Whats wrong?

[troy7769]

I have just mesured some boolits that i cast a few nights ago and was a little bumed at what they mesured, they were from two different casting sessions, one at home and one at work.They were cast from a Lee TL401-175 SWC, two banger,I chose this one because I did not want to have to size them. I'm not sure that I had the mold and melt as hot as was needed, but when they started to look good thats were I stoped heating the melt. They were water droped. I guess I was expecting some variation in them but not this bad, so I was thinking that the problem has got to be ME not the equipment. I don't mind remelting and casting again if that is what it takes. BTW this is my first time casting boolits. Any help with this would be wonderful. Thanks, Troy
.398-.406
.400-.402
.398-.408
.398-.404
.402-.407
.399-.402
.398-.409
.399-.406
.400-.402
.399-.402
.399-.401
.400-.401

[StarMetal]

I have just mesured some boolits that i cast a few nights ago and was a little bumed at what they mesured, they were from two different casting sessions, one at home and one at work.They were cast from a Lee TL401-175 SWC, two banger,I chose this one because I did not want to have to size them. I'm not sure that I had the mold and melt as hot as was needed, but when they started to look good thats were I stoped heating the melt. They were water droped. I guess I was expecting some variation in them but not this bad, so I was thinking that the problem has got to be ME not the equipment. I don't mind remelting and casting again if that is what it takes. BTW this is my first time casting boolits. Any help with this would be wonderful. Thanks, Troy
.398-.406
.400-.402
.398-.408
.398-.404
.402-.407
.399-.402
.398-.409
.399-.406
.400-.402
.399-.402
.399-.401
.400-.401

Not the right temperature but more important probably not a steady tempo in casting. You have to develop a cadence especially with an aluminum mould because it dissipates heat a lot faster then iron.

Joe

[HeavyMetal]

Hope I can help.

First your going to have to reduce your variables the first being heat.

You didn't say but I think your using some type of gas stove to melt your lead? The trick with this technique is to have a magic marker and a thermometer. Heat your alloy unitil you get to a specific temp, say 725 degrees for WW metal, and mark your dial so you can always return to this setting for casting in the future. This marking will also help you if you decide you need more or less heat for future casting.

Adjusting your heat by "eye" is never going to work while casting! Each temp change will alter the as cast diameter of your boolits, at least within the parameter of the cavity your using.

Bottom line here pick a temp for your alloy hit it and then cast!

Same with an electric pot but they should be already marked.

Now you should have been pre heating your mold either by having it close to your heat source sitting on a hot plate, what ever.

Before you cast your first boolit dip the front base area of the mold in the alloy until lead don't stick to it! Then dip the sprue plate, the end you hit to open it, in the alloy until lead don't stick to it!

Now cast! You will have to dip both the mold and the plate every 5 or 6 casts to maintain and even temp in the mold but this should get you consistant boolits. Do not rush the cooling of the sprue, at least not now. You need to learn the basic's here and Patience is a Virtue in casting. The sprue should feel like breaking when you twist the plate opent if it doesn't the alloy hasn't coled enought to open and you'll lead smears.

Now you'll have a better idea of what they come out of the mold at. Do not be surprised if they are much largere than you think they should be!

Lee tuble lube molds are a great idea on paper, in practice I'd say you chances of being able to use a TL mold as cast are 50-50 hopefully better.

Let us know if this helps!

[sqlbullet]

I have to think with some of those really big ones, the mold wasn't completely closed either. Perhaps a spec of lead or other debris had gotten in the vent lines.

Couple of other questions to help folks here...What alloy? Were they round, or out of round? If they were out of round, do the numbers above indicate two measurements on the same bullet?

I agree that cadence is probably part of your issue. It usually is for new casters.

Also, with regard to water dropping...That probably will make bullets too hard for your purpose. I have that exact mold, plus a 6-banger of the same design. I use them to cast for my 10mm. I find water dropped bullets too hard for all but the heavy 10mm loads. Your mileage may vary.

