25-20 good news and bad news

[semtav]

The good news-- My Marlin 1894CL will shoot sub 1" groups at 50 yds

I've consistently been able to shoot sub inch groups with my 25-20 using Montana Bullet Works 257420 boolits.

The bad news-- I can't even come close to that with my own cast Boolits. I consistenly get 3-4" or worse groups using the same exact load.

His bullets are linotype with a bht of 22.
Mine are either WW or 5 parts pure lead to 2 parts Monotype.

I think I'm gonna try a mixture of WW and Monotype next, but if that doesn't work, where do I go from there? Buy some new Linotype so I can match MBW's hardess exactly??

[doubs43]

Are your bullets the same diameter as the MBW bullets? Do you weigh your bullets to keep them within a narrow weight range? Is there any design differences? Do you use the same lube as MBW?

Something is different or there wouldn't be that much variation in your results.

[runfiverun]

try waterdropping your ww's.
the rapine mold with plain base and wdrp ww's will run as fast as j-words.
i leave them unsized at 259 and use jpw and b-wax for a tumble lube.

[Trifocals]

Are your bullets identical/similar in style/shape? It's hard to compare apples to oranges. A different style bullet will not always produce similar accuracy. Gas checks can make a vast difference. Are your bullets identical in diameter to the purchased bullets? Sometimes different lubes will affect accuracy. Hardness can be a major factor. Try making an alloy that duplicates the purchased bullets hardness. You can also try heat treating your bullets, either water dropping from the mold or oven treating. LOL

[StarMetal]

If you do water drop them give them time to age/cure, about two weeks should do it. I know it's tempting to shoot them shooter, but they won't be hard enough or as hard as they can get. Also if you water drop them, size the immediately.

Joe

[semtav]

OK
thanks for all the suggestions. We are using the same mold style as far as I can tell 257420.
I resized mine to .258 just like him. I weighed each bullet and picked only the ones within .05 grain.
My Lube was RCBS and his was LBT blue

I cast up a small batch of 50/50 wheel weight /Monotype and will try that, then maybe the water dropping.

I did notice mine were .001 out of round before I resized them, and don't think I rechecked after sizing.
gonna be hard to switch the lube yet, but have others when this gets used up.
thanks


to make matters even worse, when I was loading up a batch of his, I noticed I was shaving a little lead, and realized I hadn't beveled the inside edge of the mouth on any for a while, so I thought that may be it. I then loaded up another batch of his Identical to the shaved batch but with a little bevel so I wouldn't shave the lead, to compare the two. The shaved batch actuall shot better than the beveled ones. 3/4 " Out-Out compared to 1".
Semtav

[Bret4207]

Do some serious measuring to start with. I'll bet there's a difference in the mould or sizing. Remember that no 2 moulds will throw identical boolits and a minor variation in size or length can make or break a load. Mould fill out can make a difference too.

The hardness may or may not have anything to do with his boolits shooting better. Seating depth, neck tension (size), lube and a few other things can give you the results you're seeing. If that is a Micro groove barrel I believe the general idea is a slightly fat boolit helps. If .258 isn't working I'd sure try .259 before trashing my alloy and lube. Fit is king with cast and one is of the easier things to change.

Also remember that we can have 5 different alloys all measuring 22 Bhn and all made up of differing components with differing characteristics. Bhn alone means nothing. "Linotype" means nothing. I feel you're better off mixing a large quantity of an alloy and finding out what makes it work best in each gun as opposed to rushing to change the alloy at the first sign of difficulty. Just my opinion.

[semtav]

Yea never thought about it from that angle, right now since I know 10 gr of 4198 makes his slug shoot great, I'm trying to make the new slug fit the load. If this new alloy I'm trying doesn't work, I'll have to try making the load fit the slug.

From what I can tell, the 1894CL's are not micro grooved

[semtav]

I've got one of those big desktop magnifying glass/lamps (for blind old geezers) and I can't see any difference between his and mine visually or dimensionally (with micrometer)

He may be using a single cavity and I'm using a double tho.

also, my top punch was leaving a slight ring arount the top cause the RCBS 420 punch doesn't fit perfectly. I've now fixed that problem.

[mrbill2]

If the alloy is in question, melt some of his bullets and cast in your mold. That should answer the alloy question.

