Czech 98/22 driving me nuts

[jonk]

I have a 98/22. Shiny bore, sharp rifling. The muzzle was worn so I had it counterbored. Now sharp rifling right to the end of the counterbore.

Bore slugs .3245. I've tried some .325 and .326 slugs, as well as jacketed. Lee 175 and 8mm mold from Buckshot- a heavy one but I honestly don't know if it was the maximum or Karabiner or what. Also every type of surplus and some jacketed handloads.

It LOOKS like it should do well. I also tried shimming the receiver to take up some slack due to compressed wood, and tried a shim under the front of the barrel- and of course without.

It just won't shoot well. My best has been about 8" at 100 yards. No stock interference. Decoppered bore.

Any suggestions?

[StarMetal]

First thing I'd do is neck size only. Then I would size the bullet to fit the throat. Sound like the chamber may be fat and the cartridge isn't centering the bullet good because the cartridge is lying on the bottom of the chamber when the rifle is held in the horizontal position, theoretically making the point point up to the bore.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

With 8 MOA groups, tweaking your loads won't get you where you want to be. I suspect something more fundamental and mechanical.

1. That counterbore might be your problem if: A) IF left of what might now be called the muzzle is at and angle to counterbore and the bullets are grazing the side of the counterbore on their way out. (i.e. counterbore is crooked). B) the counterbore left some burrs at the muzzle and the bullets are hitting those. If there any reason you can't just cut and recrown the barrel?

2. The fit of metal to wood. I would glass bed the darn thing if it were mine and producing 8" groups.

I could think of several other more fundaments problems but no sense going there now. The long and short of it, my gut tells me you have a rifle problem and not a load problem.

[Shiloh]

I think Chargar nailed it.

How far is is counter bored?? Is is enough to remove all possible rod damage to the rifling from poor cleaning??

Shiloh

[jonk]

Counterbored by a gunsmith. Deep enough. Maybe 1/2 inch. It DID improve after counterboring.

Chamber seems fine looking at fired cases. I"ve tried necksized rounds.

Don't want to cut/recrown. I'd have to re-do the sights. I'd sooner spin on another barrel.

[StarMetal]

Try fatter bullets then.

Joe

[TCLouis]

1/2" may not be deep enough.

I have one barrel that is the poster child for NOT cleaning from the muzzle. will group with mild loads won't stay on 8.5"X11" sheet of paper when power levels start coming up a little

[scrapcan]

Jonk,

I am watching this thread intently as I also have a 98.22 that is sitting in the corner with a dunce cap. It does a bit better than yours but still frustrating.

[nicholst55]

Just curious, and I don't know if this would even cause the problems you're having, but - have you tried shooting it with the handguard and stock bands removed?

[Char-Gar]

Just because the counterbore was done by a gunsmith means nothing. If you want a list of how guns have been screwed up by gunsmiths, a very long one can be put together.

[Gently]

is it a real German Mauser or an Argentine mauser? not a "sporterized" version? if a real German mauser with original barrel it should be an 8mm an obsolete round, It sounds like you have the 8x57mm J the actual bore is .318. and not a .323 (more modern round).

If it is an argentine Mauser the actual bore size is .311 nominal, you would use a cast bullet sized to .312 w/gas check.

This information was obtained from lymans 47th reloading handbook.

The way you describe this problem it sounds as if the ammunition you have is incorrect, best to slug the barrel before shooting anymore to determine which barrel you have. If it is an Original German Mauser then Black hills may have some new cases. they are different in size from the "modern" 8mm

But then I could be wrong, have been before, will be again in the future!

[StarMetal]

is it a real German Mauser or an Argentine mauser? not a "sporterized" version? if a real German mauser with original barrel it should be an 8mm an obsolete round, It sounds like you have the 8x57mm J the actual bore is .318. and not a .323 (more modern round).

If it is an argentine Mauser the actual bore size is .311 nominal, you would use a cast bullet sized to .312 w/gas check.

This information was obtained from lymans 47th reloading handbook.

