World War II .45 ACPs

[Mike Venturino]

This is a photo of my World War II (and some could be WWI) .45 ACP firearms. From left: M1 Thompson, S&W Model 1917, Colt 1911, M3 grease gun, Colt Model 1917 and Colt 1911A1.

I don't have a Reising but a friend does so I've got some experience with one. Also don't have one of those single shot "Liberators" that were dropped to resistance forces in Europe. They were supposed to use its single shot to shoot a German and take his weapon. I wonder what happened if a 2nd shot was needed? In fact I wonder if there was ever a documented case of a Liberator being used?

Anyway, I thought some of you might like this photo.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/10-28-09067LargeWebview.jpg



MLV

[scrapcan]

I saw a liberator at the Colorado Gun collectors 2009 show. It had the drop box and paper with it. It was priced at, well lets just say about three of the guns in your picture above. I did handle it just to say I had seen one.

[BoolitBill]

A great collection Mike! I never owned a fully automatic gun but had a couple of friends who did and got to shoot them. I enjoyed the Thompson but it weighed more than I expected. The "Grease Gun" was more enjoyable for me to shoot. It seemed to have a slower rate of fire than the Thompson and I was better able to control it during full auto. My friend and I would load every night for a week and then shoot it all in less than an hour. Without a doubt the most fun I ever had shooting.

[S.R.Custom]

Gun porn is always appreciated. But it seems to me you need a Winchester trench gun or two as well.

I saw a Liberator once at a gunshow in the late 90s. The guy wanted $750 for it.... I suspect not too many of them got used for what they were intended for. I mean, it didn't look like anything I'd want to hold in my hand and fire. Cheap roller skates of the day were more substantial.

Old wartime pieces are always interesting... You get to wondering where they've been, what they've seen, what they've done. And they are tangible links to a time when this country was at its best. Thanks for posting them.

[mike in co]

i have 1919/1918 45acp ammo.......

[Mike Venturino]

Glad you guys liked the photo. It will be in a GUNS Magazine article sometime this winter. Funny, I can shoot the 1911s pretty darn good even if I do say so myself. I can't hit squat with the 1917s firing double action, but do ok with them in single action. I wonder how the soldiers who fired them in action used them?

Mike

[GabbyM]

A fellow I used to work with was in a combat engineers tank during the first gulf war. It's a converted M-60 (M-1??)with a short chamber short barrel 155mm gun and berm plow. Anyway they still used the M-3 grease gun as their's a rack for it to be handy by one of the top hatches. Never used the M3 as it stayed in the tank. I believe all the M-60 tanks had one hung their. And of course the old 1911 is still going.

My uncle loved the old M3. Liked to tell a story of the range instructor stopping him half way through a target course because he was cutting all the 2 X 4's off as he dropped all the rounds in the center of target. lol. Like BoolitBill stated the M3 had a slow rate of fire and if you got the timing down to hold it just so so tight it would return from recoil on target to punch a big hole just like the Sten guns were set up to do. Just had bigger holes with the M3.

In the movie The Dirty Dozen their M3's spewed out a stream of bullets complete with steady flame out the barrel. But that's Hollywood.

I had an old Sailor tell me with the Thomson they used to keep a stirrup size loop in the sling with a clip to attach to the rear sling mount. Unclipped the sling from the but stock, put your foot through the stirrup, add tension then hose away. He said it worked good. No Tommy gun handy for me to try out the technique. But if he said it worked you can bet it did.

[StarMetal]

A fellow I used to work with was in a combat engineers tank during the first gulf war. It's a converted M-60 (M-1??)with a short chamber short barrel 155mm gun and berm plow. Anyway they still used the M-3 grease gun as their's a rack for it to be handy by one of the top hatches. Never used the M3 as it stayed in the tank. I believe all the M-60 tanks had one hung their. And of course the old 1911 is still going.

My uncle loved the old M3. Liked to tell a story of the range instructor stopping him half way through a target course because he was cutting all the 2 X 4's off as he dropped all the rounds in the center of target. lol. Like BoolitBill stated the M3 had a slow rate of fire and if you got the timing down to hold it just so so tight it would return from recoil on target to punch a big hole just like the Sten guns were set up to do. Just had bigger holes with the M3.

In the movie The Dirty Dozen their M3's spewed out a stream of bullets complete with steady flame out the barrel. But that's Hollywood.