[semtav]

I went and cast a small batch today out of one cavity only.
then took them home and carefully examined them under the magnifying glass and with a micrometer. this cavity is definitely out of round. at least .003". I can put the bullet on a flat surface and roll it and see it wallow along. it's mainly in one spot just to the left ( as viewed from base) of the seam.
this is a new mold and I'm bummed. I'm gonna cast some in the other cavity in the morning, but I think I'm gonna have to call Lyman and see about returning it.
Anyone having any luck doing that?
thanks
Semtav

[Char-Gar]

I have two 25-20s and both shoot cast very well. I cast my bullet from linotype. The neat thing about linotype is not the hardness, but how the alloy expands as it cools and fills out the mold cavities of these small caliber bullets. That iswhat the alloy was designed to do.

It is much easier to cast high quality small caliber bullet from linotype than most any other alloy. Tempering or water quenching the alloy won't compensate for the benefits of linotype for small caliber cast bullets.

I learned this from John Wooters 40 odd years ago and it has served me well.

[beagle]

Call Lyman and tell them your troubles and send it back with a couple of sample bullets. That's too far out of tolerance. Lyman makes good designs abut they do mess up a lot in their quality.

I've had good luck with the 257420 in my Marlin .25/20 even with the twist that Marlin puts in their rifles. The heavier 257312 is another story as they tend to not completely stabilize and tip a little at 100 yards.

I agree with Charles. I size mine to .259" as that microgroove rifling needs all the help it can get./beagle


I went and cast a small batch today out of one cavity only.
then took them home and carefully examined them under the magnifying glass and with a micrometer. this cavity is definitely out of round. at least .003". I can put the bullet on a flat surface and roll it and see it wallow along. it's mainly in one spot just to the left ( as viewed from base) of the seam.
this is a new mold and I'm bummed. I'm gonna cast some in the other cavity in the morning, but I think I'm gonna have to call Lyman and see about returning it.
Anyone having any luck doing that?
thanks
Semtav

[Dale53]

I bought one of the modern Marlin 1894 CL's in 25/20 when they first hit the market. I bought a two cavity Lyman 257420 mould. Because of the small size, I picked straight linotype for my cast bullet alloy. I use Hornady gas checks.

After much field testing, I ended up with three loads:

1 - High speed load - 14.5 grs of RL-7 (this is a compressed load). It
chronographs just under 2200 fps.

2 - Moderate load - 11.5 grs of RL-7 (this was not chronographed but shoots
well.

3 - Squirrel load - 4.0 grs of Unique. It kills squirrels stone dead NOW out of
tallest tree.

All three of these loads will shoot possibles on the fifty yard small bore target.
The "X" count is not high but the accuracy is VERY reliable (all ten shot groups).

The rifle and caliber is arguably the best edible small game rifle, ever!

Dale53

[Bret4207]

As usual Chargar points out the glaringly obvious that I only briefly touched on. Any alloy with a good tin content tends to fill out those little moulds better than a "weaker" alloy. I don;t know if it will help you, but I tend to cast hot mould and get excellent fillout-usually. I have only 25 or so lbs of linotype alloy and I'm saving it for when I REALLY need it. You can often juice up WW alloy with readily available Magnum shot and get better fillout without having to wait an extra long time for the sprue to cool.

FWIW- I've had no real issue with the 25-20. I have 2 Savage 23's and both seem to like whatever I throw at them thus far. I also have 4-5 25 cal moulds and find running them nice and hot (ie-I cast as fast as I can) give me nicer boolits than a leisurely pace and cooler mould. Your out of round may be the mould and it may be shrinkage from a cool spot. I'd get her HOT and try casting some if you think that's a possibility.

[Char-Gar]

I hope I am not being offensive by pointing out the obvious. I have noticed on this and other boards, folks are often too quick to get into the minutsha (sp) and esoterica and overlook the two ton elephant in the room.

Linotype alloy contains a good mix of tin and antimony. Antimony unlike most other metals expands as it cools and fills out the nooks and crannies of the mold. I would wager a small sum, that if our poster used linotype, some or all of his "out of roundness" would go by-by.

I am not trying to be a smart ass, that is just the way my mind works... Do the
A before going to B and then C and well you know the rest. Way too many folks jump to the C or D when dealing with a situation. These folks also can make some very poor decisions in life. Decisions that bring consequences instead of results. It has fallen my lot in life, in several professions to help folks (or try at least) straighten out their life screw ups. Almost 100% of which could have been avoided with some critical thinking before the decision was made and the action taken.