The way you describe this problem it sounds as if the ammunition you have is incorrect, best to slug the barrel before shooting anymore to determine which barrel you have. If it is an Original German Mauser then Black hills may have some new cases. they are different in size from the "modern" 8mm

But then I could be wrong, have been before, will be again in the future!

Gently,

He stated it is a Czech 98/22. He also wrote that he slugged the bore and it's .3245. The casings, once they have been fired in the rifle, fit the chamber. You can even size down 30-06 to 8x57 Mauser.

Joe

[Gently]

Joe, with a barrel slug at .3245 and trying a .325 and .326 mold he is actually OVERSIZING the bullet. that is my point, the manual states .323 in a 1:91/4 barrel (test barrel) the combination of an oversize round with 1/4 difference in barrel length (shorter) will push barrel pressure WAY UP and cause a very inaccurate bullet. If anything it should be cast at .324 and SIZED DOWN to a .323. it will reduce pressures and increase accuracy.

Looking at my data and some guesstamation of powder and muzzel speed I would not be suprised it the pressures are at or beyond 36,000 cup.
Note: this is a gas check bullet and should use a #2 (lyman) alloy for cast bullet. this also is important if the alloy is softer it expands MORE and the gas check is to big for the grooves.

Hey I am just sayin.

[StarMetal]

Joe, with a barrel slug at .3245 and trying a .325 and .326 mold he is actually OVERSIZING the bullet. that is my point, the manual states .323 in a 1:91/4 barrel (test barrel) the combination of an oversize round with 1/4 difference in barrel length (shorter) will push barrel pressure WAY UP and cause a very inaccurate bullet. If anything it should be cast at .324 and SIZED DOWN to a .323. it will reduce pressures and increase accuracy.

Looking at my data and some guesstamation of powder and muzzel speed I would not be suprised it the pressures are at or beyond 36,000 cup.
Note: this is a gas check bullet and should use a #2 (lyman) alloy for cast bullet. this also is important if the alloy is softer it expands MORE and the gas check is to big for the grooves.

Hey I am just sayin.

Gently,

Come on fellow posters, don't laugh at me here. Not you Gently, I'm talking to those reading this. :killingpc Sizing cast bullets to the groove size or below isn't the correct thing to do. The preferred thing is to size the bullet to fit the throat. The main reason, not the only one, for this is to align the bullet most concentric with the bore. If you start the bullet straight it's accuracy potential increases. We know with enough gas pressure behind a bullet it obturates to the bore. You will think, well an undersize one will too. That is correct, but the chances obturating to the bore straight are not good.

Gently you'll notice in that Lyman Cast bullet book that most of the bullets are sized right to the groove diameter. You'll find out on this forum that isn't the right way to do it. Cast bullets aren't sized the same as jacketed bullets are to the bore.

Actually the most pressure occurs initially engraving a bullet into the rifling. P.O. Ackney showed his buy chambering 30-06 in a 6.5 Arisaka rifle, leaving the original bore. He stated the pressure wasn't that high and was initially the highest engraving the bullet, and I might add sizing it down from 30 cal to 6.5, and then shooting the correct ammo in it before it was rechambered.

Joe

[Gently]

no one is laughing, you make very valid posts, all I am sayin is he has an accuracy problem, the problem is not solved by casting larger. Perhaps a smaller casting in his case wold work better. I can list a bunch of factors, powder burn rate, primer, type of powder, bullet composition and on and on. My suggestion is to TRY lowe and elimanate it as a problem. It is a limited amount of information posted so I would look at what is NOT working and go the opposite a bit (within saftey) and see if there is an improvement, if not go to somthing different. But before Rechambering or making "irreversable" changes to the weapon look to the ammo first.

I do enjoy your post, and it is true that I have a limited amount of experence in casting, but not in reloading and weapon management and gunsmithing, I was my department's "weapons tech" before they decided to send them back to the manufacturer for
repair or replacement. And I learned a long time ago Check ammo or shooter first!

