WC846 equal BLC2?

[Ranch Dog]

For years I've reloaded my dad's Winchester M94 with a max load, 36.0-grains, of BL-C(2). I used this load with the Hornady 170-grain FP and then several years ago switched him to my TLC311-165-RF sized to .309". The carbine shot extremely well and developed 2236 FPS with the 169-grain cast bullet.

I purchased 8# of WC846 and put it to use over the last couple of weeks as my supply of BL-C(2) ran out. I backed off the max charge and worked up. The velocities at 36.0-grains are similar but the trend during the load work increased through 35.5-grains and then dropped at 36.0-grains. Here is what the loads vs. velocity looked like:

34.0 2201
34.5 2237
35.0 2274
35.5 2334
36.0 2236

Accuracy is awful through the 35.5-grain load. This rifle has shot a consistent 1.5" 5-shot group over its life but with the WC846 I am lucky to keep any bullets on the target at the 50-yards. Funny thing is that the accuracy is acceptable at the 36.0-grains, averaged 1.64" so far, which is very close to the results I saw with BL-C(2) as is the velocity but why the velocity drop with this load?

I don't have a strain gage on the barrel and would rather not get into that, but I feel the 36.0-grain load is pushing the pressure limit. A lot of recoil and the smoke at the shot is significant. Of course the 30-30 Win cartridge is way past any limit when if finally starts showing the traditional signs of too much pressure.

I shot the five remaining cartridges of the old load and they kissed us good bye with a beautiful 5 sided cloverleaf.

Why the drop in velocity from 35.5 to 36.0-grains?

[felix]

Michael, the primer is beginning to get snuffed out because the flame/wave travel is being curtailed. Leave a little room for those little, bitty balls to disperse a little more. Changing primers would be a fun experiment with the same exact load. ... felix

Maven ran into the same problem, and then left a little powder space, and re-filled the case with shotgun plastic balls, using minuscule compression because he was using a duplex load. He got his 50 fps back because the plastic was easily compressed further upon ignition. ... felix

[jim4065]

Michael, the primer is beginning to get snuffed out because the flame/wave travel is being curtailed. Leave a little room for those little, bitty balls to disperse a little more. Changing primers would be a fun experiment with the same exact load. ... felix

That's a new concept to me. Do you think that this would spread the burn into a longer time frame - hence, lower pressure and velocity?

[Ranch Dog]

Michael, the primer is beginning to get snuffed out because the flame/wave travel is being curtailed. Leave a little room for those little, bitty balls to disperse a little more. Changing primers would be a fun experiment with the same exact load. ... felix

Maven ran into the same problem, and then left a little powder space, and re-filled the case with shotgun plastic balls, using minuscule compression because he was using a duplex load. He got his 50 fps back because the plastic was easily compressed further upon ignition. ... felix

Oh boy, I suspect that I will just go back to BL-C(2) and use the WC846 as cactus fertilizer. I do have a Marlin 30G that I have a strain gage on and should have looked at the difference with the pressure trace equipment. I wish I would have started with this rather than wasting the time, powder and bullets that I have. The 36.0-grains of WC846 really bugs me, I have a bad feeling that it is beyond 42.0K PSI which doesn't give me the warm-fuzzy about sending my dad out with it. The lighter loads, less than 36.0-grains, are just not acceptable because of the poor accuracy.

May be the quick fix and to get my dad shootable ammo is to just pressure check the 36.0-grain loads in the 30G.

[Ranch Dog]

That's a new concept to me. Do you think that this would spread the burn into a longer time frame - hence, lower pressure and velocity?

If it did that and did that consistently, it would be acceptable because the accuracy is good. I've done some pressure trace work with fillers but learned enough to know they are not stable and consistent. I have not heard of the material that Felix mentioned. I use CCI primers and uniform the primer pocket and flash hole of every case so the ignition is all it can be.

I wish I would have started this sooner as hunting season is upon us!

[felix]

Jim, it is all about ignition of the powder. A primer is made to produce heat and shock to ignite the powder. A by-product of the primer action is the amount of force created by the shock wave. All three attributes must be coordinated with the ENTIRE load to produce consistent velocity from round-to-round. The accuracy of the load is dependent on WHERE on the vibration path the projectile leaves the barrel. The desired placement is exactly between the vibratory nodes when the velocity of the barrel is as close to ZERO as is possible. ... felix

[Ricochet]

The desired placement is exactly between the vibratory nodes when the velocity of the barrel is as close to ZERO as is possible.
The points where the barrel stands still are the nodes.

[felix]

I always figured that the node definition is the cross-over point, where maximum velocity is defined to be. The top or bottom of the node is where the maximum or minimum amplitude is, either being where the zero velocity is and where the acceleration is maximum. Just a matter of definition, right? ... felix

[Ranch Dog]

Pressure trace gear plots this info and my RSI equipment defines it as Optium Barrel Timing. I can help you visualize it with an image.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Reloading/Images/OBT.gif

This is a screen shot of some work I was doing with my Marlin 336SC (35 Rem), my TLC359-190-RF, and H335. The red diamonds on the bottom of the trace display are the OBT markers, the point that the barrel is passing through the zero. The "+" symbols on the traces are the where the bullet is leaving the barrel. The idea is to adjust the load so that the exit points are consistent and consistently leaving the barrel at the markers. I've done that with this load and it is very accurate.

This is also why one load in a given rifle might not work in another even with the same barrel length. It is all timing driven by a number of factors.

Reference my 36.0-grain load of WC846. It is obvious that the "moon and stars" are together but my fear is that it is over pressure. I'm going to switch to my Marlin 30G to look specifically at what PSI that charge is generating as that rifle has a strain gage already on it.

[richbug]

Is the 36.0 gr load compressed? is the 35.5"?

[Ranch Dog]

The 36.0-grain load is at 97% and the 35.5-grains load is at 96% case density. As a comparison, the 36.0-grain load of BL-C(2) was 99%. Here are the comparisons between my lots of BL-C(2) and WC846...

[Ranch Dog]

I won't be able to pressure test the WC846 in the 30G today as it is raining cats and dogs.

[Ranch Dog]

I ran a bunch of WC846 ammo through my Glenfield 30 (30-30 Win) today against my pressure trace equipment. Using loads of 34.0, 35.0, and 36.0 this stuff generates pressure way beyond that of BL-C(2) at the same charges for this cartridge. I'm tied up now but will post the data.

I ordered 10# of BL-C(2) yesterday so this stuff is catus food, I don't trust what I received when I purchased it.

[Ranch Dog]

What the heck, here is what I got. Keep in mind that the 30-30 Win is a 42.0K PSI cartridge. I shoot this data with verification ammo that has a know and lot tested specific pressure so that my equipment can be calibrated.

WC846
34.0 = 45.1 KPSI
35.0 = 46.0 KPSI
36.0 = 48.7 KPSI

36.0-grains of BL-C(2) from this same firearm on a 89° day recorded 42.4 KPSI.

In a nutshell, not good. Shooting the first round of 36.0-grains, I just about decided not to finish the testing but decided... what the heck. I thought this powder was scary in my dad's M94 and it is even more so watching it record with the Glenfield. Like I said, cactus food.

[felix]

Michael, shoot the cactus food at the same loads in your 32 and/or 35 cases (30-30) with their nominal boolit weights. You do have a 35-30, right? ... felix

[Jeffery8mm]

Use WC846 in My Winny Mod 94 with a Lee C309-170F boolit. 25 grains of WC846 with a CCI 250 give me 1950 ish with wonderful accuracy.
I feel that the 35 gr loads are too hot. With my lot it would be. Seems to be a good powder to me.
Jeff

[Ranch Dog]

Use WC846 in My Winny Mod 94 with a Lee C309-170F boolit. 25 grains of WC846 with a CCI 250 give me 1950 ish with wonderful accuracy.
I feel that the 35 gr loads are too hot. With my lot it would be. Seems to be a good powder to me.
Jeff

I bought the powder as I was told it was a substitute for BL-C(2). You are right about the 35-grain loads being hot! My dad's M94 was giving clover leaf accuracy with 36.0 grains of BL-C(2) at 2236 FPS with my TLC311-165-RF. I would rather not slow it down and the case density is pretty low (67%) with your load. This is all just fooling around but I will get my dads rifle back on track as soon as the BL-C(2) arrives.