I had an old Sailor tell me with the Thomson they used to keep a stirrup size loop in the sling with a clip to attach to the rear sling mount. Unclipped the sling from the but stock, put your foot through the stirrup, add tension then hose away. He said it worked good. No Tommy gun handy for me to try out the technique. But if he said it worked you can bet it did.

I believe that Tommy story is a wives tale. :bigsmyl2:

Same as holding it sideways and it would spray horizontal.

Joe

[GabbyM]

I can't hit squat with the 1917s firing double action, but do ok with them in single action. I wonder how the soldiers who fired them in action used them?

Mike

My guess would be it would all depended upon how close the oncoming bayonet was.

[sundog]

Mike, nice pic. Not too many folks have both S&W and Colt 1917s. Aside from the cylinder release, the appear pretty much the same. EXCEPT, for the barrel and front sight. Well, plunger is different, too. The barrels are definitely different. Well, the guns are different, even though they are both 1917s. History behind them and fielding the 1911 is interesting. Over the years, I've shot several with both GI ball and cast loads. Fine pieces, they are. 45 AR which came along after the Great War is an improvement over the clips, but one would have to admit, the fastest ever revolver speed loader is a full clip.

[GabbyM]

I believe that Tommy story is a wives tale. :bigsmyl2:

Same as holding it sideways and it would spray horizontal.

Joe

He said an old chief showed it to him. Of course that was on the shooting range. In combat it would be a bit clumsy. He had plenty of WWII stories to tell without making any up. Served on a six gun Destroyer. Deaf in one ear from a bomb going off in the water fifty foot from the ship as it was tied up in Pearl Harbor. Ernie Sims from Windsor, Illinois.

[Mike Venturino]

Sundog: You might find this interesting. The Colt 1917 is perfectly accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets with any number of powders. The S&W 1917 keyholes every single cast bullet I've fired through it, again with any number of powders. It handles FMJ factory loads and handloads just fine.

MLV

[stephen perry]

Mike
Is there a difference in barrel twists in the 1917 Colt and the S&W 45.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Char-Gar]

I was in Collectors Firearms in Houston two months ago and they have four or five Liberators in various conditions. Pricy little boogers!

[Hunter]

Very nice collection.

[KYCaster]

I once had the pleasure of watching Boz330 play with a grease gun on a silhouette range. None of those little steel critters was safe. I was impressed.

I have also had the opportunity to shoot Thompsons on several occasions and I've come to the conclusion that most of those foot-in-the-sling, hold-it-sideways monday morning quarter back techniques are pretty much a bunch of BS. I've known a few people who make it look easy (my father included) but, like many other things, looks are decieving. That 2+ lbs of recriprocating bolt makes the Thompson a challenge.

A very nice collection Mike, you have good taste.

Jerry

[StarMetal]

I once had the pleasure of watching Boz330 play with a grease gun on a silhouette range. None of those little steel critters was safe. I was impressed.

I have also had the opportunity to shoot Thompsons on several occasions and I've come to the conclusion that most of those foot-in-the-sling, hold-it-sideways monday morning quarter back techniques are pretty much a bunch of BS. I've known a few people who make it look easy (my father included) but, like many other things, looks are decieving. That 2+ lbs of recriprocating bolt makes the Thompson a challenge.

A very nice collection Mike, you have good taste.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

I didn't want to say, but you had the courage. You are correct about the large heavy bolt making the Tommy hard to handle, but the guns massive weight helps control it some too. Recently ond Lock N Load with Ron Emery he tried to write the letter G for gunny with a Thompson and a MP40. It actually succeeded with the Thomspon, but not with the MP40 which is suppose to be easier to handle. I've seen them all and really don't think Thompsons are all that bad.

Joe

[Piedmont]

I live 1917 Smiths.

Mike V, You might want to try larger bullets in the 1917, like .453+".

[Shepherd2]

There is a gun auction web site www.gunrunnerauctions.com that had Liberator in their last auction. The thing went for $1810. The auction is closed now but it is still on the site under Military Firearms if you want to take a look.

[Mike Venturino]

Piedmont: Tried that at .454". No luck.

[Boz330]

I once had the pleasure of watching Boz330 play with a grease gun on a silhouette range. None of those little steel critters was safe. I was impressed.