Man I really like this site, and you guys are really full of infor.

Mike.

[Gently]

Man I really miss my spell check!!! [smilie=b:

[StarMetal]

I give up. :killingpc:groner:[smilie=b:

Joe

[Buckshot]

I give up. :killingpc:groner:[smilie=b:

Joe

..............C'mon Joe, relax dude :-) ..............Gently is a new to cast lead and new here, but he's offering info he's familiar with and trying to help. Gently, since this is a thread about Jonk's Czech M98/22 ( CZ made type 1898 Mauser, model of 1922 with a nominal .323" groove) I won't hijack it with a bunch of cast lead stuff, except to say that sizing a slug to (known) groove size is a bare minimum. Attempting to match the throat (within reason) is a good idea. A cast lead boolit is nowhere near as tough as a jacketed one. If it doen't seal the barrel early on, the hot onrushing gasses can cut a lead slug to ribbons in short order.

JonK, I have a pretty nice VZ24/47 I'm working with and just got done loading 50 rounds for. Five different loads of diffferent powder and using the same boolit. The barrel looks to be in decent shape with very strong lands. While the barrel isn't shiney it DOES have some shine to it, but it's also a bit dark in the grooves. Pushing a tight patch thought gives evidence of a short section of some light roughness. It's maybe 8" ahead of the chamber.

Early on I pulled a major boo-boo and didn't slug it. I had some 175gr Lee's lube-sized at .325" so loaded up a bunch over some generic type loads, e.g.: 18/2400, 22/4227, 26/4198, 30/3031 and 36/4895. All with dacron and couldn't wait to get to the range to try out my new $99 Mauser :-) I was slightly underwhelmed and regreted the expenditure of those 50 primers, HA!

I had some of the Lee C329-205's cast up (as cast they run around 330" or so. I drove one into the muzzle (.316"x.326") and one into the throat (.328"+ maybe a couple tenths) Ye gods! I recently made myself a .327" push through die, already having made a .329" Lyman die awile back. I now have 50 rounds loaded over the same charges as above but now sporting .327" slugs of 211grs with lube & GC. Lube-sized in the .329" die and then sent through the .327" one. I dithered over making a .328" push through, so we'll see!

The previous attempt with the smaller slugs weren't a total disaster, like just having them spray all over with wild abandon, but the groups were large enough you wouldn't show them off. Also, the rifle wasn't leaded up either. I did get a few slivers initially but that was about it. The rifle is too nice overall to have it be a total loser, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

..............C'mon Joe, relax dude :-) ..............Gently is a new to cast lead and new here, but he's offering info he's familiar with and trying to help. Gently, since this is a thread about Jonk's Czech M98/22 ( CZ made type 1898 Mauser, model of 1922 with a nominal .323" groove) I won't hijack it with a bunch of cast lead stuff, except to say that sizing a slug to (known) groove size is a bare minimum. Attempting to match the throat (within reason) is a good idea. A cast lead boolit is nowhere near as tough as a jacketed one. If it doen't seal the barrel early on, the hot onrushing gasses can cut a lead slug to ribbons in short order.

JonK, I have a pretty nice VZ24/47 I'm working with and just got done loading 50 rounds for. Five different loads of diffferent powder and using the same boolit. The barrel looks to be in decent shape with very strong lands. While the barrel isn't shiney it DOES have some shine to it, but it's also a bit dark in the grooves. Pushing a tight patch thought gives evidence of a short section of some light roughness. It's maybe 8" ahead of the chamber.

Early on I pulled a major boo-boo and didn't slug it. I had some 175gr Lee's lube-sized at .325" so loaded up a bunch over some generic type loads, e.g.: 18/2400, 22/4227, 26/4198, 30/3031 and 36/4895. All with dacron and couldn't wait to get to the range to try out my new $99 Mauser :-) I was slightly underwhelmed and regreted the expenditure of those 50 primers, HA!

