Help Needed for an experiment

[Gently]

O.K. since I am new at this site I thought I would ask a question to "break the ice" so to speak.

I am retired and I love to figit around with interesting stuff, that said...I am currently playing around with plating (copper Jacket) some bullets. I have the equipment and I have the lead and required stuff to MAKE the bullets.

Here is the problem:
In order to make a "jacket" it has to be between .003 and .0035 in thickness, no problem there. In order to do this I either have to:

a) Size down a standard size bullet from whatever diameter to undersize of .003
Not an easy task since I would prefer a harder base metal

b) find a mould that is .003 SMALLER than the size I need
means buying a custom mold at 125 to 200 EACH

c) finding a mold and plating a copper surface on the INSIDE of the bullet cast
area only as to cast a bullet SMALLER than the mold is actually.

d) Get a mill or Lathe and make my own molds
Downside, I am A retired COP not a millwright, but willing to learn.

e) Find SOMEONE who has knowlege in casting bullets the proper size and enter
an "Agreement" for testing purpose and going from there.


I have been plating things for over 3 years and am pretty damn good at it, I want to cast bullets and plate them for use in high valocity rifles, such as .223 and the "AR style weapons". I do not own a AR style weapon anymore and need a test source. I can go on for a coupla pages but the Talledega race will be on soon and,well we all know how that goes.

In summarization what I would like to find is someone who is willing to help in the experimental aspects with the proper tools to assist in this matter. If I am sucessful (and there is no reason I should not) I would be able to offer Excellent Jacketed bullets at an EXTREMELY affordable cost.

So, I would love to here from you talented folks, for the good, bad or indifferent.

[JSnover]

Welcome aboard, Gently.

If your jacket thickness is .003" you'll need the boolit to be .006" undersized. With a hard alloy you might get tired of sizing them down that far. Not that it would be that difficult with the right equipment, but if you plan to offer them for sale your manufacturing process needs to be as simple as possible to keep the time/cost down.
Finding a mold which casts 6 thou under sounds best to me but it will be a custom job: really not a problem. There are a handful of members here who could make molds for you. With luck, you might even find one willing to help out with RD&T. Since you won't need lube grooves, the molds would be easier to make.
Copper-plating a mold might get too labor intensive. I don't have any experience with that but I'd worry about having to recondition the mold from time to time.

[725]

Ever thought about swaging?

[Gently]

Ever thought about swaging?

No, I have not, mostly because I have no clue what you are talking about.
Remember I am new to the casting arena, not new to reloading or shooting. I have heard of it, but I really have no clue as what it means in casting or molding.

I am open to any Ideas, I own a plating company, which I did not really want to bring up, and I learned everything there is know about plating. So I can copper plate as well as chrome dies to make them smaller or harder.

so if you point me in the right direction for "swaging" I will do my reasearch on it.

what I really want to do is make it affordable for people to buy or get dependable reliable and accurate bullets that will work without having to pay "premium prices" so the simpler the better.

I currently have the capeability to plate up to 100 bullets in a 4 hour process, I know the plating process and have the ability and equipment to do that part.

just to give you an Idea it would cost me about 50 to 60 cents to plate 100 bullets that is my cost, not how much it would cost someone to set up and run their own operation. As I said I want to keep it as cheap as possible in order to benifit a lot of people who really cant afford to pay the priemium price.

[oneokie]

Read here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

For 22 cal. bullets, using fired rimfire cases appears to be the way to go.

[Gently]

Read here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

For 22 cal. bullets, using fired rimfire cases appears to be the way to go.

seems to be very labor intensive!
but worth looking into...thanks!:groner:

[heathydee]

There are plenty of moulds available for 30 caliber bores . The boolits thrown come out at about .309"or a touch bigger . If your plating process only puts on another six thousandths or so the resulting plated boolits would be suitable for .303 British etc ; those larger thirty calibers which do best with boolits sized .314 "to .316". This might be a cheap and easy way for you to trial your process.
Heath

[Gently]

excellent point, and that does solve the "upper" .30 caliber area. However I am looking for the most rare of creatures the elusive .223 and the 7.62 type round setting at .224 and .308 respectively. I have yet to see a mold of .220 or .302 (I am not sure what dia. the 222 swift is). But I think it is .223

I appreciate your comment, and now I can use my .308 mold for those calibers.

thanks, Mike

[Storydude]

I want to know how you get copper to stick to lead reliably.

