38 special loads in 357 brass

[Matt_G]

Got my wife a new Ruger SP 101 in 357 Magnum and I want to load some light practice loads for her.

I have 38 and 357 brass but I want to try 38 loads in 357 brass because I've read that accuracy is usually better out of the longer brass.
Boolit I want to use is the Lyman 358495. It's a 141 grain wadcutter. Out of my WW metal it drops at 146 grains on average. For those not familiar with this boolit, it has 3 grease grooves and a crimp groove.

Now before we got this gun for her, she shot some light 38 loads out of my Ruger Bisley and really liked the low recoil etc. She just hated the gun, it was too big for her.
Those were in 38 brass, same boolit, standard small pistol primers and pushed by 3.1 grains of Bullseye or 3.9 grains of Win. 231.
I didn't chronograph them, but I'm guessing they ran about 800 fps.
So that's what I want to duplicate out of 357 brass.

After reading another thread here where some folks said you could use 38 special data in 357 brass by increasing the powder charge 10% to get the same ballistics, I started looking through my manuals.
What I'm seeing there doesn't really bear out what I read in that thread.

For instance:
38 special - Lyman 358495 - small pistol primer - Bullseye powder
Starting load: 3.0 grains - 778 fps - 11,000 c.u.p.
Max load: 4.1 grains - 973 fps - 16,800 c.u.p.

357 Magnum - Lyman 358495 - small pistol magnum primer - Bullseye powder
Starting load: 4.8 grains - 730 fps - 18,000 c.u.p.
Max load: 6.8 grains - 1157 fps - 40,600 c.u.p.

Obviously, going by the above data, that 10% rule doesn't work with Bullseye powder. :lol:

Now I'm leaning towards just using the above data and just loading those boolits up over 5.0 grains of Bullseye. The mag primer does make me scratch my head a little though.

Anyways, I'm wondering if anyone here has any safe loads for this boolit, in 357 brass, in the 800 fps range using Win 231 or Red Dot powder. I also have a bunch of Unique.
Any pet loads you may have that fit the bill would be appreciated.

And one other question.
Would you taper or roll crimp on that 358495 boolit?
I've been roll crimping but I'm wondering if taper might be better.

[smith52]

I use W231 myself for low recoil .357 mag loads. I would recommend using the Hodgdon's website info for the .357 mag, 148gr LHBWC over W231 for your load.
Min: 3.0gr (845 fps from 10" barrel with Win. SPM primers)
Max: 3.4 gr (904 fps from 10" barrel with Win. SPM primers)
C.O.L: 1.290"
I think the minimum charge will work good for your intended use. I've never found it necessary use magnum primers though, I've always used Federal 100 SP primers without an issue.
Hope she enjoys the Ruger SP101, I never leave home without mine.

If your not flush seating your wadcutters I think you'll be fine with the roll crimp, I taper crimp or use a factory crimp on all my flush seated wadcutters. I've had times when tring to roll crimp flush seated wadcutters the crimp tries to push the boolit further in the case.

[9.3X62AL]

That data is inconsistent with my experience. Perhaps there is a barrel length issue between two differing firearms (38 and 357), or other dimensional differences that account for these results. My own experience with the "10% rule" reflects results obtained in the same firearm(s), the differences being 38 Special vs. 357 Magnum casings containing the same boolits, usually semi-wadcutters. FWIW.

It is not unheard of for manual data to conflict between sources, or to conflict to some degree with real-world results.

[Treeman]

Notwithstanding the data you found the 10% rule has been borne out by experience and your data source appears doubtful regarding the .357 performance. As for target loads being more accurate in Magnum cases.......maybe. Target loads in 38 cases fired in my .357 are more accurate than I can hold, I have many more 38 cases than magnums and .38 loads are more economical. ....So my .38s are .38s and my .357cases get magnum loadings.

[Matt_G]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Smith52, I had forgotten about the Hodgdon site. You're spot on there, thanks. :)

Al, I thought that data was "off" so to speak myself. It didn't make any sense. I went and looked at the data again and you are right, there is a dimensional difference between the two Universal receivers used for testing these loads. I had not caught that before.
The 38 special barrel was .357 bore.
The 357 was .356 bore!

Now why in the name of God would they use a .356 bore for testing 357 mag loads. [smilie=b:
Whatever Lyman...

[Matt_G]

Treeman, you and I posted at the same time. Just saw your reply.
I understand what you're saying. I'm going to load up light loads using both 38 and 357 brass. Whichever is more accurate is what will get used in that gun.
I'm lucky and have plenty of 38 and 357 brass. My wife's Dad gave me 1800 38 Special cases and 2000 357 cases last weekend. All of it once fired. What a great guy. [smilie=w:

[bobthenailer]

4.0 gr of BE in 357 mag cases and standard primers for about 800 fps with any lead bullet from 141 gr to 180 grain is a shooter in all of my 357 mags ! over the years ive used this load in at least 8 different 357 mags, usually around a inch at 25 yards with revolvers and with single shots about an inch at 50 yards ! useing a scope or red dot , been useing it for over 25 years .

[Matt_G]

Thanks Bobthenailer.
I'll load up some of those 4 grain Bullseye loads in 357 brass for her to try as well.

[9.3X62AL]

Matt--

Every firearm can be a law unto itself, given all the variables that figure into the ballistic equation. Trying to "predict" performance is a tricky bit of prognostication--about the best you can do is consult multiple data sources--view the data with an eye toward safety and reason, and (if possible) do some chronography to test your suppositions and assumptions. Sort of a ballistic polygraph, the chronograph is.

[NickSS]

I have nothing to add to the above discussion except for the question of the weight of the hand gun. A ruger BH is considerably heavier than an SP 101 (I have both) and the felt recoil of a 800 fps load in a bisley ruger is considerably less than will be experienced in an SP 101. Not that either is bad to manage but your wife might not like the added recoil and you will have to load lighter for practice for her. I had to do the same thing for my wife. I make up 146 gr hbwc with 2.2 gr of BE for her in 38spl casesand she handles it very well heavier loads hurt her hand and she will not fire as many of them to get proficient. When she garries the gun I load hotter 140 gr jacketed +p loads for her. I have yet to fire a magnum in either the SP 101 or a Taurus snubby I have mostly because I do not want to deal with the recoil.