on a standard NRA high power target and he always complained that he could not see as well as he used to. He tout me to shoot and I was never as good as he on my best day.

[Johnny bravo]

I knew an old guy some 38 years ago who was the first person I ever met who really knew how to shoot. He was in his 70s at the time and shot muzzle breach loaders just like Pope did around 100 years ago. He would clean the bore after a shot. Deprime his one case, reprime, throw a small charge of red dot powder and then fill the case with a measured charge of black powder and thumb seat a wad over it. He then loaded the case into his rifle. Next he stood the butt on the ground, put a muzzle protector on the muzzle, seated a cross shaped paper patch into a slight recess in the face of the muzzle protector, then thumb seat a slug into the muzzle protector. The patch surrounded the slug as it was pushed in. Once the slug was positioned, he would clip a tool the a pair of lugs on the muzzle protector. This tool had two handles that when pulled out and down would drive a rammer down intot he bore about six inches. He then would unclip the tool and run the bullet down the bore with a wood ram rod till a mark on the rod was flush with the top of the muzzle protector. The Muzzle protector and ramrod was removed and he was ready to fire his shot. He would shoot only at 200 yards and fire 20 rounds for a string. His gun was a 38-55 (at least that was the case used and the bullet size) and he got 20 shot groups with iron sights that you could easily cover with a silver dollar. I watched him shoot that way a lot but he could also shoot off hand groups with an old springfield 03 at 200 yards which scored in the upper 190s on for 20 shots on a standard NRA high power target and he always complained that he could not see as well as he used to. He tout me to shoot and I was never as good as he on my best day.

NickSS, that’s a great story. I guess it would have taken ages for him to fire those 20 shots? I would love to meet someone like that in my life time. Anymore interesting stories like that? I’d love to hear them.

Regards,
JB

[TAWILDCATT]

I know a old timer up in Mass that seats his bullet with the old time tool and then puts the loaded case in.there are a lot of them about.we just dont know them.I think his gun is a shutzen?32/40.I have watched him many times.

[calaloo]

Johnny Bravo

There are quite a few folks who still shoot the old way. Visit assra.com and find a schuetzen match near you. A good time is guaranteed.

[felix]

Actually, with boolits, it is by far the best way. Why? the boolit does not get squashed when loading. It is very, very difficult to have loaded rounds, and six months later have the boolits the same diameter after pulled back out of the case gently. I have found as much as 0.0015 diameter compression from sized diameter, and that is with 22 case necks turned to 0.011, once and twice fired being compressed merely 0.002 before loading. This substantiates the requirements for fast ignition with these rounds. ... felix

[Lead pot]

There are several contributing factors to accuracy when breach seating. All of the below factors are eliminated when you breach seat.

Chamber misalignment with the bore.
Block or bolt alignment with the barrel.
Bullet run out when seating the bullet in the case.
bullet upset when it is fired in the case. It gets expanded to the chamber and than gets swaged back down as it enters the throat.
Case neck inconsistencies were you have inconsistent neck tension.
When the bullet is breach seated in a clean barrel it will have the same friction when it starts down the barrel.

[Johnny bravo]

Johnny Bravo

There are quite a few folks who still shoot the old way. Visit assra.com and find a schuetzen match near you. A good time is guaranteed.

I would like to, but I am on the other side of the Atlantic. Here in the UK, we don’t do schuetzen matches, atleast not to my knowledge.

I do know that the schuetzen shooters breech seat as it’s their ‘tradition’. But it would be grand to see a large calibre Sharps’ rifle shooter doing it on the silhouette or long range. IIRC, I recall Paul Matthews mentions one of his friends – Snover, I think- did this sort of breech seating during the silhouette matches and got good results. I would like to try this personally one day, time permitting.

[HPT]

I have muzzleloaded groove dia paperpatched bullets with some success. The patch was glued-on. Have not tried traditional patching @ groove diameter (no glue) but it might shoot better?

The bullet is .506 dia grease grooved bullet 565 gr from a Hoch custom mould that I patch up to .512 dia using 2 wraps of dress pattern paper soaked in 50/50 water and wood glue. Once dried I cut off the tail so the bullet base is flat, then coat bullet w/spray on dry moly.

Loading will not cut thru the paper (the bullet becomes rifled under the paper without tearing the paper) I have never found paper, so think the paper remains intact.

The reason I designed a grooved bullet was to cut down the friction of loading.

BTW I choke bored the barrel in addition to turning the muzzle for the guide bullet starter that I built

The breechplug is removable so you can "prerifle" bullets to take along hunting without taking along the guide starter.

On my next gun, I just used a piece of barrel & made a "prerifling" die to save the trouble of building the guide starter (but choke bored the second gun as well)

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_0751.jpg

[calaloo]

Johnny Bravo

Sorry I did not notice you were in the U.K. Here is a contact for you. "U.K. Schuetzen Group". The contact name and number is; Roger 44-1424 202236.

[Southern Son]

Nobade, I don't know if someone has said this, but one reason for having fixed ammo with only 1/8 inch in the case is because the ammo is FIXED and the rule book says you have to have fixed ammo. It might fall apart at the drop of a hat, but it is still fixed. With the breach seating from the muzzle, I think I remember reading that Pope loaded them like that to prevent damage to the boolit base. If you push it in from the muzzle (using the false muzzle as a guide), the lead displaces toward the tip of the boolit, not down around the base like he thought that it did if you push it in from the breach. I think that is what I remember, but I might have forgot.

[Johnny bravo]

Johnny Bravo

Sorry I did not notice you were in the U.K. Here is a contact for you. "U.K. Schuetzen Group". The contact name and number is; Roger 44-1424 202236.

Thanks calaloo. Much obliged.

[ResearchPress]

In the famous 1874 Ireland/America match at Creedmoor, Henry Fulton of the US team loaded his bullet from the muzzle of his Remington. He was top scorer in the match. The practice was later banned in competition by the NRA of America.

David