I have also had the opportunity to shoot Thompsons on several occasions and I've come to the conclusion that most of those foot-in-the-sling, hold-it-sideways monday morning quarter back techniques are pretty much a bunch of BS. I've known a few people who make it look easy (my father included) but, like many other things, looks are decieving. That 2+ lbs of recriprocating bolt makes the Thompson a challenge.

A very nice collection Mike, you have good taste.

Jerry

As someone already pointed out the Grease Gun was standard fare on a tank, along with the M-2, 30 carbine, 30 Browning, and everyone carried a 1911. The only problem with the Grease Gun was that they didn't let us shoot it enough.
I did qualify Expert with Tank Weapons.:bigsmyl2:
Nothing like the proper application of high explosive projectiles up to 3600 meters.
The Grease Gun was manufactured for $7.50 during WWII IIRC. I wish that I had gotten one when they were still reasonable, a fun little gun for sure.

Bob

[mtgrs737]

My dad told me he qualified "Expert" with the Tommy gun in WWII. He said they ran you though a course of fire shooting at pop up targets from the hip. He also told me that he and a buddy burned up a pair of Tommy guns by shooting up a few stolen cases of ammo on a river bank in the Islands. He said that sometimes they got ammo with no powder in them and the primer was all that drove the bullet free of the barrel. Dad said that he traded the burnt up barreled Tommy gun for a carbine which he didn't like much. May God bless all our war hero's every last one of them.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
NICE photo. Last Tommy I shot was out at Phoenix "Shooters World".
The M3a Grease Gun was one of the best hammers I ever used to break off a padlock on the loaders hatch of an M60A1 tank. Yes they were light weight. Yes they were easily stored inside a turret or drivers compartment. But they sure were nothing more than a modified headlight with a barrel attached.... a clear reflection of the $13 it cost to produce them. Good caliber ! Piece of junk delivery system. In Germany I made arrangments to loose mine and gain a pump 12 guage. Cooks can be rather helpful.
My caliber.45 Colt frame was so worn out the armor (Fred) tried real hard to get it condemed BUT there was a stratigec shortage of Tank crewman personal weapons and I had to soilder on with that rattle trap. It never failed to function but was utterly worthless past 10 yards. Mine generally rode all missions in the map case or one of the vision block storage bins. Again a GREAT caliber! I wish I could have carried the 1943 Remington Rand that is sitting nearby. Some surface wear but the barrel looked unfired when I bought it.
Our country has a long history of some fine weapons.... and others ??? Sadly the 45 Colts were not updated , repaired, or new aquisitioned. THAT IS ONE FINE TOOL !

[StarMetal]

Piedmont: Tried that at .454". No luck.

Mike,

Have you measured your cylinder throats? If they are smaller then the bore/groove doesn't matter what size cast bullet you shoot, they will size it down too small each time.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Joe: Five of the 1917's chamber mouths are .454". One will accept a .455" plug.

By the way according to Frank Iannamico's research WW2 grease guns cost about $18 from Guide Lamp but the bolts actually came from another outift in New England and cost a little under $3.00 each. Base price to the government was just shy of $21. That's according his his book American Thunder.

MLV

[StarMetal]

Joe: Five of the 1917's chamber mouths are .454". One will accept a .455" plug.

By the way according to Frank Iannamico's research WW2 grease guns cost about $18 from Guide Lamp but the bolts actually came from another outift in New England and cost a little under $3.00 each. Base price to the government was just shy of $21. That's according his his book American Thunder.

MLV

Thanks Mike,

Let's try maybe very very shallow rifling? Have you tried harder alloys?

Joe

[45 2.1]

Sundog: You might find this interesting. The Colt 1917 is perfectly accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets with any number of powders. The S&W 1917 keyholes every single cast bullet I've fired through it, again with any number of powders. It handles FMJ factory loads and handloads just fine.

MLV

RCBS has a special order boolit for the 455 Webley that is a hollow base and weighs 265 gr. Try it, it works in the oversize cylinders and bores providing very good accuracy.

[corvette8n]

Hey Mike:
Nice collection, makes me feel like I was born 25 years too late.
I just got done reading
Touched with fire : The land war in the South Pacific by Eric M. Bergerud
My father fought at Biak, Hollandia and Leyte.

[Mike Venturino]

Joe & 45-2.1: Tried linotype and tried the RCBS .455 mould in 1-20 tin to lead and linotype. No go with either.

