Sighted in my Type 97 today.

[Mike Venturino]

Finally sighted in my Type 97 sniper rifle this afternoon. Its a real pain because there is no adjustment in the scope. It all has to be done with the mount using shims. So its a shim and shoot and shim and shoot procedure. I think I will shoot it again and then take the mount screws out one at a time and lock-tite them. Fired it with the same partially resized Privi Partizan/Graf/Hornady brass and 37 grains of IMR4350 under 140 grain Speer spitzer or 140 grain Nosler HPBT that shot well in my Type 38 last week.

Here's a photo of the Type 97 it with a Type 99 above.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/4-22-08110.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like a major PITA. You have to be hardcore to go that far. Let us know how it shoots when you "get er done". The Japs never did pay much attention to putting refined weapons in the hands of their soldier, thinking their warrior spirit and code would compensate for crappy equipment. Wrong again, sons of the Rising Sun!

[Buckshot]

...............Seems to me most Japanese snipers mentioned were just guys with their regular rifles, shooting from advantageous positions. Did the Japanese army ever really field a meaningfull group of trained snipers?

My pal Larry had 2 uncles in the Pacific in WW2 and both came back with Jap rifles. One uncle was Army and he liberated a brand new 7.7mm from a crate at an ordnance dump in Manila. The other uncle was a Marine and came home with a 6.5mm. Story there was a sniper in a palm tree. Regardless whatever the stories are they're both like brand new, and have intact Crysanthemum crests. Larry fired 20 rounds of Norma 7.7 though the one, and that was before I knew him. He's never fired the other one.

...............Buckshot

[Mike Venturino]

Chargar: You are right, I think. There are many mentions in the oral history of the Pacific campaigns about people being hit by "snipers." I think mostly they were just hit by ordinary soldiers firing ordinary rifles. I would say that "true" Japanese snipers were rare.

However, they did field rifles like mine and like the 7.7mm version with a scope. If I can find the photo I took of the reticle in this scope I'll post it. It sort of looks like the view in one of those movie shots of a German U-boat periscope with lots of lines, dashes, and hash marks. So obviously they didn't trust their soldiers to adjust scopes, hence no adjustments, but they must have put some training into their using all those marks in the reticle.

By the way, the German Zf41 scoped K98ks were given to "snipers" with the instructions not to mess with the scope. Only "technical" Sgts. were supposed to adjust them and they are ever worse to mess with than this Japanese one.

MLV

[Mike Venturino]

Opps. Sorry. It was Buckshot that said that. Not Chargar.

MLV

[StarMetal]

Sounds like a major PITA. You have to be hardcore to go that far. Let us know how it shoots when you "get er done". The Japs never did pay much attention to putting refined weapons in the hands of their soldier, thinking their warrior spirit and code would compensate for crappy equipment. Wrong again, sons of the Rising Sun!

Charger,

Not picking at your post, just conveying my thoughts. I use to think at first the Japanese rifles were crude. The more I handled and shot them the more I respected them. The early 6.5's were much better finished then the later rifles, but course that is what happens when a major war is going on. The actions are actually copies of the 93 Mauser, not the 98 that many thing. Let me verify that no one here mentioned it was a 98 copy. In my opinion it's a lighter and stronger action then the 98. Also the left locking lug doesn't have the ejector cut all the way through it. The Japs came up with a clever alteration to prevent that. Being the early 6.5's used a really hardened steel they actually are quite slick when you find a good one. The reinforced their stocks so well with the metal tangs that went down the pistol grips quite a ways.

I was so enamored with the action that I eventually built a 260 Remington on a Type 38.

To help Mike explain how the scope attaches to the rifle here is a close up of that base on the left side of the receiver:
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=240960&d=1257026798

Joe

[bruce drake]

I can second the affection for Arisakas. I just had one of my Type 38s at the range on Saturday. Using 14gr Unique with a 140gr Cast lead bullet I was keeping all within the black of a 100 yard reduced highpower target (8 ring) with simple V-Notch Rear sight (I was using the 400yard sight setting on the rear sight).

First time I've ever used this load and I was pleasantly surprised by the results.

