Bearing surface and sizing

[Humbo]

I was lucky enough to get my hands on a Lyman 454647 mold for the .454 Casull. But man are these boolits hard to size. Is it because of the large bearing surface? I size them down less than .001, and still I am afraid that I might break the handles on my sizers. The LBT LFN in the same weight range go through like butter, I size them down about .001 as well and they are cast from the same alloy. If I run an already sized boolit through after every unsized one, it goes better. But it seriously defeats the purpose of having the fast Star sizers. What do you guys do with those hard-to-size boolits?

On the left you have the LBT 300LFNGC, to the right is the Lyman 454647.
Thanks!

[243winxb]

How do they size without the gas check? Home made gas check?

[Humbo]

I have yet to try sizing without the gas check. Will cast some more of these later today and try, but with the LBT there is no noticeable difference between with and without GC. They are made by Hornady.

[cajun shooter]

Spray them with a case lube before sizing or use some Alox by dipping them in a mix of it with mineral spirits.

[HeavyMetal]

You've got more bearing surface with the Lyman boolit but not by much!

Cast you next batch and run a few through the Star with out the GC. If the effort is noticeably less I will suggest you "mike" the GC shank area on the boolit. Just a Thousandth will make a noticeable difference in the amount of pressure needed to size any boolit.

That may be the problem here.

The only other thing I can think of is check and see how far these enter the sizing die before you "hit" the sizing portion of the die. It could be that your changing the position of the handle enough to actually alter the leverage point and thus it feels like it's harder to size because you can't get the mechanical leverage at the same point as the LBT boolits.

[Humbo]

Thanks guys, those are some good pointers. Will try them out and give an update later.

[Leftoverdj]

Something is wrong here. There is no reason why two bullets of the same as cast diameter, of the same alloy, run through the same sizer, should show an appreciable difference in resistance. There is something going on that we have not been told.

If one batch was waterquenched and the other was not, there would be a difference. If one was sized immediately after casting and the other was age hardened, there would be a difference.

[StarMetal]

You got the answer...the Lyman has lots more friction because it has lots more bearing surface. In fact looking at your pics the Lyman almost looks swaged. Try sizing a piece of the same alloy with no lube grooves and same amount of total bearing surface and tell us what you fine?

Joe

[44man]

That Lyman was sized enough to almost remove the crimp groove.
I have never had any boolit that was hard to size in any sizer unless it was way over size to start with.

[243winxb]

A high content of antimony would be had to size if sizing down .003" or more. I cast bullets using magnum shot, 6% antimony. Dropped from the mould @ .433"+ Very had to size down to .430" in my lyman 450. If water dropping, different amount of antimony will harden the bullets faster. So, how soon you size after heat treating can make a difference. Alloy of 2% antimony can take up to 3 weeks to fully harden. 4% or 6% or higher can harden fully in 30 minutes.

[Humbo]

44man, the bullet looks like that before sizing also, the crimp and lube grooves are very shallow.

Before sizing:

[44man]

44man, the bullet looks like that before sizing also, the crimp and lube grooves are very shallow.

Before sizing:
OK, that is a much better picture. Strange looking boolit though. :veryconfu

[runfiverun]

the top one ain't a crimp groove its a lube groove too
the shallow lube grooves gives the extra lead nowhere to go, and you are trying to make the boolit longer plus crimp on a check.
thus the extra effort.
try sizing a boolit with no lube grooves sometime.
i have used a couple of drops of dishsoap in some water and let the boolits sit in it as i've sized them.

[stubshaft]

the top one ain't a crimp groove its a lube groove too
the shallow lube grooves gives the extra lead nowhere to go, and you are trying to make the boolit longer plus crimp on a check.
thus the extra effort.
try sizing a boolit with no lube grooves sometime.
i have used a couple of drops of dishsoap in some water and let the boolits sit in it as i've sized them.

Does the soapy water affect the way the loob adheres to the groove?

[runfiverun]

hasn't so far.
but i use a low phosphorus soap.

[StarMetal]

the top one ain't a crimp groove its a lube groove too
the shallow lube grooves gives the extra lead nowhere to go, and you are trying to make the boolit longer plus crimp on a check.
thus the extra effort.
try sizing a boolit with no lube grooves sometime.
i have used a couple of drops of dishsoap in some water and let the boolits sit in it as i've sized them.

run,

Lyman made that bullet for the 454 Casull, that is most definitely a crimp groove. Look how shallow it is too. If there were any revolver that needed a good crimp it's the 454 Casull.

Joe

[Humbo]

A little update, bullets are easier to size without the gas check, even without any lube applied. Shank is not oversized, but it makes a difference nonetheless. Will try to size all bullets twice, first without gas check and lube. I wish the lube grooves very slightly larger though, not much lube goes in there.

[StarMetal]

A little update, bullets are easier to size without the gas check, even without any lube applied. Shank is not oversized, but it makes a difference nonetheless. Will try to size all bullets twice, first without gas check and lube. I wish the lube grooves very slightly larger though, not much lube goes in there.


Sizing without lube makes the lube grooves smaller. If you have to size twice it would be best to fill the grooves with lube by hand. Yes I know that is inconvenient but you don't want to make the grooves smaller. Be careful too that when you size without a gas check that the gas check shank doesn't become flattened and wider or you will have a hard time getting the check on.

Joe

[runfiverun]

thats a horrible crimp groove.
no taper, no forward momentum stop, waay too much working the brass.
and a good one for bulging cases.

[StarMetal]

thats a horrible crimp groove.
no taper, no forward momentum stop, waay too much working the brass.
and a good one for bulging cases.

Run,

I agree it could be better, but I could work with it and not bulge my cases. I've also used very heavy roll crimp and not lost my brass too. I like RCBS's crimp grooves, they are tapered like you said too.

Joe

[Humbo]

I admit, both crimp and lube grooves could be different, but this boolit is actually very accurate. Getting a decent crimp isn't a problem, and it doesn't look like the brass is worked more than it has to. My only real concern is the small lube grooves, with such a large bearing surface I'd feel better with more lube on it to prevent any leading.

[runfiverun]

time to do something a bit unorthodox then.
do as you have been,but add a tumble lube to some and check the results. or wipe some lanolin on the boolit.
i'd only add lube if i was seeing leading.
your bbl is pretty short so you only need to have enough to go 10"
try a soft lube,or a moly...
try a stearate sodium or lithium.
i'd try less lube first,actually. let the g/c do it's job.

[Humbo]

I will load up 50 of them and see if they lead. I haven't had the chance to shoot more than about 20 of them so far. I have some Lee liquid alox lying around, maybe I can try with some of that if needed.

[243winxb]

with such a large bearing surface I'd feel better with more lube on it to prevent any leading. In 44mag, i have sized and lubed in my Lyman 450 using NRA type 50/50 alox/beeswax. Then gave the bullets an extra coating of Xlox tumble lubed. Works well, no problems, i did not wipe the base of the bullets. To be safe, dont let them sit in the sun, only good to 130 degrees max.

[cbrick]

I frequently size and gas check without lube bullets that will be heat treated. Sizing without lube would not be much fun and would be tough on the die, the machine and me so I keep a small amount of Hornadys paste case lube on my fingers. It takes very little and just handling the boolits to place them in the die keeps them sliding right through. After HT I run them through a die .001" larger to lube them.

Rick