I need to get some time to just focus on that one gun and try figuring it out. What I want is to find a load that will shoot good in all those .45 ACPs. Right now the S&W is the odd man out. The others do just fine with cast bullets.

MLV

[MtGun44]

Mike,

I had horrible accy with cast in my Brazilian contract 1937 S&W until I went back a reread Elmer's
comments on it. I loaded his 452453 cast at .454 diam of medium alloy, sized (not actually
changed diam) to .454. Still no luck until I gingerly worked up to Elmer's load. I never
had the guts to go all the way to 7.5 Gr Unique, but at 7.0 it became accurate and shot very
close to the sights, centered and a bit low at 25 yds. Most lower power loads were inaccurate
and shot well left of POA.

By the way, throats are .454 in my pistol.

Bill

[45nut]

I have the Lyman HB 45 boolit mold here,, if you want to try it let me know Mike.
Also have the TM for that grease gun here if you don't.

[Mike Venturino]

45nut: Thanks I appreciate the offer, but I'm trying to come up with one .45 ACP load, or actually one with cast and one with jacketed, that works in all six of those .45 ACPs. I've got it half done with the jacketed and five out of six with the cast. I just need to dedicate some time to that S&W by itself.

As for the grease gun TM, I have already bought one, but again I appreciate the offer.

Mike V.

[Char-Gar]

Mike.. The Colt New Service in all it's dress and uniforms is my all time favorite hangun. I have had dozens over the past 50 years and have several now including a real nice 1917. I don't know anybody, including myself that can claim to be truly good shooting DA with one of those handguns.

Smiths are a different deal and the smaller frame Official Police and Police Positive can be fired DA with a fair degree of accuracy, but those huge New Service pistols just don't fit the human hand when fired DA. You can do it OK for close up and personal work, but not fine and/or far.

Call me wierd, but I have never cared for SA guns including the Colt SAA. In my younger days the New Service could be bought in good shape for $35.00 to $45.00 and came in 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 and 45 ACP. I never did have one in 44 Spl or Russian.

For many years I carried a 4.5" NA is 45 Colt everywhere I went outdoor. I could hit very well with it SA and up to 7 feet :-), I was a DA snake with it.

[BarryinIN]

Nice picture of a nice group of guns.

I priced Grease Guns about 20 years ago and even knowing what MGs brought, I was just shocked. Then I found there just aren't that many transferable Grease Guns out there compared to other SMGs. Supply and demand.



I don't have a Reising but a friend does so I've got some experience with one.

I have one. First SMG I owned. But of course, it's been the same for many Class 3 guys since they are/were one of the "cheapest" ways in.
Something I never could figure out was with Reisings and MACs being the "entry level priced" SMGs, I wondered why anyone would choose a MAC that might have been made last month over something with some WWII/USMC history (albeit not the best history).

Anyway, it's an interesting SMG, and I like that it has some history (I have an M1941 Johnson, and there is a connection of sorts as their paths crossed) but I wouldn't want to go to war with it. It takes some fiddling to get each magazine working right, then you have to ensure the thin, easily bent feed lips stay shaped correctly.

The semi-locked rocking bolt design that allows it to have a lighter bolt (and overall weight/size) also makes a great "stoppage enhancer". It doesn't take much crud in the receiver cutout to keep the bolt from fully engaging, which in turn won't allow the bolt to fully close. And that cutout is located right where it can catch the most crud.
That was probably OK for the wartime factory and railroad guard use they ended up assigned to (freeing up more suitable weapons) and for the post-war police use where they could stay clean. An enviroment like a beach landing was a different story.

And like many SMGs, the "book" rate of fire is way off. I think they claim around 700 rpm, but I don't think I've seen one go lower than 900 rpm against a shot timer.
It would be a really neat SMG if it ran at Grease Gun speed. What control the GG already has should be even better with the "real" stock of the Reising.

It is a handy little thing, though, something that can't be said for some SMGs of the era. I consider it basically a big bore M1 Carbine sometimes.


In fact I wonder if there was ever a documented case of a Liberator being used?

I have often wondered the same thing.

I know part of their purpose was the psycological effect of German soldiers knowing there were suddenly a million easily concealed pistols out there among the French, which makes some sense, but I haven't read anything saying that effect was achieved either. I have never heard of anyone finding a diary or letter from a German soldier saying: "News arrived today of little American pistols reaching the hands of the French. Am scared. Very scared."
Then again, the CIA revived the idea 20 years later in Vietnam with the throwaway 9mm "Deer Gun", so someone thought it was a good idea. That doesn't mean it was.