[troy7769]

I am using a Lee bottom pour pot, pure WW, nothing added. They are out of round, measured them by turning them in the caliper. the numbers are the smallest and largest on same boolit.

[troy7769]

I did preheat the mold at first but it was taking forever for the lead to cool so i could drop it so i let it cool down a bit. That was Bad huh? i found that i was smearing the lead every once in a while so i cooled it then to. Bad huh?

[StarMetal]

So many crazy ideas out there. You don't have to dip your mould in the pot every 5 or 6. You just have to cast fast enough and keep the tempo to keep that mould at a certain temperature range.

Joe

[atr]

+1 for all of the above.....
cadance, tempo is important,,,,you have to have a rhythm and a consistant pattern
consistant pattern such as tempt, when to add material to the pot, when to flux etc.
dipping your mold into the mix....yup crazy

I still ladle pour my boolits, yup slower but thats the way I like it
...since you are using a bottom pour I would suspect that you are casting too fast.

[geargnasher]

Lee moulds are often a real pain to get to close properly, especially when they get up to temperature. Check after EACH closure the air gap against a light before you swing the sprueplate closed. Terribly out-of-round boolits are common with my Lee moulds because of this unless I take a pair of channel-lock pliers and force the blocks completely closed.

Gear

[StarMetal]

If you tune the Lee mould and lubricant those mating V lockup's you shouldn't have to squeeze your blocks together with a pair of channel locks. Heck this is suppose to be fun and fast. Isn't there a Lee mould tune up sticky?

Joe

[243winxb]

398-.409 Should not be out of round by more than .003" You need to go here http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi and read under
Molds, Melters and Casting Not sizing your bullets in never a good idea for accuracy, as you can see by the wild diameters you listed. :Fire:

[HeavyMetal]

First, and this is important, nothing in casting is ever the same all the time!

My "tip" to dip the mold was to help a newbie get an even mold temp as quickly as possible.

Cadence come with practice ( Patience is a Virtue) if the product is scrap from the get go beginners have a tendency to give up! By slowing the newbie down he learns, he develops rythum, and then he gets faster.

Maybe he even learns to spell.

Helping the new guy slow down and take his time should allow him to determine a correct boolit diameter, more importantly he may be able to determine if the mold is faulty, a strong possibliity.

Casting faster is only going to give him a headache until he knows whats wrong, if anything, with the mold.

[gon2shoot]

As you've heard, rythym and consistancy make a difference in a run.

What I want to know is, how the heck do you get to cast at work?

[randyrat]

Well, i think there are a couple of variables that can change the final diameter of a bullet casting. Mold temp, Alloy temp, the alloy and of course a speck of something in the mold face. ( thats the case with a couple of your bullets)

You didn't mention what you where using. Your mold is casting kinda small for a 40 cal bullet. My quess you were using some range scrap that had a lot of pure lead in it.
BTW....The harder the alloy the larger the bullet....

To get your mold up to temp quick::::: Start out with your melt good and hot... Open the sprue plate and pour 10 sets throw them back..Close the sprue pour a few more sets, throw them back...Now start pouring your bullets and they should be consistant.
Your mold using WWs with a good and hot mold should throw them at about .402 maybe .403

Example of a hot mold= When you have to wait 10 seconds or more for the sprue puddle to cool. (I use a fan or a wet cloth to cool my mold down so i can cast quicker.)

[Bret4207]

Should not be out of round by more than .003" You need to go here http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi and read under Not sizing your bullets in never a good idea for accuracy, as you can see by the wild diameters you listed.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, that's just wrong. The poster in this thread has some issues he needs to address, but any sizing done is a chance for the boolit to be damaged. The perfect boolit would be the one that falls from the mould at the size we need and as close to round as possible. Any time we size a boolit appreciably we're sizing it a tiny bit more on one side than the other. Do some measuring and you'll find the more you size a boolit the more you create problems.

