Can my 45 Colt reload problem be solved?

[Naphtali]

I am trying to develope a heavy load for my Freedom Arms M97 45 Colts and am having a problem. The load that is not doing well is:

1. Remington 45 Colt brass

2. CCI 350 primer

3. RCBS 45-270-SAA - wheel weight air dropped (280 grains), LBT Blue Commercial lube, sized to .451 inch.

4. 22.0 grains H110

Bullet is seated that Redding Profile crimp die crimps case mouth over front driving band to allow cartridge length to fit M97s' cylinders. M97s' chamber mouths are .4515 inch.

Shooting at 25 yards, impact dispersion is: [about] .5 inch vertical Y axis and 8 inches horizontal X axis; bullet distribution is evenly spread among the horizontal and centered on point of aim; bullets do not keyhole.

I first tried loading this bullet with 9.3 grains of TiteGroup, all else being the same. This load obtained very uniform velocities also. Bullet keyholed at least once but apparently keyholing did not affect group size at 25, 50, or 314 yard targets.

The TiteGroup load is too light for what I seek. The H110 load is fine for velocity and uniformity, but obtains poor accuracy on the horizontal X axis.

Where should I be looking to find out what is going wrong? What can be done to correct the problem? Is this an unfixable problem of bullet shape being incompatible with my revolvers?

[Groo]

Groo here
Try a shorter bullet in the 250 range. with a good load of Unique [8 to 9 ish]
If they don't group have someone else shoot it.
I believe that you can go too heavy in the 97 and other short cylinders real fast.
After all ,the original load with a soft lead bullet will kill a horse , same bullet in hard lead
will hurt what ever is on the other side --why go do heavy...?

[StarMetal]

Just the way your group is tells me it's your shooting style. You may be resting it in a manner it doesn't like. You need to try different resting techniques...that is rest on the frame, rest holding it and your hands on the rest, or rest holding it and resting on your wrist. Also extreme horizontal swings can be that your are pushing the revolve to the side with your trigger finger instead of gently squeezing the trigger straight back.

The keyhole load just wasn't fast enough I feel.

Joe

[44man]

Joe might just be right but I see several other things to try. Dump the mag primer and use the WLP as the hottest or a Fed 150.
Water drop the boolits and let them age harden.
Size for a snug fit through the throats.
Slug the bore to make sure it is not larger then the throats. Make sure the throat readings are correct, that is awful small for a .45.
A freedom should have .452" bore and .4525 to .453" throats.

[Naphtali]

I shot 45 Colt and one of my M83 475s at the same time, targets being next to one another. Group size with 475/400/22.2-gr H4227 is about the size of a quarter at 25 yards and an Eisenhower dollar at 50 yards. My shooting was from sitting position with back support (I find I shoot way high from a rest or sand bag.) I'll pay closer attention to whether I am changing grip or trigger press moving from M83 to M97.

While I mic'd the chambers, I did not use small hole gage on mouth/forcing cone of barrel. When my M83s proved to spec precisely as Freedom Arms told me they would, I leaped to the conclusion that the M97s would have similar "to the numbers" quality control. Oops.

Heat treating bullets I should pay attention to. We were having accuracy problems with our 45-70 Mountain Molds Piledriver Jr. emulator bullet. We heat treated a batch of bullets to harden them to bhn 26-28. Group size became a clover leaf at 100 yards.

A lighter bullet I prefer to avoid. Were I to be unable to fix this accuracy problem, I'll be making a Mountain Mold 300-310 grain WFN PB with secant ogive (I tried a beautiful tangential ogive, but it would not chamber in the M97s.), the goal being 45/300/1200 with 5.5-inch barrel and 1120 with 4.25-inch barrel.

H110 calls for magnum pistol primers. I own no non-magnum primers. TiteGroup doesn't care about primers - or much of anything so long as you don't load it adventurously.

[Lloyd Smale]

never had great luck with that bullet in any of my 45s. What i have found with it is the hotter you get the better it seems to shoot. Id hold on to the mag primers and bump it up to 24 grains one grain at a time. Id also bump the bullet size up to 452 if they will chamber in your FA and try casting them out of an alloy that is around 16-18 bhn. Your ww bullets are a bit soft for the velocitys your running. Problem is as youve found out, if you go much slower that bullet wont stablize.