[Dale53]

In the Forties, my father (who was as serious a "gunny" as I am) had a 1917 Colt. It wouldn't shoot and examination showed that the barrel was worn out. The revolver was in fine shape in general, but corrosive ammo had "done in" the barrel. Cincinnati's Joe Lamping, a rather famous gunsmith at the time, rebarreled it with a 5" solid rib barrel and after that it shot like a house afire. I have NO idea where that barrel came from but it was beautiful (the full length rib was grooved all the way with a patridge front sight).

The Colt had an excellent single action trigger pull but the double action wasn't something to write home about. The Smith's had it all over the Colt's when it came to double action.

At any rate, Dad sold the Colt to finance a new S&W Model 1950 target in .45 ACP, then later traded that for a new S&W 1955 Target model in .45 ACP (had the new heavy barrel). That 1955 was a shooting machine.

FWIW
Dale53

[doubs43]

I was stationed in England back in the 1980's and joined a local "pistol club". One man who became a very good friend had served in the British Army during WW2. He was in communications and often delivered dispatches by motorcycle. He served in England, North Africa and Italy that I know of.

As a sidearm he was offered a S&W revolver chambered in .38 S&W. He claimed that .38 S&W ammunition was so scarce that firing even a single round required filling out paperwork so he refused the revolver. Instead, he requested and was issued a Thompson SMG. There was no shortage of .45 ACP cartridges and he could get all he wanted without paperwork.

Once he had the Thompson, he did some "trading" with an American GI for a 1911A1 that he used throughout the remainder of the war. He liked the combination that used the same cartridge and was knowledgeable enough to know that the .45 ACP is much superior to the .38 S&W.

One Sunday afternoon at the club, Len smiled and pulled out that very 1911A1. He handed it to me with a full magazine of cartridges and said "Go shoot it!" I did and felt honored to be permitted to shoot it. I can also attest that even in his 60's, Len was a fine rifle shot.

[stephen perry]

I like most kinds of guns military guns the least but that's my take. I can admire most any gun but not their well heeled owners. That is where I see the gun environment going. The old guys and their old guns are my favorites.

Show me a better shotgun than a Winchester Model 12 same with a Remington 700. As far as pistolas my Colt 45 Gold Cup will play any game you want to play.

Technocrats are demanding variations of what has worked for the rest of us for many many years.

I think this is a Cast Forum but don't see much on the Military page. Why is that why not talk Military Cast even back to 18th century.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Boz330]

Mike, what do you think of the Reising Gun? I had a chance to shoot one a number of years back and I was impressed with it, especially the fact that it gobbled up 200g semi wadcutters without a hiccup.
I have heard that it had it's problems though. The one I shot was for sale for $350 + the tax stamp, which seemed like a lot at the time. Would have been pretty cheap by today's standards though.

Bob

[Mike Venturino]

Bob: A friend has a Reising. Its accurate and fairly easy to hit with but I see why they decided it was better for use in civilization. It would be easy to fill up the opening where you insert your forefinger to cock it with dirt. Also my friend has a lot of trouble with magazines. A few of his function fine but others are problematic. Also 12 rounds doesn't go that far, but its light weight is a bonus.

By the way, I just got in a Finnish M39 rifle fitted with a modern scope made in Belarus. I only fired 20 rounds this morning cause the winds are over 30 mph here right now, but what a great shooter!

MLV

[TAWILDCATT]

Its no BS that you can fire the Thompson on its side and also drop the sling and step on it.I had a tin can Lt teach me.and he was a fantastic shooter.
BUT you have to use a 1928 with cutts comp.not the MIAI.
as to the reising my friend used one in the pacific and liked it but said not to fill the mag leave two short.he had 20 rd mags.I have a semi,and mine does not have the cut so you use a solid hammer with out the hole.If you are aware the win 1903? 351 ect used the same charging system.
the navy had the 1928 thompsons. and worse than wore out 1903s.the marines in the pacific had 1903 and most were low numbered.:coffeecom

[pb man]

Mike, how about an article on your work up of a load for your S&W?

[The Virginian]

I have had good lucj with the .453" sized RN 230 grain bullet behind 5.0-5.4 grains of 231 in my S&W 1917 and it shoots very accurately. BTW: Do you still have that shaved Webley you held up in an issue of Handloader?