[Gently]

Shhhhhh it is a secret! No not really!
It is in the hardness of the lead and how much tin is in it. First you use a "emulsifer" to put a coating on the lead some use muratic acid mix, I use a salt type polymer . Then as you place it in the bath it burns off the coating and allowing the copper to stick (very well) to the lead.

It is "science" with H's and C's and Hc"s and all that, but suffice it to say, lead is VERY plateable as is aluinum and even plants, shoes (baby) sticks, flowers, fiberglass all kinds of things.

[waksupi]

Mountain Molds can make you molds cheaper than what you quote. I'll be interested in watching your progress. Welcome aboard.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try using molds designed for 9MM (.355) and plate a couple of thousandths to make them 38 cal(.357)
You can try molds for .308 and plate them to .311 for 7.62x39.
Those two should get started.
Not to burst your bubble but Berry's and Speer Gold Dots are commercially plated bullets.
When I was a commercial caster I looked into plating bullets and the plater I spoke to told me to use copper cyanide for a flash coat and use copper sulfate to build it up. I didn't want to use copper cyanide so I gave up on the idea.
A local gunsmith had problems with plated bullets in full power loads in his 10mm.

[docone31]

It is not plateing, it is electroforming.
There is a difference.
Being a jeweler, I am able to electroform over wax models to make a form. The finish is good. With plateing, any imperfection will magnify over the plateing cycle. This will make a pinhole into a crater. That is where reverse plateing, then replateing cycles can come close, but not as effectively as electroforming.
It is ampherage that matters here.

[Gently]

First, docone31;
What I do is electro plating. I plate old car parts and you are correct Amperage is the key, not to much and not to little, square inch measurments is what is used for a given plate along with duration and temp.

second, deltaenterprizes;
You are talking about a "triple plate process" with new technology, :mad: and EPA rules, on the use of cyanide, I NEVER use cyanide or Hexavents. My system is set up with a inert polymer as a bath.

The problem use to be acids and lead do not mix, now with the process I use no acids are used. I can plate up to .05 copper and if needed the same for chrome putting up to 0.1 of a REALLY HARD covering.

[JSnover]

So all you really need is a paper patch mold for .223 Electroplate your bullets back up to whatever diameter you want, you're in bidness.

[Gently]

So all you really need is a paper patch mold for .223 Electroplate your bullets back up to whatever diameter you want, you're in bidness.

Ummmm O.K. what you said :holysheep

as long as it is a straight walled boolit...I can do lube boolits, but I prefer to stay with a spire point design with bevel base or boat tail. I would love a boat tail for
a .220 (plated up to .224 actually .2235) but I dont know if they can be cast.

Right Now I have settled on a .30 cal rifle (I have a 300 savage as a test weapon)
And a .38 cal handgun round ( I have a colt python for a test weapon).

when I perfect these I will go to a .223 and a subsonic 9mm

Once I get the science down all I have to do is aquire/ have made/ make different moulds and BAM! BOBS YOU UNCLE!

I hire a kid to watch the fluids and watch the massive amounts of FLOW roll in :kidding:

[mroliver77]

Red River Rick makes smooth sided molds for paper patching. He might fix you up.
http://kal.castpics.net/
Jay

[mroliver77]

Also, I would be willing to shoot some of your plated bullets in my ar to see how they shoot.
J

[JSnover]

Ummmm O.K. what you said :holysheep

as long as it is a straight walled boolit...I can do lube boolits, but I prefer to stay with a spire point design with bevel base or boat tail. I would love a boat tail for
a .220 (plated up to .224 actually .2235) but I dont know if they can be cast.

Right Now I have settled on a .30 cal rifle (I have a 300 savage as a test weapon)
And a .38 cal handgun round ( I have a colt python for a test weapon).

when I perfect these I will go to a .223 and a subsonic 9mm

Once I get the science down all I have to do is aquire/ have made/ make different moulds and BAM! BOBS YOU UNCLE!