[bobke]

lloyd
which bullet are you referring to having accuracy issues with-the 270saa or the 300 wfnpb? am working on a ruger bisley and trying to sort through almost the same accuracy problems, absent the shorter cylinder. looking for that silver bullet for this bisley and having to work with commercially cast bullets til i can restart my casting operation that's been stored for the last 10 years. thx.

[dubber123]

Joe might just be right but I see several other things to try. Dump the mag primer and use the WLP as the hottest or a Fed 150.
Water drop the boolits and let them age harden.
Size for a snug fit through the throats.
Slug the bore to make sure it is not larger then the throats. Make sure the throat readings are correct, that is awful small for a .45.
A freedom should have .452" bore and .4525 to .453" throats.

I read the response to this, but I'm not sure I saw the numbers...? It would not be the first F/A I have heard of with overly tight throats.

I am unsure of the F/A's twist, but in my S&W .45 Colt, a heavy boolit needed a major boot in the backside to provide any accuracy. I can nearly match the velocities you seek in my 4" S&W using 2400. That may be a powder worth investigating as well.

[TEXASFIVEGUN]

Try a good LFN anywhere from 260 to 320 grains with a 3/4 or hotter load of 2400 and any primer you have. I'll bet you a cold beer it wont shoot you have a gun problem.

[Groo]

Groo here
Go to NEI molds and look up 451-270 or 451-345 [I think}
This should be the old SSK molds for the 454.
I have both and they have the short noses that allow you to crimp to
Spec. [I love the 270 gr bullet]

[Lloyd Smale]

270saa Id give the 300 rcbs swcgc a try I know it fits (though barely) in the 97s and its been one of the most accurate 45 bullets ive found. To be honest ive had a real rough time with any 45 bullet under 300 grains. Ive got some to shoot well but its usually taken alot of load experimentation and most dont fly well at long range.
lloyd
which bullet are you referring to having accuracy issues with-the 270saa or the 300 wfnpb? am working on a ruger bisley and trying to sort through almost the same accuracy problems, absent the shorter cylinder. looking for that silver bullet for this bisley and having to work with commercially cast bullets til i can restart my casting operation that's been stored for the last 10 years. thx.

[44man]

I read the response to this, but I'm not sure I saw the numbers...? It would not be the first F/A I have heard of with overly tight throats.

I am unsure of the F/A's twist, but in my S&W .45 Colt, a heavy boolit needed a major boot in the backside to provide any accuracy. I can nearly match the velocities you seek in my 4" S&W using 2400. That may be a powder worth investigating as well.
All Freedom .45's have a 1 in 24" twist. The boolit needs to be driven hard.

[dubber123]

All Freedom .45's have a 1 in 24" twist. The boolit needs to be driven hard.

Unless that boolit is alot longer than I think it is, theres something else going on. I deliberately ordered my 6-1/2", 50-70 bbl. with a 1-26" twist, (even slower than the F/A .45's), and I shot a back to back pair of 50 yd. groups of .558", and .8", using 450 gr. boolits. I would think the 450 gr. .50 is as long or longer than a 270 gr. .45 cal. My velocity only runs about 1,000 fps. ???

[44man]

Unless that boolit is alot longer than I think it is, theres something else going on. I deliberately ordered my 6-1/2", 50-70 bbl. with a 1-26" twist, (even slower than the F/A .45's), and I shot a back to back pair of 50 yd. groups of .558", and .8", using 450 gr. boolits. I would think the 450 gr. .50 is as long or longer than a 270 gr. .45 cal. My velocity only runs about 1,000 fps. ???
Your .50 boolit is shorter for the same weight. Diameter can change twist needed. How would the 450 gr .50 cal match to the drive length of a 270 .45 boolit?
There are just too many other things to consider but I would take a faster twist any day for ease of working loads.
Isn't it strange that a Ruger .45 has a 1 in 16" twist and I can punch almost one hole at 50 yards with it using a very heavy boolit but the Freedom only has a 1 in 24' twist? It would seem to me the Freedom is better suited for a lighter boolit or a very fast heavy boolit.
I would even prefer a 1 in 18" twist in the .44 for heavy boolits.
Now look at the BFR revolvers, they have faster twist rates then any others. I hit targets to 500 meters that my rifles can never hope to hit. The 45-70 BFR has done .312" at 50 yards with a 1 in 14" twist. The .475 BFR does an inch and under at 100 with a 1 in 15" rate. I kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yards with it.
So your 50-70 shot great at 50 yards, can you show us what it does at 100, 200, out to 500 yards? I think you will be disappointed and see the boolit go unstable, maybe before 100 yards.
Now look at a round ball ML with a 1 in 60" to 1 in 66" twist, can you shoot a boolit? Get down to a 1 in 48" and it can shoot both boolits and a round ball if shot slow. Now why did the inlines go to 1 in 28" for sabots?
Twist is important in ANY gun depending on what you want to shoot or how far. BR shooters that only shoot 100 yards use a slow twist but it sucks at longer ranges. Varmint hunters with a 22-250 and a 1 in 12" twist need light bullets but switch to 1 in 10" and a 60 gr bullet will extend range to 600 yards like the 220 Swift.
Freedom guns have a habit of using too slow a twist for their larger calibers but do OK with the .44 and .41. The .357 needs a heavy boolit and the .454 and .475 is better with lighter boolits or max loads and above with heavy boolits.
You just need to find what your gun likes.
Yes, there are exceptions and a few get results that they should not get but I will stand by my case that you need a good match to start with.
I never compare a .50 to another caliber, keep things even.