[Mike Venturino]

Nope to the Webley. Passed it onto a friend. As for the S&W '17 I've tried everything I know with no luck although I've never had a problem with several others of the same breed. This one is contrary.

MLV

[Hang Fire]

Operator malfunction

[Multigunner]

I once had the pleasure of watching Boz330 play with a grease gun on a silhouette range. None of those little steel critters was safe. I was impressed.

I have also had the opportunity to shoot Thompsons on several occasions and I've come to the conclusion that most of those foot-in-the-sling, hold-it-sideways monday morning quarter back techniques are pretty much a bunch of BS. I've known a few people who make it look easy (my father included) but, like many other things, looks are decieving. That 2+ lbs of recriprocating bolt makes the Thompson a challenge.

A very nice collection Mike, you have good taste.

Jerry

My dad showed me how he was trained to use a Thompson, using my uncles salesman sample cased 1928 Thompson.
He said they would sometimes turn the Tommygun on its side for firing over railings and gunwales so the mag would not get hung up and knocked loose when you ducked for cover. The British chose the side fed Lancaster SMG for naval use for much the same reasons, and carried over the side feed to the STEN and Sterling SMGs to allow a low profile when in the prone position.

Also I recently found a Finnish site where they told of the Suomi SMGs being held on its side to allow easier ejection when the gun became heavily fouled from extended firing. It was not uncommon for a Finn SMG gunner to fire tens of thousands of rounds during a winter battle, the sub zero weather keeping the gun reasonably cool.

The advantages of a side feed magazine are pretty well proven, but there are some drawbacks, especially noticable in rifle caliber weapons such as the FG42 and Johnson LMG, so the bottom feed magazine is the more popular these days.
Better quality mass produced magazine springs have made bottom feed as reliable as the side feed was once know for.

[Multigunner]

I was stationed in England back in the 1980's and joined a local "pistol club". One man who became a very good friend had served in the British Army during WW2. He was in communications and often delivered dispatches by motorcycle. He served in England, North Africa and Italy that I know of.

As a sidearm he was offered a S&W revolver chambered in .38 S&W. He claimed that .38 S&W ammunition was so scarce that firing even a single round required filling out paperwork so he refused the revolver. Instead, he requested and was issued a Thompson SMG. There was no shortage of .45 ACP cartridges and he could get all he wanted without paperwork.

Once he had the Thompson, he did some "trading" with an American GI for a 1911A1 that he used throughout the remainder of the war. He liked the combination that used the same cartridge and was knowledgeable enough to know that the .45 ACP is much superior to the .38 S&W.

One Sunday afternoon at the club, Len smiled and pulled out that very 1911A1. He handed it to me with a full magazine of cartridges and said "Go shoot it!" I did and felt honored to be permitted to shoot it. I can also attest that even in his 60's, Len was a fine rifle shot.


The Shortage of revolver ammo was probably due to the prohibition against using the standard 200 gr lead bullet .380/200 British cartridge.
The British had switched to a 170 gr FMJ bullet because the Germans threated to execute any British soldier caught with lead bulleted ammunition. The Germans also threatened to execute some captured US MPs when they found lead bullet .38 special ammo in their pistols.
Since the NAZIs had in fact executed a number of British POWs because they claimed the MkVII bullet violated the Hague Convention rules against bullets that caused un necessary suffering, the British knew they'd carry out their threats.
Back then Penicillian was difficult to mass produce and the lubricants of lead bullets carry bacteria and dirty cloth fragments deep into a wound.
The US had found a quicker and cheaper method of producing Penicillian, but the Germans were always running short of this any other antibiotics.

A friend died of a antibiotic resistent infection from a relatively minor wound from a .22 short. It was a long and gruesome death and that was in a modern well equiped hospital.

PS
Since most common antibiotics no longer work on mutated bacteria, wound specialists are reverting to the old Civil War era practice of putting maggots in a wound to eat away necrotic tissue while leaving the healthy tissue untouched. They breed the flys and maggots in a sterile environment especially for this purpose.

[KYCaster]

My dad showed me how he was trained to use a Thompson, using my uncles salesman sample cased 1928 Thompson.
He said they would sometimes turn the Tommygun on its side for firing over railings and gunwales so the mag would not get hung up and knocked loose when you ducked for cover. The British chose the side fed Lancaster SMG for naval use for much the same reasons, and carried over the side feed to the STEN and Sterling SMGs to allow a low profile when in the prone position.