I thought the same as you until I read an article by Al Miller, "Cutting them down to size" IIRC, and by doing a little work I found he was right.

[troy7769]

Thinks everyone, so far I think, Rythym and consistancy, more heat, faster tempo, consistant pattern, check that the blocks are tight, try droping w/ no water, is my problem. LOL I realy do thank all of you that has posted to help.

Gon2shoot: I drive a fire truck. 24 on 48 off

Heavymetal: Spelling is not my strong point, sorry. You did good reading it though.

Thanks again floks, I am going right now and put the good info to use, I will post later to let you know how it goes. Troy

[HeavyMetal]

Troy:
I was actually making fun of my spelling. If you can't poke fun at yourself lifes not fun!

[troy7769]

Heavy:
I agree, it didn't upset me in the least. Sorry if you took it that way. Trying to be funny on a forum is tricky for me, that was, what i was doing.
Troy

[MtGun44]

Go to the link at the bottom of the page for Bull Shop, buy some Bull Plate Lube and use
it on the top of the mold, alignment pins and the angled end aluminum alignment features on
the molds, and espcially on the bottom of the sprue plate.

This will stop the lead smearing and help you close the mold more consistently.

Nothing better out there, just order some and you will be saving yourself a lot of hassle.

Not making any money off of this, just passing along info on a great product that is near
mandatory for Lee molds and really excellent on all the others.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Go to the link at the bottom of the page for Bull Shop, buy some Bull Plate Lube and use
it on the top of the mold, alignment pins and the angled end aluminum alignment features on
the molds, and espcially on the bottom of the sprue plate.

This will stop the lead smearing and help you close the mold more consistently.

Nothing better out there, just order some and you will be saving yourself a lot of hassle.

Not making any money off of this, just passing along info on a great product that is near
mandatory for Lee molds and really excellent on all the others.

Bill

++1 MtGun. Bullplate or a good silicone die lube are as essential as handles on Lee moulds to make them cast.

Starmetal Joe, I know this is supposed to be fun, and it is when the tools one uses work anywhere near the way they are supposed to. I've almost completely sworn off of Lee moulds (all I have ever used are 2-cavity) because they are such junk. I can't count the hours I've spent with a lens and scribe and fresh razor blade detailing the blocks until they work, taking out the sprueplate screw, blocking the plate and bevelling the closing edge, drilling and tapping for the sprueplate pivot screw setbolt and piece of #6 shot, blocking the top of the blocks, peening the hinge pin, polishing the alignment pin cavities, etc, and then lapping the cavities with Bon Ami and water until they actually drop boolits instead of having to beat them out with a hickory mallet. Then they still have to be fiddled with to get them to close properly when casting. Maybe I just have terrible luck with them, most of the ones I have are less than 2 years old. When I am patient they make really good boolits, but give me iron or steel or brass any day and I am much happier.

Gear

[StarMetal]

++1 MtGun. Bullplate or a good silicone die lube are as essential as handles on Lee moulds to make them cast.

Starmetal Joe, I know this is supposed to be fun, and it is when the tools one uses work anywhere near the way they are supposed to. I've almost completely sworn off of Lee moulds (all I have ever used are 2-cavity) because they are such junk. I can't count the hours I've spent with a lens and scribe and fresh razor blade detailing the blocks until they work, taking out the sprueplate screw, blocking the plate and bevelling the closing edge, drilling and tapping for the sprueplate pivot screw setbolt and piece of #6 shot, blocking the top of the blocks, peening the hinge pin, polishing the alignment pin cavities, etc, and then lapping the cavities with Bon Ami and water until they actually drop boolits instead of having to beat them out with a hickory mallet. Then they still have to be fiddled with to get them to close properly when casting. Maybe I just have terrible luck with them, most of the ones I have are less than 2 years old. When I am patient they make really good boolits, but give me iron or steel or brass any day and I am much happier.

