What is this cartridge?

[peter nap]

I found an ancient box of misc caes today. I have no idea how old they are, where I got them or why. It's a mix of 30-30, 30/06 amd a few little things I thought were 221 Fireball. They aren't though.

Any ideas?

The only markings on the head are L C 52

Case length 1.281
Head .355
just behind the shoulder .331
loaded length 1.670

bullet .221

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bull.jpg

[StarMetal]

More then likely our Governments ammo for the 7.62x39's. I heard when the first acquired the rifles for them, that is the SKS's and AK's, they had to make up the ammo which wasn't uncommon for them to do so back then.

Joe

[Trapshooter]

I bought an early Russian SKS from a collector, from one of the first batches of SKS rifles into the country. Along with the rifle, he had several hundred "sanitized" 7.62 x 39 cases from Lake City. No Headstamp. If I remember correctly, he said he bought the brass in the early 70's, that it was US Gov't surplus, made for some of our "friends" who were helping us in southeast Asia. Very nice brass if you can find it to reload after shooting. I use it in a Yugo now, and don't shoot the Russian that much anymore.

Trapshooter

[JRW]

If that is a 22, possibly 220 russian?

[peter nap]

If that is a 22, possibly 220 russian?

It is a 22. The bigget exposed part of the bullet is .221 but it could easily be a couple thou larger.

[JRW]

I know the russian case is about that diameter at the base. However, it does not fit the other dimensions for that case. I looked up LCammo, and did not find anything in that vein. Its too short for the russian, the case head is about the same size as the hornet, so I wonder if there was some sort of survival cartridge??? It is a soft point, so if it is factory, it could have been a survival round.

I wish I could help...Maybe Mr. Venturino might have some information???

[JIMinPHX]

bullet .221

With that bullet diameter, it can't be a 7.62 x 39.

Can you get a picture to post?

[JRW]

With that bullet diameter, it can't be a 7.62 x 39.

Can you get a picture to post?

Jim,

He's got a pix in the original post, but the dimensions are too short for a russian cartridge. the 220 rus. is 5mm longer than the figures provided.

the case is exactly the same length as the 256 win, and only .009" short of the 30 carbine.

IIRC, there was some effort to chamber a carbine in a 22 configuration? Perhaps????
:veryconfu

[Gerry N.]

5.7 Johnson Spitfire, necked down .30 Carbine. Developed by Mel Johnson of Johnson Automatics fame.

Gerry N

[ANeat]

I agree with Gerry, The case head dimension and case length says 30 carbine parent case

[JRW]

I agree with Gerry, The case head dimension and case length says 30 carbine parent case


5.7 Johnson Spitfire, necked down .30 Carbine. Developed by Mel Johnson of Johnson Automatics fame.

Gerry N

thank you both! I'm racking my pea-brained head on this matter and getting nowhere!

How did the cartridge work? any information?

[peter nap]

5.7 Johnson Spitfire, necked down .30 Carbine. Developed by Mel Johnson of Johnson Automatics fame.

Gerry N

Beat me to it. I just found a 30 carbine case. Good call! I'd never have figured it out without the unformed cae.

[peter nap]

I wonder if there was some sort of survival cartridge??? It is a soft point, so if it is factory, it could have been a survival round.


You were pretty close. Apparently Johnson promoted the 22/30 carbine as a survival rifle.

[Gerry N.]

thank you both! I'm racking my pea-brained head on this matter and getting nowhere!

How did the cartridge work? any information?

Pretty much went nowhere. A varmint round in an inherently inaccurate custom built gun that threw expensive brass all over the countryside was a poor solution looking for a non problem. There were already several good low power .22 cartridges, that one simply didn't take off. It was a stricktly handloading proposition as well. I was shooting .22-250 at the time and that was still a wildcat, it was few more years until even that went commercial. Rem. came out with the .222 Rem, ,222 Rem Mag., .221 Fireball, and there were the .22 Jet, .22 Hornet, K Hornet, .218 Bee among others, all competing for the attention of the same shooters.

So the 5.7 Spitfire, while interesting, was a no go from the get go.

If that isn't the answer to the question you asked, the cartridge functions the M1 carbine action just fine.

All this pre-dated the .223 Rem/5.56 AR.

Gerry N.

[JRW]

Gerry,

Thanks for the information. always good to learn a bit more. Kind of interesting th eturn of events and how little things actually change. Imagine if the gubmint had actually looked at using the existing platform of the carbine, rather than going the matel route!

Jim

[peter nap]

A little history. I guess Johnson shoulda stayed a lawyer.
http://www.ammo-one.com/5-7JohnsonSpitfire.html

[Gerry N.]

A little history. I guess Johnson shoulda stayed a lawyer.
http://www.ammo-one.com/5-7JohnsonSpitfire.html

Why?

Over the years Mel Johnson had more fun than any fifty other "normal" hu-mons. I met him once, shook his hand and talked with him for a few minutes. His energy and humor were very contagious. I sure would have liked the chance to be friends with him.

Gerry N.

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=JRW;701306]Gerry,

Thanks for the information. always good to learn a bit more. Kind of interesting th eturn of events and how little things actually change. Imagine if the gubmint had actually looked at using the existing platform of the carbine, rather than going the matel route!


The government did look at that direction. It's all in the Black Rifle book. Winchester even built a rifle that was just about a twin for the Carbine. There was a special cartridge for it to. TWR was going to build a scaled down M14 for a new smaller round. They even converted a full size M14 and if the government liked it they would built the scale down version.

The picture was deceiving, but never the less I missed the call on that cartridge.

Joe