Patch Roller

[Bobcat2]

Hi all! I'm new to this forum but a 40 yr reloader. I'm getting interested in paper patching for smokeless small bore. In doing some research on the net I came across an article that was discussing patch rolling techniques. The author mentioned using an old cigarette rolling machine to produce consistent results and not stretching/tearing the paper. I did a quick web search and came up with this:

http://careysmokeshop.stores.yahoo.net/cigrollers.html

Its dirt cheap, and if it works, would save a lot of time. Just substitute the bullet for tobacco and roll on the wet patch. It would automatically adjust to different diameter bullets.

Has anybody used one for this? Results?

Bob

[montana_charlie]

Yeah, there's a guy here who uses one, but he's kinda shy. He's only posted on the subject 92 times.
I used the search feature to gather all of those posts. You can browse through them here... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=1901186

CM

[docone31]

Busted! Narcd out by one of our own! The end is near.
I use them. Actually I started with them.
I have only done .303 British, and .308. It seems that is the size that fits well.
The trick is to size those projectiles to .308, then wrap. Once dry, size to .001 over groove.
.309 works great with .308, .314 works great with .303.
I use start jacketed load data.
Works for me.
Oh yeah, those are the ones.

[303Guy]

Yup. I tried it too (docone31 put me onto it) and it works very well. It takes a little practice as does most things. The cig roller will do larger and smaller cal boolits. I have patched 224 boolits successfully. It's all in how one manipulates the adjustable roller and the 'belt' with ones fingers as one rolls.:Fire:

I have a pic of a patch being applied but it won't upload so I can't show it to you at this time.

[pdawg_shooter]

Docone sent me one to try. I still have better luck the old fashion way.

[beemer]

docone31 got me started using one too. I can roll both ways but the little Tops roller does a neat and tight patch with a little practice.

Dave

[leftiye]

What's the largest caliber that this could roll a patch on? I'm not a big .30 fan, and am not much interested in patching smaller bores either.

[robroy]

I bought a top at a local smoke shop. It won't handle .359 sized boolits.

[docone31]

For those who have rolllers, the opening grooves on both sides can be opened up with a dremel. The apron will still produce a tight wrap.
I hope someone will make an adjustable one that can be made for all size castings.
Just take the roller that goes in and out, and open up the hole just a tad. I actually wore out an apron rolling my own.
They are handy.

[303Guy]

I actually 'designed' one to handle all size boolits. It was to have a hand crank and controlled 'apron' or 'belt' tension. It was to have a longer belt/apron onto which the patch could be laid out and a boolit guide and so on. Well, I haven't built it yet and it will likely be some time before I ever do.[smilie=1:

[DrNick]

I bought one. .30 cal is no problem but .323 is VERY tight and I have trouble turning the rollers. I'll try opening up the channel that locks the forward roller in place to see if it'll give me any more room.

Nick

[Marlin Junky]

While using one of these rollers, can something like RCBS 30-165-SIL be patched from the base to the ogive without first sizing its two bands the same diameter as the bore ride section? After drying, would it then be possible to size the whole package .309-.310" thus "ironing out" the casting's driving bands? Is it practical to expect that it's possible to get the patch on square with the cig roller method without first sizing the naked boolit to approx. .301" before patching? With a patching board, it would be impossible to get a patch on RCBS 30-165-SIL square with a .308" bump in near the middle.

MJ

P.S. Here's a pic of RCBS 30-165-SIL:

[docone31]

Sure,
I am glad people are beginning to experiment on the ideas I presented quite a while back.
I really do not see why a person could make one. Opening up the elongated hole would make wrapping .323 fairly easy.

[RMulhern]

Anybody here shoot .303 British??

[docone31]

The .303 is the sweetest paper patch one could imagine.
Cast, size to .308, wrap with two wraps of computer paper, size to .314. You will need to get the dies modified to take .314. I have two dies for that rifle. One standard collet die set for jacketeds, good to .312, and the one for paper patching, modified to .314. I run full tilt loads. Minimum load data for jacketed at the same weight.
A wonderful rifle to wrap for.
You will need to bed the forestock. Paper runs hotter than lead or jacketed. The three point bedding and it is a tack driver.
You will like it.

[Marlin Junky]

Doc,

How does one index the patch to the casting while using the cig roller? I'm having a hard time visualizing how each patch is applied in the same location on each casting.

MJ

[docone31]

Just lay it about square. It is actually much simpler than it would seem.
Even if it is a little off square, the roller evens it out.
Does an amazing job on wrinkles in the paper.

[Marlin Junky]

I was referring to orienting the patch along the casting's axis of rotation; i.e., getting the leading edge of the patch the same distance from the meplat each and every time one patches.

MJ

[docone31]

Me too.
It is simpler than you can imagine.
I do all mine by eyeball.

[barrabruce]

Lay the wet patch on the skirt of the rollers.
place the core on the patch where you want it and let the bullet bend it in the machine so the start of the patch is about near the top of the bullet but still on the roller.
Then close the roller.etc..etc..

Hope its sounds logical enough to deciefer

Barra

[Marlin Junky]

Me too.
It is simpler than you can imagine.
I do all mine by eyeball.

But if there are no indexing marks or points, you're sacrificing precision. Can the meplat be lined up at one edge of the roller with the tail of the patch at the other edge and adjust the patch length to suit the chamber's throat? I still haven't found one of these darn rollers and probably wouldn't know the right one if it was right in front of me.

MJ

[docone31]

If you want to make it rough, go ahead.
The barrel cuts the patch, and it ejects itself upon muzzle exit.
I have yet to have a patch hit the target.

[Lead pot]

The .303 is the sweetest paper patch one could imagine.
Cast, size to .308, wrap with two wraps of computer paper, size to .314. You will need to get the dies modified to take .314. I have two dies for that rifle. One standard collet die set for jacketeds, good to .312, and the one for paper patching, modified to .314. I run full tilt loads. Minimum load data for jacketed at the same weight.
A wonderful rifle to wrap for.
You will need to bed the forestock. Paper runs hotter than lead or jacketed. The three point bedding and it is a tack driver.
You will like it.

Two wraps of computer paper over a .308 will increase the double wrap to more than .314 more like .3233.
Unless your computer paper is a lot thinner than mine is at .00375 and my printer paper is the thin 20# that I use.

[docone31]

Yep, and it sizes nicely.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Yup and it is a tack driver in my SMELLY.

[bonza]

Two wraps of computer paper over a .308 will increase the double wrap to more than .314 more like .3233.

He's sizing to .314" after the patch is applied.
I've started paper patching again recently, but for .45 calibers (might need to buy a cigar roller!), & I use eraseable typewriter paper which only adds .010" to the bullet's diameter. The pad of paper I have is Mead brand &, being 'eraseable', tends to have a slightly gummy feel when damp which seems to help when rolling onto the bullet.

[Marlin Junky]

If you want to make it rough, go ahead.
The barrel cuts the patch, and it ejects itself upon muzzle exit.
I have yet to have a patch hit the target.

Right, but if the patch length outside the case isn't the same from cartridge to cartridge, how can one expect a high level of accuracy at long range?

MJ

P.S. I'm not trying to be stubborn, I just want to understand the method's limitations before I try it.

[cheese1566]

Is it possible for someone (with the great vast experience and info-hint-hint-hint!!) to create an "Idiot's Guide to Paper Patching" using the techniques you are talking about?
Maybe a start to finish of the process witha few good pictures. Then post forever in a sticky. I have done searches and this thread has good info but it is all scattered. I think there is a wealth of information and potential for exploring.

docone31 has peaked my interest in PP for my Ishapore 7.62 NATO, but some posts get confusing on PP for .303 and other 30 caliber cartridges when diameters are refernced. I am too intimidated and lacking knowledge to start. :veryconfu I can find little info in my Lyman Casting Book and the web. I like the idea of a cig roller.

Just wondering.

[docone31]

Hey Cheese,
On your Ishy, the smaller pieces of wood stock, the armorers would pin. With age, the pieces would split.
If you take cyanoacrolate and run several beads on the inside, it makes it stronger.
You can get packages of the stuff at the Dollar Store. It comes five to a package for a buck.
Your Ishy sure looks good.

[cheese1566]

Thanks,

I just scrubbed the wood one last time last night with Formby's Refinsher and #0000 and the first coat of low gloss Tung oil was rubbed in.
The main forearm has some pins and a screw installed. The small upper hand guard has two small cracks that were visible after taking the old crud off. It had two wood arsenal cross slots to stop them, but I did do the cyano method on them also.

Hopefully by X-mas I can get some of pics her all done. I have a few forgotten parts to homebrew park, then she'll be ready. I have about 500 pcs of 7.62 NATO once fire and my Lee Deluxe Collet set at the ready. I need to accumulate a mold for paper patching (?), and sizer dies. And of course my cig roller!

[docone31]

The mold I use is the Lee 180gn .30cal mold. I size .308, wrap with two wraps of computer printer paper, the less expensive stuff works better than the good stuff, and when dry, I then size to .309.
BadaBing, BadaBoom.
4895 works real well, so does 4064.
In my alloy, I use water quenched wheel weight, with a little zinc

[robroy]

I just got some tracing paper that mikes at 0.0023" and just for grins:bigsmyl2: I got a Top roller and it twisted the paper right around some Hornet fodder I had laying around. It doesn't work on the 0.359" stuff that I have cast though. Now all I have to do is get some moulds and perhaps some sizing dies of appropriate diameter.

[303Guy]

Hey this thing works on .225 Yup. It sure does. I've done a 50 cal boolit on mine and I'm sure I've done a 35 cal. The trick is to not try to close the rollers fully. Just keep pressure on them while rolling. In a way it's easier with bigger boolits that ride high and keep the roller partly open.

[longbow]

cheese1566:

Maybe not the be all end all but here is a link to basic paper patching techniques ~ no cigarette roller though:

http://www.lrml.org/technical/ammunition/patching.htm

And something a little more in depth:

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm

Some pretty good stuff in these. You are right though, a collection of info (Lots posted in this forum too) all collected into a nice package would be good.

Longbow

[Willbird]

I used to use the cig rollers to roll ...um left handed cigs hehe :-).

Anyway some of the story tellers I smoked those left handed cigs with told of seeing people use a dollar bill to roll similar cigs...has anybody ever seen that done ?? and can you use a dollar bill to put on PP's ??

Bill

[robroy]

Willbird, I hadn't thought about the bill trick for years. I'm going to have to try it on some boolits.

[Outdoors]

I used to use the cig rollers to roll ...um left handed cigs hehe :-).

Anyway some of the story tellers I smoked those left handed cigs with told of seeing people use a dollar bill to roll similar cigs...has anybody ever seen that done ?? and can you use a dollar bill to put on PP's ??

Bill
Seen it done and done it. That's the way I learned to roll cigs. Hmm. Never thought about trying it on a boolit. Good idea!

Pat