Fun with NICS

[watkibe]

Being delayed on a NICS check is bad enough. Being wrongly denied is a real gut-wrenching experience. I know this from experience, since I have been denied a firearm purchase 3 times in the last 15 years. Just this week though, I bought 2 guns perfectly legally. It’s possible to appeal a denial and win. There were times when I doubted I would ever get my rights back, but I was persistent and eventually I succeeded.
The first time was before NICS. The dealer would call the FBI and get “proceed, denied, or delayed” just like now. The delay could only be 5 days long; if there was no response by then, you got your gun. I was “delayed”. With no response, I picked my purchase up 5 days later. A week after that, I got a call from the ATF, telling me that I was illegally in possession of a firearm. Now, this part might be hard to believe by somebody who has read too many “jack-booted thugs” articles about the ATF, Ruby Ridge, and Waco; but it is my true experience. The agent asked me if there was anyone who I could give my guns to until the appeal went through. I asked if I could just give the keys to my gun locker to my wife, and he said that was OK. I had a gun at a pawn shop I wanted to pick up, but another background check was needed to get it. The agent volunteered to meet us at the pawn shop and he authorized the pawn broker to release the gun to my wife after her background check. The agent told me that the reason for the denial was a juvenile conviction that was supposed to be expunged but wasn’t. He treated us with courtesy and respect at all times. I filed my appeal and I eventually got a letter from the FBI that said I could pick up my gun.
A few years later, my liver began to fail. The symptoms of encephalopathy were misdiagnosed as mental illness; I was committed, and lost my firearms rights. When the doctors figured out what was really wrong with me, they fixed it. My doctor wrote a letter to the court, and with the help of the public defender who had represented me at the commitment hearing, I went to court and got my rights restored. The court order directed the clerk to notify the FBI and the state DHS/Mental Health departments. I got no letter this time, but by phone, NICS told me that a background check would go through if I wanted to buy a gun.
Things went fine for two years, when I was denied for the third time. In response to my appeal, the FBI said that they had changed their mind. Restoration of state firearm rights does not automatically restore federal rights. This time was more difficult, partly because the state DHS had no federal compliance officer at the time. When they got one, I reopened my appeal. Meanwhile, the 2007 NICS Improvement Act had been passed after the horrible school shooting at Virginia Tech. This act forced the states to report, and the federal government to accept, all changes in a persons firearms rights. This included making the feds acknowledge that my rights had been restored. I got another call from NICS, saying they were investigating my appeal, and needed releases for my medical records. I gave them a very narrow release.
I received a letter from NICS saying that my appeal had been granted, but I could not buy a gun. The records used by NICS can only be added to; nothing may be removed. The things that caused the denial will always be there. The only course open to me was to file an application for a Voluntary Appeal File. In order to “protect my rights” ( by this time it’s almost funny) the only way I can get NICS to keep the information on my granted appeal is if I voluntarily ask them to. I sent the application off, and I got the final letter.
The final letter gives me a Unique Personal Identifying Number (UPIN). When I fill out the 4473, there is a box to write my number in. I now have no problems exercising my firearms rights.
In concluding, I would say that the FBI, ATF, and NICS, were all polite, helpful, respectful, and incredibly bureaucratic and slow. They are also extremely strict and literal about what is legal and what isn’t. I wish it hadn’t all happened. I’m glad it’s over. Hunting, reloading, and shooting are my hobbies and my passions. The idea that these had been taken away from me wrongly was intolerable. I knew I was right, and I persisted until they passed a law that said so. If you have a similar experience, I hope my story gives you some hope that there is a way out of it. If it had to happen though, I’m glad it happened in America. In a way, it restored my faith in our system. It’s a terrible system, but it’s better than all the other ones !

[HollandNut]

Never been denied , but have been a FFL ..

I always was treated with respect and dignity with my dealings with them all ..

[MakeMineA10mm]

That's a horrible and simultaneously hopeful story.

I've been denied many, many times. As someone who had exercised firearms purchase rights, literally hundreds of times before NICS came about (and in the only state in America with an Firearms Owner's ID card), it came as quite a shock to be delayed on my first purchase after NICS was instituted.

So, I asked the dealer to call NICS back and enquire about the delay while I was there at the shop. He did so, and he said he was told it was because my name was showing up on too many police reports... Now, having been in law enforcement for more than a few years at that point, that sounded plausible, but having run criminal histories, I knew that the only info that comes back on a criminal history check is arrests and convictions, none of which I had. (Now, I DO have my finger prints on file, as all LEOs do, and those would come back on a CQH/CCH. And, fingerprint identifiers also come back on convicted criminals' CQH/CCH too, but no criminal record would exist on mine, vs. a list of all arrests on a criminals -- Should be easy to differentiate the two, I'd think...)

After a couple more delays (at different FFL dealers), I put down my Social Security Number on the 4473 on my fourth or fifth purchase. That one went through with no problems. Now, I also know (as an LEO) that SSN, combined with DOB and other identifiers give enough differentiation between people with the same or similar names, that this simple extra step of giving one more piece of information was enough to get me approved quickly.

I thought I had a pretty unusual name, but apparently, it is not. I checked facebook, and there are 27 people with an identical name to mine, and googling my name brought up 80+... :coffeecom

So, my one bit of advice on a much less arduous set of problems than you had, is to provide extra info., even if it goes against your libertarian streak, because it makes it easier/faster to prove it's you, rather than a criminal who happens to share your name.

[pmeisel]

My name isn't that common, and yet I have identified three other people with the same name without really trying very hard.

[AZ-Stew]

When Arizona implemented CCW, and the Feds made it legal to use the CCW as ID for purchases without having to go through NCIS, all my potential problems went away. I had never been denied, but my name is common enough that denial could easily happen through misidentification. Now I just show my CCW to the dealer who records the number on the 4473 and I'm done.

Regards,

Stew

[45nut]

It’s a terrible system.

Well,, thats all I need to quote.

[troy_mclure]

i was delayed once cause the dealer misread my social.
was also told i was denied at a gunshow a few months ago, but he had the wrong 4473, first person id ever seen denied. the guy seemed real surprised tho.

[cajun shooter]

I'm a former cop and have been delayed on every gun purchase since 2001. At first it did not bother me as any gun that I buy is not needed right now. That was until I wanted to make a gun show purchase and saw a gun I wanted go the other way. I then went to go to Canada on a bear hunt that was paid for by my very nice father-in-law and was kept at the border for 3 1/2 hrs and everything in my truck searched twice. I called the local ATF office and they told me about the pin number that was available from the FBI. I called the FBI in New Orleans and they knew nothing about the process. A fellow officer and friend owns a gun store in Baton Rouge and I told him about my problem. He reached under the counter and gave me the paper work for the PIN. I sent the paper work in at the end of June and still have no answer.

[madsenshooter]

I had a lot of fun with the Dept of Justice when I applied for a C&R, first they sent a request for more info to the wrong zip code. Then I had to hassle around and prove, that a Disorderly Conduct from 30 years ago didn't have an element of domestic violence in it. Guilty until proven innocent I guess. Seems they should be the ones proving why something should be denied, they have better connections to the courts and PDs than I do! I hadn't tried to purchase a gun for quite some time and this relatively new legislation caught me quite by surprise. Watkibe, I gotta sympathize with you on the encephalopathy, survived one myself, no thanks to the doctors who would have killed me had I taken the drugs they wanted me too. It was a wild ride to say the least about it. Took a lot of vitamins, minerals, herbs and amino acids to get me back from the edge of death, which is just where I was at. Had to go to college when I was in my 30's to confirm what had happened to me. Printing chemicals, primarily methylene chloride, was what had my liver going. The up and down doubles of reflective signs, lane markers, and stop lights was sorta neat, made driving a little hard at night though!

[SharpsShooter]

Well,, thats all I need to quote.

I couldn't agree more. I have never been denied, but refuse to jump through the govt hoops to purchase a firearm. I buy or trade with private individuals who like me believe the the U.S. govt has no business being involved in or regulating what is clearly defined in the 2nd amendment.

If the BATF promises not to get emotionally attached, they can K.M.A.


SS

[kywoodwrkr]

Never been denied , but have been a FFL ..
I went into a local dealer whom I bought from and who had a copy of my 01 FFL.
Prices were same so I decided to go the private route and buy an M1 he had.
NICS stalled the buy.
Went back few days later and it finally cleared.
This went on for about a year and then problem went away.
And these folks think they can manage a national health care program?

[beagle]

I had problems with delays when NICS was first implemented and then they fixed whatever the glitch was.

My gunshop dealer told me it was because I had a DOD Top Secret clearance that was active at the time. He said that whenever the computer hit that, they manually had to access the DOD files before I could be granted a clearance to buy. That has caused up to three hour delays before.

The last few times, I've purchased a gun, it's gone right through so they must have fixed it as it comes right back now./beagle

[Shiloh]

I was denied, I appealed and won my appeal. Took six months from start to finish.

Had to be fingerprinted send them in and wait. A week after I took the firearm home a Rem pump .22LR, the dealer told me to bring it back. Anyone heard of a retroactive denial??

SHiloh

[JRW]

Ive never heard of such. he should have had the clearance prior to release. maybe he just wanted the rifle back?

[peter nap]

I used to do contract work for the FBI. It was sensitive enough to require a supervisor to sign off on ANY REQUEST.

I kept being put on the 48 hour wait because they always piddled around having it signed off on. I got tired of it and did only FTF purchases for ten years or so. Didn't make an FFL purchase until last year and apparently, they got it straight.

[Freightman]

At the gun shop I worked at I saw only one denied and that afternoon a FBI agent dropped by and got the address off the form and made the statement "wish I had been here we have been after him for two years". Now how smart do you have to be to put your name, SS no, and address on a federal form?

[Marlin Hunter]

A few years later, my liver began to fail. The symptoms of encephalopathy were misdiagnosed as mental illness; I was committed, and lost my firearms rights. When the doctors figured out what was really wrong with me, they fixed it.


This is probably the worst think that can happen to anyone. I professional person misdiagnoses something and the victim suffers or dies, and of course there is never compensation for their incompetence.

[Jim_Fleming]

Stew, are you saying that my PA CCL will serve in lieu of a NICS check?





When Arizona implemented CCW, and the Feds made it legal to use the CCW as ID for purchases without having to go through NCIS, all my potential problems went away. I had never been denied, but my name is common enough that denial could easily happen through misidentification. Now I just show my CCW to the dealer who records the number on the 4473 and I'm done.

Regards,

Stew

[Daxione]

I think in PA, the CCL is no longer valid for purchase, still need the NICS check.

[rusty marlin]

This is probably the worst think that can happen to anyone. I professional person misdiagnoses something and the victim suffers or dies, and of course there is never compensation for their incompetence.

That's why doctors call what they do "practice".

[watkibe]

In Washington, you used to be able to avoid the background check if you had a concealed weapon permit, but not anymore since NICS.

Hey Shiloh and JRW - that's what I wrote about above. My second denial was retroactive.

[troy_mclure]

so how would if it work if you took the gun home, shot it for a coupla days, then they called and said bring it back?

who would get stuck with the loss? it sure wouldn't be me, id gift the gun to a family/friend first.

[JRW]

Hey Shiloh and JRW - that's what I wrote about above. My second denial was retroactive.

I am unaware of a "retroactive denial"... Doesn't mean they haven't invented it, however. This might be something that has snuck in on us.

It is my understanding here in AZ, that the seller must have the clearance prior to releasing the firearm. If the buyer shows a valid CCW permit, then the seller records the number on the 4473 and all parties are happy.

I've not had any personal experience with denials other than when they first implemented the system and with a common name, I did not have my SSn on the 4473. it took them some extra work to complete the check.

Perhaps others more knowledgable than I could chime in here.....:confused:

[Jim_Fleming]

Dax, you could well be correct, I've not bought a firearm for a long time, and that last one was in Ohio, when I was living there... A Ruger MKII.

I guess I'll have to try to find out...



I think in PA, the CCL is no longer valid for purchase, still need the NICS check.

[Bret4207]

This is probably the worst think that can happen to anyone. I professional person misdiagnoses something and the victim suffers or dies, and of course there is never compensation for their incompetence.

Then where do all those malpractice lawsuits come from? What gets me is the ambulance chasers will hound a doctor to death over a breast enhancement job that didn't come out "even" but never seem interested in the cases where clear misdiagnosis ruins a persons health. My father in law had a simple tooth infection that spread to his heart and caused multiple strokes. No help from the ambulance chasers and the inlaws aren't the type ( they have character) to pursue that type of thing anyway. Doesn't help my FIL though.

[tomf52]

Makemine10mm - You are not the only state that has a firearms owners ID card. NJ has one too. NJ will drive you nuts. Can't own anything 50 cal or above, nothing capable of more than 10 rounds capacity, etc, etc. One of the reasons I left that state.

[watkibe]

I am unaware of a "retroactive denial"... Doesn't mean they haven't invented it, however. This might be something that has snuck in on us.

It is my understanding here in AZ, that the seller must have the clearance prior to releasing the firearm. If the buyer shows a valid CCW permit, then the seller records the number on the 4473 and all parties are happy.

I've not had any personal experience with denials other than when they first implemented the system and with a common name, I did not have my SSn on the 4473. it took them some extra work to complete the check.

Perhaps others more knowledgable than I could chime in here.....:confused:

Before NICS, the FBI/ATF had 5 days to say proceed or denied. If they delayed you and didn't respond in 5 days, the dealer could release the gun to you. That's what happened to me, and I got the call from the ATF that I wrote about above. I suspect that it can't happen anymore since the inception of NICS.

[dakotashooter2]

I received a letter from NICS saying that my appeal had been granted, but I could not buy a gun. The records used by NICS can only be added to; nothing may be removed. The things that caused the denial will always be there. The only course open to me was to file an application for a Voluntary Appeal File. In order to “protect my rights” ( by this time it’s almost funny) the only way I can get NICS to keep the information on my granted appeal is if I voluntarily ask them to. I sent the application off, and I got the final letter.

This seems contradictory. They can put any detrimental info in your files and can't remove it, but you have to ASK them to keep the information on an appeal which they are part of and should be part of the file anyway. Sounds like someone is playing games.

[watkibe]

This seems contradictory. They can put any detrimental info in your files and can't remove it, but you have to ASK them to keep the information on an appeal which they are part of and should be part of the file anyway. Sounds like someone is playing games.

Actually, this feature came about at the request of the NRA. Their concern was that NICS didn't keep records of gun sales. In fact, NICS can't keep any record of gun sales. They have to destroy all records, I think within 5 days. The negative hits all come from other data bases, like NCIC, so techically, they are not stored by NICS. By the same token, they can't keep a record of a successful appeal unless you ask them to. Sounds screwy, but that's how it is.

[lamina1982]

Wow, sounds like you guys have it pretty easy. Not sure if any of you are from the communist sate of ny. In Ny state you need a ccw to get handgun. This takes a full fbi background check, fingerprints, and personael recommendations. This process takes 6months to ayear depending on what county you live in. I live in erie which is one of the worst. For me to get a handgun i have to go to dealer, then take receipt and go down town and pay $3 to get gun on my permit-receive a card then back to dealer to get gun. Ive only had my ccw about 5-6 yrs. I bought first 3 guns no problem wityh nics or anything. last year i bought an encore and was delayed- i received call 3 days later all was well i could get my gun. I buy a gun maybe 6 months ago all goes through fine. Few months ago i finally save up enough put downpayment on a used superblackhawk 5 1/2" nickel plated 44 mag- super sweet gun and super excited abouted. takes me 2 months to pay off. go to gun store they do nics delayed-they say go put on permit should b cleared few days. i jump through hoops go downtown and gun put on my permit. few days later get a call i was denied i asked how can that be i have my pistol permit if got into trouble that would have been revoked. he says ya thats crazy but u have to come down and well give u money back-now guns already on my permit now. so another trip and $3 to get removed-plus i missed out on this great gun. So i send in my appeal-they say either i have a warrant or some conviction-now if this was true id lose my permit. they have no problems with me keeping my current guns i cant buy more ya that makes sense. so now i have to send fingerprints to prove who i am to see if i can get any more details-duh fbi already has my prints from permit. what a hassle. so i can buy a gun from any joe smo perfectly legal but if i need govt checking its a no go. im so discouraged it really put a damper on my deer hunting plans, i have other guns but was really dreaming of that super blackhawk. hows that for the govt giving it to ya

[Jim]

I worked in a police supply business for a few months a coupla' years back and I saw LOTS of officers denied by NICS. I asked the mgr. how come and I was told there's no rhyme or reason for it, that NICS is just funny like that. Seems backwards to me.

[HNSB]

I haven't been denied yet, but I get the 5 day delay everytime I buy a gun.

[Cadillo]

When Arizona implemented CCW, and the Feds made it legal to use the CCW as ID for purchases without having to go through NCIS, all my potential problems went away. I had never been denied, but my name is common enough that denial could easily happen through misidentification. Now I just show my CCW to the dealer who records the number on the 4473 and I'm done.

Regards,

Stew

I live in Texas. I'm a retired Federal LEO. I've never been arrested, and my only brushes with the law were two speeding tickets; one in 1970 and the other in 1974. The fines were $15.00 and $40,00 respectively and were paid promptly.

Several times I attempted to pick up a gun I had bought while in uniform and armed, and was refused due to some sort of similarity between my name and SSN as compared to someone else's. I once had to wait three days to be cleared. How absurd, being authorized to carry a gun including automatic weapons anywhere in the U.S., but unable to take receipt of a newly purchased firearm without a major hassle.

I got around the problem by getting a CHL and that cured the problem in that the dealer merely has to document the license number on the 4473.

The system is a joke. The problem where I live is straw purchases. I don't know how many times I have watched women, who clearly don't know anything about what they are buying, purchasing AR-15's and AK-47's. The last one I saw, the gal was on her cell phone getting last minute instructions from her cohert as she finalized her selection. It was obvious to anyone who cared exactly what was going on.

Please don't anyone tell me that I'm bashing women. I'm not. I've known several who could outshoot most men, and I've worked with some men who could barely shoot the ground if they needed to.

The system is a joke.

[Rockydog]

When I lived in Iowa you had to go to the local sherriff. To get a permit to purchase a handgun. This permit also allowed you to buy rifles and take them home with you. Otherwise you had to wait 3 days to pick up a rifle after purchase. I had renewed my permit every year. About 4 years after I moved there my permit was delayed by the sherriffs office for about 3 weeks. They wouldn't tell me why over the phone but asked that I come to the sherriffs office. When I arrived he took me behind closed doors and asked a bunch of questions about where I was from, what I did in the community etc. Then he asked me to strip to the waist to look for tattoos. Turns out there was a wanted, previously convivted, felon in another state who has the same name as mine with a birthdate one year to the day earlier than mine. I eventually got the permit. Never had aproblem with NICS though. RD

[Storydude]