I had some of the Lee C329-205's cast up (as cast they run around 330" or so. I drove one into the muzzle (.316"x.326") and one into the throat (.328"+ maybe a couple tenths) Ye gods! I recently made myself a .327" push through die, already having made a .329" Lyman die awile back. I now have 50 rounds loaded over the same charges as above but now sporting .327" slugs of 211grs with lube & GC. Lube-sized in the .329" die and then sent through the .327" one. I dithered over making a .328" push through, so we'll see!

The previous attempt with the smaller slugs weren't a total disaster, like just having them spray all over with wild abandon, but the groups were large enough you wouldn't show them off. Also, the rifle wasn't leaded up either. I did get a few slivers initially but that was about it. The rifle is too nice overall to have it be a total loser, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

...............Buckshot

Rick,

No problems with Gently, in fact we are conversing through pm. Just stumped how to explain to him about fitting to the throat and that shooting a bullet groove size or under groove size just isn't going to work on this rifle. I think your attempt here is much better described.

Joe

[Gently]

Rick, Joe:
I have re read the posts and now, it gets through my thick head. I can understand the difference between lead and jacket a little better. I see what you are talking about.
so maybe to eliminate any question he should shoot a few jacketed commercial rounds and see how they group and go from there.
I dont remember reading if he has fired a box of comm's to check original accuracy.

See guys, I aint that thick.......well maybe :shock:

[StarMetal]

Rick, Joe:
I have re read the posts and now, it gets through my thick head. I can understand the difference between lead and jacket a little better. I see what you are talking about.
so maybe to eliminate any question he should shoot a few jacketed commercial rounds and see how they group and go from there.
I dont remember reading if he has fired a box of comm's to check original accuracy.

See guys, I aint that thick.......well maybe :shock:

Great Gently.....hey I forgot to say "welcome to the forum."

Joe

[waksupi]

Rick, Joe:
I have re read the posts and now, it gets through my thick head. I can understand the difference between lead and jacket a little better. I see what you are talking about.
so maybe to eliminate any question he should shoot a few jacketed commercial rounds and see how they group and go from there.
I dont remember reading if he has fired a box of comm's to check original accuracy.

See guys, I aint that thick.......well maybe :shock:

Gently, I believe you are going to be interesting to have around. The longest journey begins with a single step.

[StarMetal]

Gently, I believe you are going to be interesting to have around. The longest journey begins with a single step.

Ric you are right. Sometimes too Ric the single step begins after the longest journey....thing first step on the moon.

Joe

[Crash_Corrigan]

I had one of the those 98/22's for which I paid the princely sum of $109.95.

I messed around with it for about three years and got it to shoot a nice 3" group at 100 yds but it still had lousy sights and was very ungainly and huge.

I decided to make it into a custom 6.5 x 55 MM Sweede. I took it to a local gunsmith, Ray Lynn and he removed the barrel and added a Douglas Match grade 6.5 MM bbl, thumbhole laminated stock, new safety, recoil pad, worked over the bolt, jeweled it, sling swivels and mounted my Simmons Whitetail Classic scope onto it.

With J word bullets at 100 yds I am getting 1/2 to 3/4" groups and I am very pleased with it. Cheap it was not but it is the best rifle I own.

Messing with cast I have yet to find the magic formula.


The only downside is the weight of the rifle. It is one heavy sucker. I am anxious to try it out on coyotes in this area but with the long drouth we have been in here in Vegas I might have to wait for a spell.

[Buckshot]

.............Crash, that stock makes my eyes bleed :-) :kidding:

..............Buckshot

[dromia]

Crash, your stock is like Edvard Munch's painting "The Scream".

Did you get an Arts Council grant for it? ;-)

[jonk]

Hmm. Now the throat dimensions I hadn't considered. I know of the value of such measurements, it's just usually I try a few loads and only go that round if absolutely needed.

I might make a chamber/throat cast and measure that.

I have no idea how fat a bullet would chamber. I would not be adverse to using the Lee 329-205 in it sized to whatever if it would chamber- be it at 329, 327, etc.- and see what happens.

IF it will chamber.

