Flat Nose cast in the M48?

[DanM]

Has anyone had any luck getting flat nose boolits to feed in their M48? I have the special order 8mm Karabiner from Midsouth, and can't get it to feed. First and last rounds feed fine, but the middle three hang up every time. Rounds are tipping up enough so that the flat nose catches at the top of the locking lug recess area before going in far enough to chamber. The bullet/load shows promise, and shoots well single fed, but that is no fun. Any ideas?

[jonk]

I've had that issue with some molds yes. You could play with seating depth but otherwise I see no cure.

[bcp477]

It has nothing really to do with the mold....or the bullets themselves, for that matter. The problem, as it relates to the M48 (and other military Mausers) is the profile of the feed ramp and possible burrs on the magazine lips. I solved this issue long ago on my M48, while trying to get it to feed jacketed, round-nose bullets properly. This was long before I tried cast - but no matter, as the flat-nose cast (paper-patched) bullets I shoot exclusively now feed just fine. The issue is that, the feed ramp as profiled now, is too high and the shoulders of the ramp, just under the front edges of the magazine lips (where the feed ramp transitions into the side walls of the magazine) are uneven and a bit too "proud" (they protrude too much). The M48, like other military Mausers, was designed to feed heavy, long, Spitzer-type FMJ bullets....which are much less critical of ramp angle than any other type. If you look closely, as you slowly advance the bolt while feeding a cartridge with flat or round-nose bullet from the magazine.....you will notice that the feed ramp, as is, will cause the round to be pushed high enough (and to the left or right, depending on the position of that round in the magazine)....enough to cause the bullet nose to strike the chamber edge, as the bullets tries to enter the chamber. This is what we can correct, with the following procedure.

The solution is to re-profile the feed ramp and de-burr the magazine lips. I will attempt to explain what to do here, but unless you can visualize it (and have ability working with metal and tools), it will be hard to pick up. And no, I can't post photos to help. Sorry.

OK, here goes.

Tools needed : A Dremel works very well for this - it would be the tool of choice, IMO.

A couple of grinding stones, one somewhat coarse, one fine. The best shape would be cylindrincal or tapered, with a rounded nose, for both.


1) Remove barreled action from the stock. Obviously, remove the bolt.

2) PLUG the chamber. You do NOT want to get metal filings into the chamber and barrel of your rifle !

3) Invert the action and look closely at the shoulders of the feed ramp, where they transition into the magazine side walls. You'll see that these surfaces are roughly finished and irregular.

4) With your Dremel tool, grind these feed ramp "shoulders" smooth. Then polish with the fine stone. The smoother, the better.

5) Bevel the bottom edges of the magazine lips. Just a light bevel, to ensure that the lips have no edge burrs. Do NOT grind away portions of the lips. You can even do this operation with a small pc. of fine sandpaper. The black wet/dry automotive type works well for this.

6) Now, the central portion of the feed ramp. Turn the action back over.....and using your Dremel (and a lot of care).... remove approximately 0.5 mm of the apex (highest portion) of the feed ramp. Smooth the profile of the ramp - and smooth the surface.

7) Clean up the action, re-install the action into the stock.....and test the feeding. You may need to refine the work a bit. This sort of thing requires "fitting"....which is very common with Mausers anyway. GO SLOW and don't remove too much material at once and it'll be fine.

8) Re-blue if you wish. I left mine "in the white", though with a high polish on the feed ramp....and it has never rusted. I keep the action lightly oiled, though.

9) DON'T blame me, if you bollocks it up. This procedure requires dexterity and being good with tools....and understanding a bit about metalworking. If you are not capable - don't try it.
I wouldn't try it now, because of a stroke several years ago. Fortunately, however, I fixed my M48 before that occurred.


If you are careful and do a good job.....you can get your M48 (or any other military Mauser) to feed round-nose, flat-nose bullets (I'm sorry....."boolits").....just fine. It will still feed spitzers with no problems....in fact, better than before.

[DanM]

bcp477....Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I am pretty good with this kind of operation, and will study the situation and likely perform the surgery soon. I am sure it took you a while to compose those instructions. Thanks for your efforts.....

[1874Sharps]

Dan,

I had the exact same thing happen to me with a flat nose boolit in my Mauser, too, as you and others have had. I switched to a spitzer bullet, as I could not bring myself to modify my C&R Mauser.

[DanM]

I have to wonder about these special order molds from Midsouth. The 8mm Karabiner and the 8mm Maximum are supposed to be ideal in K98s and similar 8x57 Mausers. Yet a lot of folks seem to have trouble getting them to feed....