[dubber123]

I see your points, but you must consider he isn't shooting at 200 yds. either, He's having problems at 50. The 450 gr. boolit I was shooting is right at 1" long, with .505" as bearing length. Given I have a 2" slower twist than him, and I am shooting at a slower velocity, his boolit would have to be a good bit longer than mine to be blaming the twist for a 50 yard accuracy problem.

The farthest I have shot mine is 200 meters, and that was at a 18" plate off hand. I wouldn't want my 18" **** standing out there when my unstable boolits found their way in... All your points are no doubt correct, but I don't see it washing for explaining a 50 yd. problem.

[targetshootr]

If the throats turn out to be .4515, I'd stop right there and not waste any more time or ammo until they're fixed.

[dubber123]

If the throats turn out to be .4515, I'd stop right there and not waste any more time or ammo until they're fixed.

Thats more along the lines of what I'm thinking. Especially if he got a gun with a fat barrel. Could be an unpleasant surprise, as with the F/A, you aren't likely to chamber a much fatter cartridge. Enlarging the throats won't help if the chamber is too tight to allow bigger boolits. :roll:

[Naphtali]

I prefer to adjust the bullet rather than alter the revolver. Chamber-barrel throat problems associated with other revolvers I anticipate are not present in Freedom Arms revolvers. If chambers are slightly undersize for 45 Colt, I anticipate the barrel and throat will be compatible with that [number]. That's why I would adjust bullets unless my small hole gage shows an incompatibility among chambers and barrel.

[dubber123]

I prefer to adjust the bullet rather than alter the revolver. Chamber-barrel throat problems associated with other revolvers I anticipate are not present in Freedom Arms revolvers. If chambers are slightly undersize for 45 Colt, I anticipate the barrel and throat will be compatible with that [number]. That's why I would adjust bullets unless my small hole gage shows an incompatibility among chambers and barrel.

Thats why I would check. As big of an F/A fan as I am, I have heard of the occasional blooper making it out of the factory. Until you are absolutely sure the throats are bigger than the barrel, you can never truly be sure of what is at the root of the problem, load/gun/shooter?.

[BCB]

Naphtlali,

I am using that boolit in my Ruger Blackhawk and it seems to shoot quite well…

I know you are shooting a FA handgun and my info might not matter at all, but I will still include it with your thread…

I am using the exact same reloading material/data as you are. The exception is I shoot mine as cast with Liquid Alox, but I also shoot them with RCBS stick lube. (Don’t know if it really matters which stick lube is used) The ones I am shooting with the stick lube are sized to 0.454”. I am getting 1145 fps and accuracy is about an inch at 25 yards and about 3” at 50 yards with open sights. I accept that for myself. Twenty-three grains of H-110 will give 1218 fps, but accuracy seems to be compromised by the extra 73 fps…

I think maybe part of the problem might be sizing to 0.541”. That seems a bit too small. Maybe try some as cast and lubed with Liquid Alox. That is how I shoot them with that lube...