I hire a kid to watch the fluids and watch the massive amounts of FLOW roll in :kidding:

Wow. I just re-read that. For the record I don't recommend plating .22 caliber boolits up to .45 :shock: I think a smooth-sided spire-point for each caliber, plated up to whatever the customer wants would be a pretty slick idea.

[Gently]

Wow. I just re-read that. For the record I don't recommend plating .22 caliber boolits up to .45 :shock: I think a smooth-sided spire-point for each caliber, plated up to whatever the customer wants would be a pretty slick idea.

I am confused, I plan on plating .035 NOT .45 I can plate as thick as I want but even I would not plate that thick on a boolit.

I even have decided to put a nickle plate on a few of my .38's for trial in a old smith&wesson I have, Hey ya never know!! :shock:

[Edubya]

You want a harder alloy? Use antimony it will come out of the mould .003 smaller diameter than a #2 alloy blend.
EW

[Gently]

Really! that makes things a bit easier but how do you mix antimony with lead. everything I have read is that it has to be added at a MUCH higher temp than I can achieve with a home lead pot or melter. I am not really sure how much a mix already in ingot form cost...but I am sure it is a bit (or more) expensive. Remember cost effective is a key here. No need to have a mix I have to buy or pay more for as it affects the overall cost.

FYI: I am about half way finished in the research, so far along thanks to you guys, to go to development phase. If I can figure out the how to post pictures I may put up a "Picture Progress report"we will see.

[Edubya]

Linotype is a high antimony content alloy. Use it straight for the hard, brittle cast or blend with pure lead to give variations of hardness.
Your casting temperature will play a significant roll on the sixe of your casts also.
EW

[waksupi]

I suspect the old RPM threshold will rear it's ugly head, as you attempt to reach the higher velocities.

[MT Gianni]

How about plating a mold so the cavities are smaller, then cast what size you want and plate the bullets? If it adheres to the face of the mold it will need to be milled and re-vented but that will get you a smaller cavity cheaper.

[geargnasher]

Question: Are we talking pure copper plate here or the Gilding metal used for many commercial jacketed bullets? There is a difference.

Gilding metal alloy is "slicker" than pure copper and is much more desireable, But as far as I am aware it is impossible to plate with an alloy. Just something to consider.

Gear

[Gently]

Here is an update to the thread:

I have had some GREAT responses, I have aquired a mill/lathe combo unit (Grizzly G4015Z) to try to do milling and lathe work.

But right now (as of 11-11-09) I had to take my wife to the hospital where she was admitted for a problem with her gall bladder (we think) so I have to put things on hold for a bit until we find out for sure what is going to happen.

My next plan is to design a "Cherry" and mill it out (or take it to a place here in town) and then make the mold I need.

I also aquired about 2000 feet of used LEAD pipe (3 inch diameter) and a brinell hardness tester (lee Type) I plan to mix an antinomy bar with this lead to get the right hardness for the lead.

I also have found a metal place here in town to suppy the metal square stock and flat stock, in exchange for some plating they want done.

I plan to use 7075 aluminum and 4140 steel on a "lee handle" type mold.
Later I will try a steel and brass mold.

I have finally found out how to make shell casings (the brass) but I may be a bit premature in that because it is an extrusion process....and that machine AINT CHEAP! :holysheep

So, I will try and get back to it as soon as possible (depending on what happens at the hospital).

And I would like to thank all of you who have responded and I do not want you to think I am ignoring anyone, just not enough time right now to respond to everyone.

Thanks, Mike!

[Gently]

Question: Are we talking pure copper plate here or the Gilding metal used for many commercial jacketed bullets? There is a difference.

Gilding metal alloy is "slicker" than pure copper and is much more desireable, But as far as I am aware it is impossible to plate with an alloy. Just something to consider.

Gear

If I can get the metal in sheets I can plate it wether it is an alloy or not. I need to use 2' X 2' x 18 guage, possibly 20 guage sheet and then they will be the anode's.
my thinking was actually put a "chrome plate" about .0001 over the copper for slickness, Oh and they would look REALLY cool! :redneck: