Not just another 'leading'post

[kelbro]

What just happened? I have been shooting #2 in my SBH Hunter for quite a while. Never saw any leading. Same bullet, same lube, same amount of the same powder. My only variable was switching to 50/50 Pb/WW and I got quite a few streaks of lead in my barrel. Is 50/50 that much softer? Should I toughen up the 50/50?

[44man]

What just happened? I have been shooting #2 in my SBH Hunter for quite a while. Never saw any leading. Same bullet, same lube, same amount of the same powder. My only variable was switching to 50/50 Pb/WW and I got quite a few streaks of lead in my barrel. Is 50/50 that much softer? Should I toughen up the 50/50?
Yes, try water dropping the boolits and letting them age.
It also depends on your powder and lube. You never said what you are using.

[mpmarty]

50/50 WW and pure is a far cry from #2 which is 90/5/5 lead tin antimony. By using the 50/50 you wound up with about 97.75 lead .25 tin and 2% antimony. As you can see fifty fifty is a poor substitute for #2 although many seem to like it.

[kelbro]

Yes, try water dropping the boolits and letting them age.
It also depends on your powder and lube. You never said what you are using.

Might do that. Tried WD on a batch a few months ago but never shot them. Using 429421 bullet over 20 gr of 2400 and Lee Alox cut 50/50 with mineral spirits. These bullets were aged about 4 weeks. Hundreds of bullets into the berm with this combo without a streak.


50/50 WW and pure is a far cry from #2 which is 90/5/5 lead tin antimony. By using the 50/50 you wound up with about 97.75 lead .25 tin and 2% antimony. As you can see fifty fifty is a poor substitute for #2 although many seem to like it.

So maybe I need to add some tin?? Get it up to 2% tin and 2% Antimony?

I think that I would rather do that than WD. I might consider oven heat-treating. I like consistency.

[AZ-Stew]

Oven heat treating can be done with a cheap, yard sale toaster oven. See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42870&highlight=toaster+oven . Keep it out of Mama's oven. Get your own.

You don't need, and probably can't get, as hard a boolit as I did by heat treating 50-50 Pb/WW, but you'll harden it some.

I'd also opt for more lube. That thin coat of thinned-out Alox you're using isn't much of a lube, in my opinion.

Regards,

Stew

[mpmarty]

Kelbro adding more tin probably won't help. Antimony is what lets a boolit harden when water dropped or heat treated. If the mold is filling out and looks good you've got enough tin although .25 is about one eighth of what I like. Linotype is high in antimony at eleven percent and only three percent tin. The tin is there to help flow in the mold. The antimony is there to harden the cast.

[Ricochet]

I water drop everything because I like the procedure a whole lot better than trying to drop them on a towel and keep them from dinging each other up. I oven anneal boolits I want to be soft, and have oven treated big batches of rifle boolits I especially want to be consistent. If you can keep a steady rhythm of cutting the sprue as soon as it'll cut cleanly and quickly drop the boolits, you won't gain anything by batch treating them IMO, but you sometimes run into hangups so the boolits don't all have identical cooling times before hitting the water, and mould temperatures can vary when you have interruptions in casting. That 50/50 WW/Pb will get quite hard when quenched and aged. Adding tin won't make it much harder.

[kelbro]

Thanks guys. I might try WD again but I need to work on my rhythm to keep things consistent.

[lwknight]

What just happened? I have been shooting #2 in my SBH Hunter for quite a while. Never saw any leading. Same bullet, same lube, same amount of the same powder. My only variable was switching to 50/50 Pb/WW and I got quite a few streaks of lead in my barrel. Is 50/50 that much softer? Should I toughen up the 50/50?

I'm not sure I undersand this question 100 percent. I'm new to this forum but not new to forums and casting and shooting.

You only need about 1 pound 50/50 to 9 pounds WW to get a 92-5-3 mix lead/tin/antimony. More tin will appear to start out harder but will soften with age. Everything I can find and read says that you need at least 4% antimony to do any good quenching or heat treating.

I got some superhard from rotometals. Add 1 pound superhard(30%antimony) to your ww-50/50 mix and you should get about 6% antimony. Anything over 5% tin is just waste.

Disclaimer: This opinion is worth just what you paid for it.

[Bret4207]

Beisdes the "hardness" factor, which I don't believe is your whole problem, a different alloy will cast a different size, come out of the sizer different and will FIT differently. So not only did your change in alloy change the hardness it changed the fit AND it has different characteristics than the #2. It's shear strength is different.

This is part of the reason I strongly recommend people stick with one alloy for a good long time (mix a BIG batch of it) and wring it out before switching. You now have to start back at square one and go from there.

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure I undersand this question 100 percent. I'm new to this forum but not new to forums and casting and shooting.

You only need about 1 pound 50/50 to 9 pounds WW to get a 92-5-3 mix lead/tin/antimony. More tin will appear to start out harder but will soften with age. Everything I can find and read says that you need at least 4% antimony to do any good quenching or heat treating.

I got some superhard from rotometals. Add 1 pound superhard(30%antimony) to your ww-50/50 mix and you should get about 6% antimony. Anything over 5% tin is just waste.

Disclaimer: This opinion is worth just what you paid for it.

My observations are that WW style alloys drop from the mould rather soft and age harder as much as 3-4 Bhn over 2 weeks. They do soften with age, but we're talking decades for that.

I also was under the impression it took 3-4% Sb to water harden, along with arsenic, but recently some people have said they get hardening with 1-2% Sb. I'm not sure what the issue is there.

[Ricochet]

I also was under the impression it took 3-4% Sb to water harden, along with arsenic, but recently some people have said they get hardening with 1-2% Sb. I'm not sure what the issue is there.
And less. I've used a lot of ~20% WW/80% pure lead, and it hardens when quenched. Still soft, but considerably harder, about like air cooled wheelweights. The 1948 Metals Handbook speaks of quenching various lead alloys and their hardness evolution over time in the type metals section, and says that alloys in the 1% antimony range may take a year or more to reach their final hardness. I think a lot of people who've said that low alloys don't quench harden have been in too big a hurry.

[lwknight]

I just noticed that we were talking 50/50 PB to WW and not what I thought that the was using 50/50 tin/lead solder. Modern clip-on WW are only 3%SB and thats only semi-hard cast. cutting it to 50% with pure lead would be a pretty soft boolit like mpmarty said.

For all my input was worth I should have just shut up LOL..

[kelbro]

Beisdes the "hardness" factor, which I don't believe is your whole problem, a different alloy will cast a different size, come out of the sizer different and will FIT differently. So not only did your change in alloy change the hardness it changed the fit AND it has different characteristics than the #2. It's shear strength is different.

This is part of the reason I strongly recommend people stick with one alloy for a good long time (mix a BIG batch of it) and wring it out before switching. You now have to start back at square one and go from there.

Thanks Bret. Good points. I assumed since they were sized in the same sizer that the fit would be the same. The shear strength is something that I didn't consider.

I have lots of #2, just wanted to try something a little different (read cheaper).

[awaveritt]

I think I'm confused about your 50/50. Is your alloy 50% pure lead and 50% WW? or is the 50/50 something else along with 50% WW?

Just trying to clarify.

[RoyRogers]

Not to be rude but the OP stated 50% lead 50% WW

[243winxb]

Heat treating in an over, then water dropping is best. 2% antimony with lead gives a BHN 18 hardness. Hardens completley in about 3 week. 4% to 6% antimony will reach full hardness in as little as 30 minutes. Other small amounts of metals help also, but to small to measure. Very little tin is needed. Go to bottom of link. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html For oven treating info , go to LYmans website, look under FAQ. I have tried it with light 45acp target loads, Lyman 200gr BB , Xlox tumble lubed . Works ok, water dropped from the mould, but accuracy not as good as air cooled & sized bulelts.

[44man]

Heat treating in an over, then water dropping is best. 2% antimony with lead gives a BHN 18 hardness. Hardens completley in about 3 week. 4% to 6% antimony will reach full hardness in as little as 30 minutes. Other small amounts of metals help also, but to small to measure. Very little tin is needed. Go to bottom of link. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html For oven treating info , go to LYmans website, look under FAQ. I have tried it with light 45acp target loads, Lyman 200gr BB , Xlox tumble lubed . Works ok, water dropped from the mould, but accuracy not as good as air cooled & sized bulelts.
That is what I found, 50-50 water dropped will reach about 18 BHN.
I forgot to mention accuracy is very bad out of a few of my revolvers unless I use a gas check boolit. I don't get any leading either way but there is a large difference in accuracy at least for me.

[runfiverun]

i use that same 50-50 combination sometimes just 1/2 gr less on the powder.
drop the alox.
my main alloy is 25% pure and ww's air cooled with actual real lube.
pushed down a 24" bbl or the same boolit through my 445 supermag.
your lube is the killer here and maybe the size.