The bolt is smooth when it cycles and the finish still has a deep blue for a rifle that was made in 1926 and has probably seen action in China for 20 years before being turned over to the Allies in 45. It has a ground mum but everything else is in great condition.

I've got three Type 99 Arisakas that shows the progression of manufactoring quality as the war went on.

But both my Type 38s are beautiful pieces of work from a long ago era when hand-fitting by skilled craftsmen was the norm and not something only seen on custom rifles.

Bruce

[Char-Gar]

Joe et al. I didn't say Jap small arms were not serviceable or functional. I do stand on the statment that they considered the warrior spirit of their men able to compensate for less sophisticated small arms. They saw their men as superior to other men and felt that superiority would win the day and not superior equipment. Anybody who fought those guys, admit they are fighting little boogers and are not to be taken lightly.

But, in the end, they bit off more than they could chew with the industrial and natural resources of the United States. We fielded more and better equipment and more and better soldiers. In the end, they were pushed back to their homeland, which was turning into a heap of smoking radioactive dust. The superiority of the Imperial Japanese fighting man proved to be just smoke and mirrors. They were done in by overeaching arrogance of their own making. But, the Japs have always thought highly of themselves and the superiority of their culture.

I have handled and shot many Jap small arms from WWII and none of them were equal to small arms fielded by Germany, United States, England or Russia. I still have a few hanging around the shop here. They would shoot and you make war with them. I have seen some Type 38s made in the 30's that are pretty slick and nice.

Rather than bog down in mechanical minutia, what I am trying to say is the Japanese military didn't consider small arms as important as other military powers. If we want to compare things, compare the attitude of the Japanese military toward the individual solider and his equipment to let's say, the United States attitude toward the individual solider and ihs equipment. War is not made by equipment but by human beings with different cultures, values and attitudes. In many ways, the equipment reflects those cultural differences.

I guess I had better quit here as I have some very strong feelings about Japan the Japanese, their culture, and their morals in the 20th. Century. I don't believe they have every taken full ownership of some of the truly horrible things they did in China, Indo-China, and other places in Asia. The Japanese version of WWII history being taught today is a whitewash of Japan. At least the Krauts own up to what they did and teach history straight. By now....

[26Charlie]

Back to the rifles - P. O. Ackley said they are stout actions; he tried to blow one up and couldn't do it, IIRC his book correctly. Also I read in the Rifleman of a jackleg gunsmithing attempt to convert a 6.5 mm to .30-06 by running in a chambering reamer, thats it. The .30 caliber bullets came out nearly 2" long and under unknown pressure - owner complained that it "kicked too much".

[Char-Gar]

Charlie... Back in the days when Jap rifles could be had less than ten bucks, there were all sorts of conversions around. Many Type 99s were rechambered to 300 Savage. Needless to say, accuracy was minute of whitetail due to the undersized bullet, but many had them. The type 38 was rechambered to the 257 Roberts case, necked up to 6.5mm. It was known as the 6.5 Jap Roberts.

Even wierder things happend as you mentioned. I knew of one 99 that was rechambered to 8mm Mauser. I refused to shoot the darn thing but others did, and they complained about the recoil. It is good the Jap actions were hell for stout considering some of the things fools did with them after the war.

[Bret4207]

I have to admit, the more I carry my "Worlds Ugliest RIfle" 6.5x257 Mannlicher stocked Arisaka, the more I like it. I even have a certain grudging fondness for the safety, which is effective and workable with gloves on, even if it's not convenient and small.

[StarMetal]

I have to admit, the more I carry my "Worlds Ugliest RIfle" 6.5x257 Mannlicher stocked Arisaka, the more I like it. I even have a certain grudging fondness for the safety, which is effective and workable with gloves on, even if it's not convenient and small.

That big safety is also a gas shield should any decide to blow down the lug raceways.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Joe et al. I didn't say Jap small arms were not serviceable or functional. I do stand on the statment that they considered the warrior spirit of their men able to compensate for less sophisticated small arms. They saw their men as superior to other men and felt that superiority would win the day and not superior equipment. Anybody who fought those guys, admit they are fighting little boogers and are not to be taken lightly.