Gear

I know your feelings. I've been more lucky. What keeps me buying them is that some of them I have are so dang accurate out of my rifles.

Joe

[TAWILDCATT]

I have about 20 molds some 2 cavity.I found that turning it over will align the blocks to close.I have never had a bad mold and funny I dont measure them much of any.just to see that they are big enuf. but then I was a machinist for 60 ys.
they will size in the barrel.and lead being soft does not build up pressure.and as long as the size is bigger than the barrel they will straiten out.the best way to get a good mold is to spend much money on them.they may not be any better but the buyer will think he has a better product.I am trying to get a price on a 4 cavity
lyman moldwith handles I have 38 wc-dewc,and the 45 avp H&G 68 stlye SWC.
what do they go for used but perfect???:coffeecom

[troy7769]

Gentlemen, I owe each and every one of you a cup of coffee, at least. You have blessed me with your expertise on this subjec,t and have saved me lots of hair. I just cast over 300 boolits and all of them came out .401-.403. HEAT was good to me. My melt got really hot a couple of times and i think the tin floated to the top, not sure what it was, it glowed red hot, I had to cool it off to get it to flux back in. Was it TO hot?
Thank you, Troy

[troy7769]

MtGun : thanks, I have been planing on ordering some but I got my mold and pot so fast i could not wait to start casting, and have forgot to order.
Thanks for the reminder, Troy

[waksupi]

Gentlemen, I owe each and every one of you a cup of coffee, at least. You have blessed me with your expertise on this subjec,t and have saved me lots of hair. I just cast over 300 boolits and all of them came out .401-.403. HEAT was good to me. My melt got really hot a couple of times and i think the tin floated to the top, not sure what it was, it glowed red hot, I had to cool it off to get it to flux back in. Was it TO hot?
Thank you, Troy

Troy, if it was red hot, it was WAYYYYY too hot! Up to the level it could out-gas. What is your heat source? If it is a Lee, it shouldn't be able to get that hot. Got a thermometer?

[HeavyMetal]

You've got to be using some type of gas or propane stove to get that hot!

If you haven't invested in a thermometer do so at the first chance you get. Such a tool, particularly in the early learning stage of casting, is invaluable!

Glad you got your problem sorted out now your next step will be stablzing your heat source.

in less than a month you'll be casting as good as the rest of us.

[troy7769]

I'm using a Lee production pot IV set on 8-9 , no thermometer. After i Fluxed it back in, there was alot of dross that i had to get off, that might have been what was glowing red, ya think? Sorry but I just thought of this. Also if it was the tin, would it have burned enough of it that i may need to add some more? BTW they all weighed out very close to eachother 171 gr. +/- .5 gr., do i need to add some pure lead? Or would ya'll just load them as is accounting for the 4gr loss?
thanks, Troy

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Welcome Troy, if your casting over 750-800 degrees, you are way tooooo hot....and yes you are throwing away your mix.... you need to back off or buy a thermometer...good luck

[mooman76]

Also take a look at your mould when you close it and make sure it's closed all the way. If you hold it up to the light you shouldn't see light through it. Not closing just a hair will make one side thicker than the other. A small tap with whatever you use to cut the sprue will do it or some place the mould on a flat surface to close even usually does the trick. These things seem like allot but after awhile it becomes second nature.

[semtav]

Troy, if it was red hot, it was WAYYYYY too hot! Up to the level it could out-gas. What is your heat source? If it is a Lee, it shouldn't be able to get that hot. Got a thermometer?


that little Lee pot will turn the lead red hot if you run it in the 7-8 with less than 1/2 pot full. I have to keep mine at 6 or under to keep it from turning red.

