9mm Bergmann, or Largo, or 9X23

[leftiye]

Can't get brass? Mine will shoot .38 super (virtually identical except the .38 has a little larger rim) FWIW. Sarco has (maybe still) Star Modelo Supers for $145.00. Sweet gun, I luff it! Really good feel, I like the ctg. too.:grin:

[StarMetal]

Can't get brass? Mine will shoot .38 super (virtually identical except the .38 has a little larger rim) FWIW. Sarco has (maybe still) Star Modelo Supers for $145.00. Sweet gun, I luff it! Really good feel, I like the ctg. too.:grin:

Why not shoot the right stuff?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=941233451

Joe

[Harry O]

I got a bunch of 9x23 brass off the internet that cost less than the Starline brass. The brass of each is identical (within 0.001" anywhere). It works great in an Astra 400.

I called Sarco twice about the Modelo Super (once early this year and once in midsummer). Both times they told me they were sold out. However, it is still in their webpage and in their paper ad. I don't know what that is all about.

[Gerry N.]

Why not shoot the right stuff?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=941233451

Joe

Because sometimes "The Right Stuff" simply is not available. When I got my Destroyer Carbine, the only brass I could find that would work in it was .38 Super.

I have since modified my Destroyer to accept 9mm Parabellum. Ammo problem solved.

Gerry N.

[45 2.1]

Can't get brass? Mine will shoot .38 super (virtually identical except the .38 has a little larger rim) FWIW. Sarco has (maybe still) Star Modelo Supers for $145.00. Sweet gun, I luff it! Really good feel, I like the ctg. too.:grin:

What you are looking for is 9mm Largo. You can buy brass from Starline. Good brass BTW. The original cartridge used by the Spanish was called the 9mm Bergman Bayard, now called the 9mm Largo by the brass makers. Almost like the 9mm Steyr in dimensions. 38 Super brass may be used, but the rims suffer quite a bit.

[leftiye]

As Harry O said, and I said, they're virtually identical. Why not shoot the right stuff? Why not shoot the .38 Super? I called Midway several times to get Starline 9X23. Got the "out of stock, we can back order them" line. I don't back order anything from Midway (learned the hard way). The only people I know of that have less of an idea when their backorders will come in than Midway is Sarco.

Sarco still has the Star Modelo Supers (called them again this morning) - but you have to place your order and wait. They keep getting a few in at a time from their supplier. They had a big bunch earlier in the summer and sent them back for repairs. As I said a really well balanced gun (for my hand). You have to work over the extractor to get them to work smoothly with .38 sooper.

[jjohnson]

Just to make sure everyone understands, the 9mm Largo brass is very close to the same size as .38 Super, but the Largo round was designed for pressures in the same ballpark as .38ACP, not .38 Super, so don't get over ambitious and try to make the Largo act like a 9x23 Winchester.

I like my Spanish Largo pistols, and they DO work just fine with .38 Super brass, just wanted to caution folks to not try to shoot factory .38 Super or (gawd) 9x23 Winchester ammo in one.

[Franklin Zeman]

Question for Gerry N. Did the change to 9 alter the accuracy of the Destroyer? Is your bore more like .38 Spl then 9? How does the 9 work out of the magazine? Did you do the rechamber yourself? E-mail me at: franklinzeman@sbcglobal.net if convenient.

[leftiye]

Though the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard may have been a lower pressure cartridge, Many of the Largo chambered guns were also chambered for the 9mm parabellum (Luger) ie. the same gun, same model. Star peestolas with the loaded chamber indicator were manufactured until in the 80s. The largo and the parabellum have the same headsize, and the latter functions at 30,000psi up to 50,000psi (european loadings). At least the later star pistols will handle the pressure, though it might beat your gun up pretty fast to shoot those hot loads due to fast slide travel speeds.

[Two Old Dogs]

leftyie: I don't know where you got your European pressure figures, but my CIP (Europe's equivalent to SAMMI) tables show a maximum pressure for the 9mm Luger (Parabelllum) at 34000 psi.

Starline 38 Super Competition Brass which is rimless (in stock at Midway 2 weeks ago) is the best substitute for 9mm Largo as the dimensions are within .005 and there is no rim to contend with..

Loads for the 9mm Largo should be kept below the 26000 psi range. .38 ACP (Not .38 Super)
loading tables are equivalant and can be found in older Lyman and other loading manuals or on the internet.

[Franklin Zeman]

Mine is marked 9mm Bergmann. It accepts and ejects 38 Super brass. Have not had the first problem with using that brass. Slugged the barrel and use cast only in it. Fun gun. I think the Bergmann is properly the Bergmann/Bayard. As noted, extremely close to the intended cartridge in size.
The bolt has two lugs plus the bolt handle. The lugs are about 2 and 5/8 inch back from the face of the bolt. The bolt handle is for camming out extraction. I put a williams peep sight on it as the issue sights were some what lacking for an old fart. The stock was cracked at the wrist, so I installed a bolt and nut with washers and counter sunk them to avoid eating up the palm of my hand. Cut the stock forearm back and roughed out a small schnable. Weighs about the same as a .22, but takes a squirrel right out of a tall branch with ease. The lock time you could eat a peanut butter sandwich waiting for it to hit. The trigger pull is lengthy also. Not enthralled with the cock on closing either. It is SO different it is a real lark!!!!

[Ragnarok]

I burned a bunch of 9mm Steyr this afternoon...and managed to lose one empty case!!

Seems to me like there are a lot of long 9mm/.38 auto-pistol chamberings that would appear to be nearly interchangable at first glance...but maybe not so much due to subtle differences in either rim dimensions..chamber pressure..overall length..etc.

[leftiye]

leftyie: I don't know where you got your European pressure figures, but my CIP (Europe's equivalent to SAMMI) tables show a maximum pressure for the 9mm Luger (Parabelllum) at 34000 psi.

Starline 38 Super Competition Brass which is rimless (in stock at Midway 2 weeks ago) is the best substitute for 9mm Largo as the dimensions are within .005 and there is no rim to contend with..

Loads for the 9mm Largo should be kept below the 26000 psi range. .38 ACP (Not .38 Super)
loading tables are equivalant and can be found in older Lyman and other loading manuals or on the internet.

Where I got my european pressure figure = Submachine gun loads. I did finally get those 9X23 cases, and they fit my chamber (Modelo Super) like they were hand fitted for it. No bulges, all of the .38 auto/super cases were waay undersized and do bulge a lot. I'm not suggesting that these should in any way be loaded extremely hot, but want to note that the 9X23 brass is much heavier, thicker, and has somwhat less capacity than the largo or super cases. As someone else said here, the 9X23 case is a 50,000 psi. case FWIW. I do now also have a Destroyer carbine, No intelligent reason I can see to use rifle primers (tongue in cheek) - for whoever may be thinking that I expand case heads on these things.

[bobthenailer]

I have shot various brass from my 2- 38 supers both with match barrels with no problems loaded in 38 super dies , 38 super / 38 super comp / 38 TJ / 9mm super comp / 9mm largo & 9X23 , i usually only use 38 super brass. but have aquired the other brass over the years.