But, in the end, they bit off more than they could chew with the industrial and natural resources of the United States. We fielded more and better equipment and more and better soldiers. In the end, they were pushed back to their homeland, which was turning into a heap of smoking radioactive dust. The superiority of the Imperial Japanese fighting man proved to be just smoke and mirrors. They were done in by overeaching arrogance of their own making. But, the Japs have always thought highly of themselves and the superiority of their culture.

I have handled and shot many Jap small arms from WWII and none of them were equal to small arms fielded by Germany, United States, England or Russia. I still have a few hanging around the shop here. They would shoot and you make war with them. I have seen some Type 38s made in the 30's that are pretty slick and nice.

Rather than bog down in mechanical minutia, what I am trying to say is the Japanese military didn't consider small arms as important as other military powers. If we want to compare things, compare the attitude of the Japanese military toward the individual solider and his equipment to let's say, the United States attitude toward the individual solider and ihs equipment. War is not made by equipment but by human beings with different cultures, values and attitudes. In many ways, the equipment reflects those cultural differences.

I guess I had better quit here as I have some very strong feelings about Japan the Japanese, their culture, and their morals in the 20th. Century. I don't believe they have every taken full ownership of some of the truly horrible things they did in China, Indo-China, and other places in Asia. The Japanese version of WWII history being taught today is a whitewash of Japan. At least the Krauts own up to what they did and teach history straight. By now....

Well Chargar,

The Christian thing to do is to forgive. As for history ours is a whitewash too. It takes getting to our age to find out and realize how corrupt and how much our government has lied to us, the things they've done, and how most (not all incase you are one) teachers are extreme left liberal enviromental wacko...teaching our children untruths...or should I say brainwashing.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe... You are of course correct in saying it is the Christian thing to forgive. But it is also the Christian thing to seek justice and truth. Forgivness is spiritual and personal, justice is collective and social. On a personal basis I can forgive Charles Manson, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't have to answer to society for what he did.

Yes, this country has done some awful and unsavory things. i would be dishonest if I said otherwise. Yes, our history is often whitewahed and distorted.

Having said that, American on it's worse day did not compare to what the Japs did in China, Korea, Burma etc. etc. If it not a good idea to point to our bad conduct to excuse the extreme bad conduct of others.

It crimes, national and personal are swept under the rug, then nobody learns anything and the world continues to spiral into death and decay. I for one am for justice and truth.

[bruce drake]

And back to the original thread...

Mike,

Is that scope mount offset? It looks like the bolt handle is still straight.

Bruce

[Mike Venturino]

The scope is indeed offset but the bolt handle is also slightly bend.

MLV

[725]

Was the bent handle done on just the "sniper" versions. Seems I've never seen a bent handle, and I've seen a bunch of 97's.

[StarMetal]

Maybe you all can notice the bent bolt handle in this Type 97 snipers rifle:

http://www.oldrifles.com/type-97_70.jpg

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

725: The Type 97 is the sniper version. What you have seen a bunch of would have been Type 38 (6.5mm) or Type 99 (7.7mm). Those were standard infantry rifles. They have straight bolts. The snipers have slightly bent ones.

Mike V.

[Mike Venturino]

Nice looking rifle, Joe. Is that yours?

MLV

[Mike Venturino]

Here are standard versions of the Type 99 and a Type 38 on bottom. I've also got a Type 99 take-down paratrooper rifle here but don't have a photo of it handy.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/4-22-08107LargeWebview.jpg

MLV

[StarMetal]

Nice looking rifle, Joe. Is that yours?

MLV

Mike,

No, no, posted that to more clarify the bent bolt. Sorry I should have mentioned. It's hard to tell the bolts were bent because like you mentioned they aren't bent a lot.

Joe

[dualsport]

I like my Type 99. It's no uglier than a Russian 91/30, in my opinion. Hell for stout, balances nice, light enough to carry all day. Now I'm going to have to try cast boolits in it when I get my GB Mod 314299. Just got another box of Norma brass, once fired. The box has the sticker still on it, $2.68.