[45 2.1]

I have to wonder about these special order molds from Midsouth. The 8mm Karabiner and the 8mm Maximum are supposed to be ideal in K98s and similar 8x57 Mausers. Yet a lot of folks seem to have trouble getting them to feed....

The originals, that were to specs feed with a little bump in the feeding cycle. What Lee does now may not be to original spec as witnessed from some of our GBs. Keep that in mind when dealing with their products.

[StarMetal]

I have to wonder about these special order molds from Midsouth. The 8mm Karabiner and the 8mm Maximum are supposed to be ideal in K98s and similar 8x57 Mausers. Yet a lot of folks seem to have trouble getting them to feed....


My Yugo 48B not only feeds everything, it also chambers everything without seating past the case neck.

Joe

[bcp477]

You are truly lucky, StarMetal. I have seen and worked with a lot of M48's and 24/47's (same action). The majority won't feed round nose or flat nose bullets well at all....without some tweaking. As I said before, all of the military Mausers were set up for spitzers, at least after spitzers became the "norm" ....and the Yugo rifles for long, relatively heavy spitzers. So, it's no surprise that other shapes often won't feed well. As for the bullets (bullet molds) in question being "designed" for the 8 x 57 rifles..... I'd wager that the designing had to do with how they would shoot in most Mausers....not how they would feed and chamber. The test rifle probably just happened to work well with them, like StarMetal's rifle does.

[StarMetal]

You are truly lucky, StarMetal. I have seen and worked with a lot of M48's and 24/47's (same action). The majority won't feed round nose or flat nose bullets well at all....without some tweaking. As I said before, all of the military Mausers were set up for spitzers, at least after spitzers became the "norm" ....and the Yugo rifles for long, relatively heavy spitzers. So, it's no surprise that other shapes often won't feed well. As for the bullets (bullet molds) in question being "designed" for the 8 x 57 rifles..... I'd wager that the designing had to do with how they would shoot in most Mausers....not how they would feed and chamber. The test rifle probably just happened to work well with them, like StarMetal's rifle does.

There must be a difference in the Yugo 48's. As I mentioned my is a 48B. I've also see just plain Yugo 48 and 48A. So perhap the B model is different...or it may be that mine was one of the batch that had no Crest on them and were unmarked except for serial numbers. I got mine unissued and they were suppose to have been made and apparently a deal didn't go through completely and they ended up in a warehouse for many years. At any rate I'm happy it does have a long throat. It shoots great too, definitely a keeper. Mine has the Elm stock too.

Joe

[bcp477]

The primary differences between the various M48 models (M48, M48a, M48b and M48BO) was the introduction of stamped metal parts, for the magazine floor plate and barrel bands. The M48 had all milled parts. Other than that, the various versions are dimensionally identical. However, there IS a difference in that the later models (M48a, M48b and M48BO) had slightly improved machining tolerances.... thus, bolt operation tends to be slightly smoother than the M48. The first version, M48, was built under difficult conditions, as the factory had only recently been re-constituted.....after it was plundered and mostly destroyed by the Germans, when they occupied (most of) Yugoslavia during WWII. Interestingly, the town in which the factory was/ is located, Kragujevac, changed hands several times between the Germans and Yugoslav Partisans during the war. Anyway, if your rifle has NO crest on the receiver ring, then it is actually an M48 BO ("BO" stands for "bez oznake"....which means "not marked"). The M48BO is identical to the M48b in every other detail, however. The story you related about the BO models having been built for a "deal that didn't go through" is correct. The BO rifles were built for an export contract to Algeria (which was then in the midst of an insurrection against the French colonial occupiers), but the French found out about this and the rifles were never shipped. The crest and other markings were left off to disguise the origins of the rifles. In fact, most of the later production M48-series rifles were used very little.....as by 1956, the Yugoslavs had begun steps toward conversion to the SKS rifle and 7.62 x 39 cartridge.

It is possible (and I'd say likely) that the improved tolerances of your rifle (M48b or M48BO) vs. the M48 have something to do with the easier feeding of all manner of bullet shapes. However, I have worked on M48b's before, that DID exhibit problems in feeding round nose bullets. In fact, I've worked on all of the M48 models, at one time or another. Most of them do not feed round nose or flat nose bullets - as I said, without a bit of "tweaking". So, like lots of things concerning Mausers, nothing is absolute.

[felix]

My son's 48 something need a new barrel, new to him, anyway. Need help in locating one that is shootable! He forgot to clean his after using military ammo, and then bingo, a worthless barrel. ... felix

[Ricochet]

I wouldn't change that barrel before giving it a really good cleaning and shooting it. Can't be any worse than a lot of the used military rifles we shoot.