Regarding the quality of the job the gunsmith did, this is not in question. I stood there in his shop, watched him take the gun out of the stock, put it in a lathe, all nice and centered up, and cut it. I can vouch that it is centered and done properly.

Regarding the discussion going on above about groove diameter vs. cast diameter, to help out out new member I'd offer this suggestion:

A gun leads, usually, not due to the lube or bore condition (unless really awful) but due to bullet fit. An undersized bullet, or a bullet that is too soft, allows gas to blow by the bullet and etch the lead. Or cut it. Or whatever. But it's the blow by gas that hurts, hence the use of gas checks.

Using a deliberately undersized bullet will speed this up. Using a ballistic filler CAN help alleviate this as it further seperates the combustion of the powder from the bullet and from the sides of the bullet.

The only justafiable use of an undersize bullet I know of is in blackpowder shooting; a must in muzzleloaders to get it down the bore; and for cartridges ok as well, as the burning properties of black powder are such that it upsets the bullet into the rifling in a way that encourages obduration, with a violent slam; whereas smokeless gives more of a gentle push.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Buckshot:
Dromia: I swear the stock looked pretty plain when I saw the blank before Ray cut the stock and fitted the action to it. It was dry and plain looking mostly grey.

Then he went and applied some really glossy finish on it and it became alive. The rifle shoots really well and the trigger breaks like glass. It is an after market Timmney that I installed on the old 98/22 years ago prior to the rebirth of the 6.5 x 55.

I have a "cruise missile" 170 gr Lee mold on the way from MidSouth as they finally had some in stock and I jumped on it. Maybe I can achieve some success with it as the the Lyman 266324 boolit mold sprays all over the paper with the 119 gr boolit. Methinks longer is better in this gun.

I usually wear sunglasses when I shoot it anyway so the screaming colors do not upset me.

[johnnybar]

Here's a gong used last Saturday...6 shot vertical string on left was at 100 yds and 4 shot vertical string on right was at 200 yds. Both were shot on a rolled up jacket over the hood of my truck with open sights using an original BRNO 98/22. It was the first time out for this rifle and the stringing you see is from me learning the sights by walking the hits in from each distance. This 98/22 is a keeper since the 200 yd 4-shot "group's" width is just under 1". And that was with a 10mph right 2/3 value crosswind.
54389

[Gtek]

I would check the counter bore first. The tool was probably run in one direction and maybe a little material roll of one side of faces. Go to hardware store and get long enough brass pan head a 1/4"-20 or so. File cut OD of head in drill to fit counterbore. Lapping compound, reversibe drill, 3 seconds right, 3 seconds left. Maybe twice on both. Probably tough to see down there, if you can get a black Sharpie in there to get some contrast for visual on start. Gtek

[390ish]

If it is in original configuration and the crown/counterbore is in good shape, that Czech should shoot 150 grain CIP spec jacketed ammo into about 2" or less at 100 yards. These are extremely high quality rifles. I have three Yugo 24/47 rifles with nice bores. None of them shot the Karabiner boolit well, at all. Each of them shoot the Lyman 165 grainer with Win 760 powder as well a jacketed bullets.

I am one of those guys who gets uptight about sporterizing nice mil-surp rifles and the 98/22 is nice rifle. I guess a person can take one of these rifles and drill it and tap and a have something that shoots as well as and looks better than a Remington. To me, it is a big step down, like swapping out a factory blown and injected motor for something with a better idle and fuel mileage. Rifles like the 98/22 might be hard for some folks to shoot in their original configuration, however if a person has a mind to shoot in the standing position at 150 to 250 yards at targets the size of milk jugs, rifles of this type are really amazing. The ammunition really is dialed in for the iron sights and the weight distributed for this type of shooting. With a little practice, a shooter can lay down a pretty high rate of accurate fire at impressive ranges. Scoped hunting rifles can't compete if a person has the vision and the ability estimate range, particularly on moving targets out to fairly distant ranges.

Try the Lyman 165, it really works in my 8x57 mausers.