I didn’t read all of the posts so maybe this was suggested, but it works well with my Blackhawk…

I really like that RCBS 45-270-SAA boolit. Mine weigh-in at 283 grains with an alloy of 2-1 (ww-#2)

Good-luck…

BCB

[44man]

Dubber, yes, I have seen things shoot that should not too and is why I say that the solution is to try everything.
Take the Freedom .475, I worked with one a lot with boolits all the way to 460 gr. As boolits got larger, groups did too. Not bad mind you but you always know what I am looking for.
Any way the 350 gr boolit shot near 1/2" at 50 yards with open sights.
Now my .44 with 330 gr boolits---it just should not shoot them with a 1 in 20 twist but it does and they are the boolits I got the 1-5/16" group with at 200 yards. Yeah, I screwed up the cherry and the boolit came out heavier then I wanted but now I would not change it.
Like you, I think Naphtali needs to slug his bore because I think it is going to be .452" and the throats are too small.
Look what happened with John's .357! The original barrel was .358" one way and .359" the other--out of round and the throats were .3575". The replacement barrel was .3585" and .3598" the other way. The third barrel is a perfect .357" but they also changed the cylinder and I don't know why, the first was perfect.
So yes, it does happen that a few escape that are not right. The amount of money you spend means little.
I don't know if it is true but I heard Freedom contracts out the barrels so the supplier is at fault. I firmly believe every barrel should be air gauged before being put on a gun. Bad ones should be returned to whoever made them. Make THEM bite the boolit or get another barrel maker. It has to hurt the bottom line to have to repair anything, Look at Lee, I don't know how they make money!
Lyman and RCBS continue to turn out under size molds. Ruger with the .45 throats.
Companies do not realize that us shooters have become more sophisticated and expect MOA revolvers and molds to match, anything just doesn't work anymore.

[Bucks Owin]

I would certainly slug that barrel as a matter of course. Until that is done, you're shooting in the dark. If it comes in at .452" then you can ream the throats to .4525" and resume your search for accurate loads. I'm kinda surprised that that an FA has a problem in this area. A Ruger .45, yes, (I've recently heard of one with a .448" bore!) but I've always considered FA to be the finest commercial SA made. Did you buy the gun new? Was there a test target?

[August]

If I understand correctly, you're getting 1/2 inch dispersion on the vertical axis and 8 inches on the horizontal. Is that correct?

Everything I know about load development says when you get vertical dispersion to a minimum, you're done with load development.

So, I'd look at (in this order): Rear sight mounting, grip frame screws, extractor shield warping and screw, front sight soldering. Then, I'd start working on the variables associated with the shooter and technique.

It's not the load.

[Bucks Owin]

If I understand correctly, you're getting 1/2 inch dispersion on the vertical axis and 8 inches on the horizontal. Is that correct?

Everything I know about load development says when you get vertical dispersion to a minimum, you're done with load development.

So, I'd look at (in this order): Rear sight mounting, grip frame screws, extractor shield warping and screw, front sight soldering. Then, I'd start working on the variables associated with the shooter and technique.

It's not the load.

Glad you posted. I went back and discovered his group isn't 5 inches vertical and 8 inches horizontal! I couldn't imagine a FA shooting like that! My mistake :oops:

[44man]

Glad you posted. I went back and discovered his group isn't 5 inches vertical and 8 inches horizontal! I couldn't imagine a FA shooting like that! My mistake :oops:
He should still check out his gun but it has been suggested a few times that he might be the problem. He might be letting the gun torque in his hand or is pushing it over with his trigger finger.
It takes a lot to overcome recoil and lose all fear of it. POI of a handgun is totally dependent on recoil and how it is managed. You can't just sit back behind the gun and let it do what it wants.

[dubber123]

He should still check out his gun but it has been suggested a few times that he might be the problem. He might be letting the gun torque in his hand or is pushing it over with his trigger finger.
It takes a lot to overcome recoil and lose all fear of it. POI of a handgun is totally dependent on recoil and how it is managed. You can't just sit back behind the gun and let it do what it wants.

Now that is good advise. I truly understand what you mean about matching boolit weight/length to a correct twist, but in this case, at the short range with the not-so-heavy boolit, I suspect the answer will be found elsewhere.

If I read correctly, Napthali has no problems shooting his larger framed F/A's, maybe the smaller gun is giving him fits with consistant grip? Some guys absolutely cannot shoot J-frame Smiths. Doesn't mean they are inaccurate, just that particular sized grip just won't work for them.

[Naphtali]

My decimal inch writing is less clear than it should be. My group is 1/2 inch on the vertical and Montana to Pennsylvania on the horizontal.

You have furnished several useful potential trouble spots to investigate. As I eliminate them one-by-one I'll keep you posted on where the sticking point was - before I fixed it.