[StarMetal]

The primary differences between the various M48 models (M48, M48a, M48b and M48BO) was the introduction of stamped metal parts, for the magazine floor plate and barrel bands. The M48 had all milled parts. Other than that, the various versions are dimensionally identical. However, there IS a difference in that the later models (M48a, M48b and M48BO) had slightly improved machining tolerances.... thus, bolt operation tends to be slightly smoother than the M48. The first version, M48, was built under difficult conditions, as the factory had only recently been re-constituted.....after it was plundered and mostly destroyed by the Germans, when they occupied (most of) Yugoslavia during WWII. Interestingly, the town in which the factory was/ is located, Kragujevac, changed hands several times between the Germans and Yugoslav Partisans during the war. Anyway, if your rifle has NO crest on the receiver ring, then it is actually an M48 BO ("BO" stands for "bez oznake"....which means "not marked"). The M48BO is identical to the M48b in every other detail, however. The story you related about the BO models having been built for a "deal that didn't go through" is correct. The BO rifles were built for an export contract to Algeria (which was then in the midst of an insurrection against the French colonial occupiers), but the French found out about this and the rifles were never shipped. The crest and other markings were left off to disguise the origins of the rifles. In fact, most of the later production M48-series rifles were used very little.....as by 1956, the Yugoslavs had begun steps toward conversion to the SKS rifle and 7.62 x 39 cartridge.

It is possible (and I'd say likely) that the improved tolerances of your rifle (M48b or M48BO) vs. the M48 have something to do with the easier feeding of all manner of bullet shapes. However, I have worked on M48b's before, that DID exhibit problems in feeding round nose bullets. In fact, I've worked on all of the M48 models, at one time or another. Most of them do not feed round nose or flat nose bullets - as I said, without a bit of "tweaking". So, like lots of things concerning Mausers, nothing is absolute.

John,

I got some 8mm bullets from one of the members that is deceased now, bless him, was a really nice guy. Might have been the group buy 8mm's because they are big, heavy, and of a Loverin design. The two are identical except the one has the more blunt nose and I do mean blunt. Also included were some of the Lyman I belive that 213 or 215 grain bullet, loverin but with a more of a spitzer nose??? Anyways all these feed like butter from my rifle. My rifle like I said was unissued so it's still pretty rough, although not real rough as the workmanship on it is very good. Yet it still feeds great and I've done nothing to enhance that. The throat is generous. I have no explanation why it's like it is. The groove is dead on .323 too.

Joe

[Ricochet]

The group buy boolit of around 3 years ago is about 175 grains, and is a semispitzer with a gas check, 2 lube grooves, about a 2R ogive and a small meplat. Not too different from the Lee 175 grain 8mm. There's a picture of it in a currently active thread on loading 8x57. Posted 2-3 days ago.

[StarMetal]

The group buy boolit of around 3 years ago is about 175 grains, and is a semispitzer with a gas check, 2 lube grooves, about a 2R ogive and a small meplat. Not too different from the Lee 175 grain 8mm. There's a picture of it in a currently active thread on loading 8x57. Posted 2-3 days ago.

Well then those aren't it. These things in a way look like Oldfeller's Frankenstein for the M95 8x56R. They are way bigger and heavier then say the Lee 175 gr.

Joe

[Ricochet]

Here it is, on the right:

http://www.fototime.com/95526EC254D5D0C/standard.jpg

[bcp477]

Felix,

You can get a replacement barrel from www.e-gunparts.com (Numrich)..... for around $50.00. That is a takeoff M48-series barrel. They also usually have 24/47 takeoff barrels....for a bit less (though I don't know why, because they are EXACTLY the same). As to whether you get a good one or only fair....that is a risk you have to take....but Numrich have always been good to me....and everything I've gotten from them has always been honestly graded. If they say "very good condition", then it will be in that condition, in my experience.

As an interesting note, the barrel I am using now (on my M48) is a "take-off" 24/47 barrel I got from Numrich a few years ago, for $26.00. To my very good fortune, it wasn't really a "takeoff" barrel at all. Rather, it was an absolutely pristine spare barrel, obviously never installed on an action.... and likely never fired, aside from proof testing. (I do mean PRISTINE.) No assembly #'s, which the Yugos always stamped on barrels and other parts, after they were matched to certain receivers.....but before final assembly. The only stamping on the barrel at all is the proof mark. As I said, this is the barrel I am using now - and it is a terrific one.

[StarMetal]

Here it is, on the right:

http://www.fototime.com/95526EC254D5D0C/standard.jpg

John,

I have the one on the left, 323471 and mine weighs in at 213 grains I believe. That's the one I got up to 2400 fps with some good group and didn't crack my stock like ole Buckshot did on his one 8mm. Sure kicks good though.

Joe