Also I recently found a Finnish site where they told of the Suomi SMGs being held on its side to allow easier ejection when the gun became heavily fouled from extended firing. It was not uncommon for a Finn SMG gunner to fire tens of thousands of rounds during a winter battle, the sub zero weather keeping the gun reasonably cool.

The advantages of a side feed magazine are pretty well proven, but there are some drawbacks, especially noticable in rifle caliber weapons such as the FG42 and Johnson LMG, so the bottom feed magazine is the more popular these days.
Better quality mass produced magazine springs have made bottom feed as reliable as the side feed was once know for.



My comments weren't meant to address any limitations dictated by terrain or barricaded shooting positions, but to relate my experience regarding attempts to control recoil by brute force or to increase hit probability using "trick" techniques.

I have fired very few rounds each through a Sten and a Sterling and found both to feel fairly awkward, but that may very well have been due to my lack of familiarity with them....and at the time I wasn't concerned about avoiding return fire. ;-) I have no experience at all with the other guns you mention.

I have fired Thompsons enough to become fairly proficient with them and consider myself fortunate to have known a few who have mastered their use. I believe Col. Cooper(no, I didn't know him personally although I did meet him and shook his hand...and he's not one of my favorite celebrities) has described the proper technique in print a couple of times.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but it irks me when I hear something that is completely contrary to my own experience and I sometimes feel the need to comment.

I understand what you're saying about the relative merits of side mount mags vs. bottom feeders, but I really don't think the comments I referred to in my first post could be considered proper technique.

Jerry

[Combat Diver]

Mike, Very nice collection of .45s. I did see two M3A1s in Baghdad in January 08' in my old Battalions arms room. Since SF keeps older US weapons (M1 Garand, M1D, M2 Carbine, M1903A4, 1918A2 BARs) on hand, they sometimes deploy. M1911A1s were withdrawn from depot and I hand carried over 250ea in fall of 03'. My son just came back from his 4th depolyment last month and carried a cocked and locked 1911 (he's also in SF now). During those first 6 months of 08', I also carried this M1911 Colt 1916 dated frame with WWII Ithaca slide.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P5210025_rz.JPG

CD

[The Virginian]

Mike: I have tried many cast bullets in my S&W and Colt 1917s and I have a similar problem but with one of the Colt 1917s, I switched to a 230 grain plated bullet and it has decent accuracy or with FMJ. This gun with cast bullets sprays them like the target was hit with buckshot. I did get it to group decently with alox lubed .451 hard cast 225 RNFP bullets. I think it comes down to the gun and how the bore likes or doesn't like certain bullets. Funny my S&W 1917s shoot all the cast bullets I have tried very well.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Also don't have one of those single shot "Liberators" that were dropped to resistance forces in Europe. They were supposed to use its single shot to shoot a German and take his weapon. I wonder what happened if a 2nd shot was needed?

Nice guns, the second shot was never needed, if you didn't finish the German with one shot, you were dead, sad, but true. A shot from one of those at point blank range on an unsuspecting German would have worked most times I suppose.

[The Virginian]

There is some company that is making reproduction Liberators and while not as dear in price as the originals, they are not what I would call a good buy either.

[Ed in North Texas]

[QUOTE=GabbyM;706915]A fellow I used to work with was in a combat engineers tank during the first gulf war. It's a converted M-60 (M-1??)with a short chamber short barrel 155mm gun and berm plow.

The M-728 Combat Engineer Vehicle (CEV). An M-60A1 chassis fitted with an M-135 165mm demolition gun, an "A" frame and either a dozer blade or mine clearing rake. The M-728A1 is an upgraded version.

[The Virginian]

Very cool....

[4570guy]

One of my great uncles survived France and Belgium during WW2. He loved the Thompson. One story that was told to me second hand from my cousin after he got "uncle" talking (which was rare) -

The jeep he was riding in along the hedge row country in France hit a mine or some such and was blown upside down. His driver was killed and my uncle thrown clear. He heard German voices on the other side of the hedge rows. He managed to salvage a Thompson from the jeep and sprayed the brush from which he heard the voices. He got away and he heard no more German speaking voices after spraying the hedges with the Tommy gun.