[243winxb]

pure WW, nothing added BTW they all weighed out very close to eachother 171 gr. +/- .5 gr., do i need to add some pure lead? Or would ya'll just load them as is accounting for the 4gr loss? The weight of the bullet is not important, diameter is. If you add pure lead, the bullet will become more heavy and smaller in diameter. Antimony is what makes the bullet larger and harder. Tin keeps air cooed bullets from leading. After sizing,shoot as is,

[USARO4]

Troy, welcome to the forum. You are running your Lee pot way to hot. I turn mine up all the way until temp is 700, flux, turn pot down to 5 on the control and when it reaches 750 turn it down to 3 or 4 to maintain temp. It seems that the lower the lead level (in the pot) is the lower control needs to be. When you add lead turn it back up. I dont know what thermometers sell for now days , but my 10 year old Lyman cost $30 and is still running strong.

[TAWILDCATT]

I bought a harbor freight speed control they go for $14.95.you still need a themometer.the unit plugs in line and regulates the voltage which also helps the longativity.

[atr]

TROY....
just as a comparison,,,I cast some #311413 30 cal yesterday and this was the variation in measured (micrometer) diameter. This was from a 60's vintage Lyman Mold.

first 10 cast......0.3125-0.3130 (0.0005 variation)
last 10 cast......same as above
(out of 60total)

when possible I try to reduce the cast diameter as little as possible in the sizing process. When you size you are basically "swaging". Too much swaging is not generally recommended. (I assure you that there are lots of opinons on this subject.)

[Dale53]

Lee two cavity moulds benefit GREATLY from lubing the alignment surfaces with Bullshop Sprueplate lube as stated above - believe it!

Lee's six cavity moulds are far superior to their two cavity moulds.

However, you CAN do good work with the two cavity moulds IF you lubricate the alignment surfaces...

I have probably 70 moulds from some of the greatest mould makers ever
and some of the least expensive (Lee). I treasure a good mould (some of my best are H&G, MiHec, and NOE and some custom moulds for precision target rifles). I have a couple of Lee two cavity moulds the produce a 340 gr bullet that shoots in 1½" at 100 yards from my Marlin 1895 45/70. THAT is NOT junk...

Dale53

[troy7769]

Thanks guys, not that i have it down or anything, but I did cast 1000 boolits last night at work and they all turned out .400-.403. To me thats ALOT better than what i was casting. I think that these will shoot fine. I did not water drop, ran the pot at about 4-5 on the dial. and kept the mold pretty hot. I did pick up a thermometer today, its a deep frier kind and goes up to 750. Will this work? I hope so, 10 bucks! oh and I landed around 200 lbs. of wheel weights this morn. at .15 lb. thats good around here. The guy at the tire store was really harping on the fact that lead is not going to be used anymore, acording to him the WW mans. have stoped making them as of not long ago. His words, not sure how reliable this is.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Along with the info provided above I cannot stress enough the use of Bullshops' Bull Sprue Plate Lube.

Also after you remove the boolits from the mold place the mold on a thin piece of aluminum attached to a 2 x 4 under the casting pot. Make sure that the mold is completly closed and the bottom of the mold is even on the surface of the metal plate. This ensures that the mold is completly closed and even on the bottom

I have been using Lee molds for 15 years and I found prevents many problems and is a part of my casting routine. I do not even think about it any more. I just do it like I do have to think about breathing.

[243winxb]

they all turned out .400-.403. Thats more like it, good job, and on company time too. I have never used a thermometer, hope it works for youl.

[sqlbullet]

I love having a thermometer. I can return to a known melt temp and mold temp(using my infrared handheld on the mold) for the first cast, and get good bullets right from the start.

You can cast fine bullets without one, but for me, it is a great addition.

For the temps I run, a therm that went to 750° would be fine. You usually don't want the lead over that anyway.

[mdi]

Another small tidbit; using a standard 1" micrometer is more accurate than using calipers (please, I'm not starting a fight, just info I gleaned from a few years as a machine operator). I believe it is the narrow jaws of the caliper and the sliding pressures, holding the slug properly, etc. So much easier to get accurate measurements with a micrometer.