I have a Win. 92 and a Rem. 25 and both have 1-16 twist barrels and handled the 90 grain 257312 very well. The only load I use is 9/4227/257312 which is John Wooters old load. I have never put that load accross a chrony screen , but I think it is in the 1.6 to 1.7 K fps range. It is pure poison on critters up to the size of coyotes at 100 yards and a little beyond. I cast the bullets from Linotype and size them .259. I have been using this load since the 60's.

About 2002 or so I picked up an NIB 4 hole Lyman for this bullet. I had to pay $75.00 for it back them, which as a very high price, but would be considered cheap today. There are some things you don't pay to much for , you just buy them too soon. Guns and bullet molds in demand are two such things.

IIRC the later production Marlin's had a twist of 1-20 which might explain their affinity for lighter bullets.

Well, I am starting to ramble and it is time for lunch. I cooked a mess of my Border Beans in the crockpot over night and it is time for lunch. I think I still have a Schlitz to go with the beans. Llfe is good!

[Bret4207]

Not at all Charles. You just hit on what I assumed was already thought of, and made me realize it might NOT have been. I agree with the A to D jump thing too.

[semtav]

Linotype alloy contains a good mix of tin and antimony. Antimony unlike most other metals expands as it cools and fills out the nooks and crannies of the mold. I would wager a small sum, that if our poster used linotype, some or all of his "out of roundness" would go by-by.


I appreciate all the suggestions and am not trying to overlook anything, even the obvious.
MBW's bullets were straight linotype. I don't have any , but I do have a box on monotype, so my last batch was 50% ww and 50% monotype. I thought that might get me close to linotype.

Since my molds are guaranteed for a year, I still have lots of time to experiment before sending it back. My next move is to just cast with the other cavity and see if there is any difference.

I did notice on my tests, I was alway getting two groups, one real tight group with two or three in one hole (almost) and a couple off an inch or two somewhere else.

So hopefully, my other cavity is the one getting the good groups.

Another thing I noticed with this gun is my first shot after cleaning is always high and to the right of the rest. Always (so far)

[303Guy]

... my first shot after cleaning is always high and to the right of the rest. Always ...Here's a thought - develop a 'fouling shot' load that prints with the rest. Mmmm..... Might be possible sometimes.:roll: I'm thinking of field shooting where a fouling shot is not always possible.

[mpmarty]

Just in case you're curious, here is what five pounds of pure lead and two pounds of monotype produce:

LEAD 5 lbs

MONO 2 lbs

LEAD 6.44 lbs

TIN 0.018 lbs

ANT. 0.38 lbs

TOTAL WT. 7 lbs

LEAD 92 % 92% lead

TIN 025714286 % 2.6 % tin

ANT 054285714 % 5.4 % antimony

[semtav]

Yea thats close to what I came up with, but I figure my monotype probably isn't 100% up to snuff so maybe a tad more lead and a bit less tin/antimony.

I did a calc for 6-1 ww/Mono too. Havent figured the 50/50 ww-Mono yet.

[mpmarty]

Lead 0.921428571 Tin 0.017142857 Antimony 0.061428571

50/50 ww/mono is:

Lead 0.8375 Tin 0.0475 Antimony 0.115

[NoDakJak]

During the past several years I have run a test series of more than three thousand rounds thru six rifles chambered for the 25.20 cartridge with rather lackluster results in the accuracy department. The information provided by Brett and Chargar make sense to me. I just managed to buy a five gallon bucket of linotype and will proceed with a new test series.
Neil

[Char-Gar]

It is not common but not unheard of to have one bad cavity in a multi-cavity mold. Sometimes the cherry will have been run a thou or more into one cavity than the other producing bullets that vary in weight from one cavity to another.

Weight your bullets and see if the cavities are producing bullets of different weights. Also you might measure the overall length of the bullets to see if their is a difference in the cavities. The longer bullets will weight a few grains more than the shorter ones.

I had a 25-20 mold from Old West with one cavity producing bullets .003 longer than the other. I would get the nicest two small groups, about an inch from each other. I started measuring the length of the bullets and segregating them and like magic I got one nice and small group and not the two as before.

Minor differences in the cavities will have a more pronounced effect on smaller bullets than larger ones.

[semtav]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=234&pictureid=1506


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=234&pictureid=1505


type of groups I'm getting