Wow, sounds like you guys have it pretty easy. Not sure if any of you are from the communist sate of ny. In Ny state you need a ccw to get handgun. This takes a full fbi background check, fingerprints, and personael recommendations. This process takes 6months to ayear depending on what county you live in. I live in erie which is one of the worst. For me to get a handgun i have to go to dealer, then take receipt and go down town and pay $3 to get gun on my permit-receive a card then back to dealer to get gun. Ive only had my ccw about 5-6 yrs. I bought first 3 guns no problem wityh nics or anything. last year i bought an encore and was delayed- i received call 3 days later all was well i could get my gun. I buy a gun maybe 6 months ago all goes through fine. Few months ago i finally save up enough put downpayment on a used superblackhawk 5 1/2" nickel plated 44 mag- super sweet gun and super excited abouted. takes me 2 months to pay off. go to gun store they do nics delayed-they say go put on permit should b cleared few days. i jump through hoops go downtown and gun put on my permit. few days later get a call i was denied i asked how can that be i have my pistol permit if got into trouble that would have been revoked. he says ya thats crazy but u have to come down and well give u money back-now guns already on my permit now. so another trip and $3 to get removed-plus i missed out on this great gun. So i send in my appeal-they say either i have a warrant or some conviction-now if this was true id lose my permit. they have no problems with me keeping my current guns i cant buy more ya that makes sense. so now i have to send fingerprints to prove who i am to see if i can get any more details-duh fbi already has my prints from permit. what a hassle. so i can buy a gun from any joe smo perfectly legal but if i need govt checking its a no go. im so discouraged it really put a damper on my deer hunting plans, i have other guns but was really dreaming of that super blackhawk. hows that for the govt giving it to ya


Welcome to NYS.

FWIW, I'm in Buffalo. It took getting an 03 FFL, 8 months and being a landowner before they gave me mine.

[lamina1982]

Well I've lived here my hole life, just more into handguns last 5 yrs shows how messed up govt is.. I'm just outside of buffao..hmmm

[watkibe]

This is another example of the federal government expanding their power outside the law. If they "allow" things they would really like to make illegal but can't, they make it so hard to do that you may give up. Congress may write the laws, but unelected career civil service bureaucrats make the federal rules and regulations to implement the laws. The rules and regs are how they discourage you. By the way, these bureaucrats are usually not the ones that you and I deal with. The people we meet usually just want to do want to do their job the way their boss tells them is legal. It's the bosses that decide how to implement the law.
Other examples includes federal taxation and funding policies that encourage or discourage certain policies and activities. Also, judges can interpret the laws in a way that effectively writes new legislation. Finally, the president can do almost any thing by executive order...

[batman]

I have been a wanted felon since 1996, the thing is in Ohio I am 5'4"and in florida I am 6'
4".one week I am ok the next wanted.IT is so dumb that the town cop holds his thumb up or down to tell me with way it is.

[dsmjon]

I'd prefer to just remain under the radar. But with a name like Jon Smith, it can be a real PITA sometimes!!! 50% of the sellers think I'm giving an alias, the other half think I'm some felonious child molester from Indiana, while the rest of the folk ask if my wife's name is Pocahontas... in which case I answer to the affirmative, and that she is celebrating her 393rd Bday next week.

[dsmjon]

This is also a perfect example as to why you should buy used guns. 99.9% of the people won't keep records like they *should* (to cover their own tails), and thus big brother will have one helluva time tracing something to my possession.

[NuJudge]

For the background check, they ask, but do not demand, your Social Security number. I've always given mine. Right after the Instant Check process started, I started getting delayed always. I don't believe there was an appeal or complaint process then. I called my Congressman, and he told me to write the US Attorney General, and I did. About 4 months later I get a call from the US Department of Justice, and they told me that a New Hampshire Police Officer mis-entered a felon's Social Security number when arresting him, kicking two digits, and the way he entered it was my number.

Since then no problems.