[Ranch Dog]

Michael, shoot the cactus food at the same loads in your 32 and/or 35 cases (30-30) with their nominal boolit weights. You do have a 35-30, right? ... felix

I have the 32 Special with the TLC323-170-RF and the 375 Win with the TLC379-235-RF bullet. These are the only other 30-30 parent cartridges I have. I do also have the 219 Zipper and my 30-30 AI. I had the AI ready to shoot similar loads but with the cost of primers, I said to myself "why"?

I wish I had a 35-30. I've been thinking of turning my 30-30 AI into one.

[Ranch Dog]

8# of BL-C(2) arrived Thursday from Powder Valley. Did some testing of the powder volume measured density (VMD), specific gravity, and grains/cc were identical to my last jug. Went straight to the 36.0-grain load and my dad shot them Friday. Same velocity and point of impact, he was out hunting with the rifle, bullet, and powder this morning!

Powder Valley did good, I ordered ten 1# cans (a case) to get the same lot as they didn't have any 8# jugs. The jugs came in shortly after I order the cans so they switched my order to the jug saving me quite a bit of money!

Now the 8# jug of WC846. My venture in the surplus powders is over. Anybody interested in picking this up at the ranch pretty cheap? The jug weighs 7# 6 oz. I will take $35 for it. This is from Bartlett Powders in Owensboro. I'm not interested in shipping it as I would need to drive 35 miles one way to drop it off.

[felix]

What flights are you assigned to? LIT, TUL, XNA would be OK. ... felix

[blaser.306]

I would give my eye teeth for a deal like that , There is only one place that even sells surplus powder in Canada that I know of and if you buy "lots" it starts @ $17.00 a pound before haz-mat and shipping charges !!!!!

[Ranch Dog]

I don't think my Company is going to be very pleased with me carrying gunpowder in the cockpit :veryconfu

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Hodgdon thinks WCC-846 is equivalent to their H414. It IS what the US loads 308 with.

Rich

[Ricochet]

Lot to lot variation in the surplus powders is rearing its ugly head.

[Sur5er]

I don't think my Company is going to be very pleased with me carrying gunpowder in the cockpit :veryconfu

I think your conversation with TSA shoud prove to be very interesting too!:veryconfu

[Ranch Dog]

My dad killed a whitetail with the BL-C(2) I loaded up for him on Friday. Just in the kick of time!

[Lloyd Smale]

846 is not blc2 but you found that out yourself. Ive used kegs from 3 differnt lots and another lot of the 846T which is a tracer powder. Most lots have burned close enough to blc2 to saftely use the data but some have been slower and some faster. the tracer powder is definately faster and ive found it a little more finiky to load and im guessing thats probably what you got ahold of.

[JohnH]

Ranch Dog, As you discovered, WC846 is not BL-C2 exactly, yet another lot may have tested closer to it or hotter still. IIRC, Mil spec is for a lot to be within 10% of the desired "speed". 10% is a lot of latitude in cannister grades. If the lot is in spec, the armory develops data and loads a lot using tht powder. A far different senario than the average reloader is up to.

Mil surp powders have always been sold on a "buyer beware" basis. As such the buyer accepts that what is bought may not be as "advertised". I tend to see this in a way similar to Felix, there are likely other chamberings which this powder would do well in for you, and considering your data, it seems quite safe in your 30-30's for reduced velocity loadings, a good wa to blast away an afternoon at the range so to speak... would hate to see you write off mil surp all together, there is some good usage available in it.

The price of mil surp these days has me shooting cannister grades, as I find little difference between the cost of mil surp and cannister once I add in shipping and haz mat costs, as I cannot buy mil surp locally.

There are several mil surp powders I wish I had more of which are no longer availble. Bartlett sold a powder called "107" which was as far as I could tell from chronographing, a twin to Blue Dot. I've used gobs of it in reduced rifle loads and full juice 44 Mag loads. I'm down to about 2 1/2 pounds, I'm gonna miss it when it's gone, it was $54 for 7 pounds a good bargain. And while still available, 7383 is headed to being too pricey for what it is. The last 4895 I bought from Bartlett was dead on to cannister grade, but was priced the same. I fear the days of cheap mil surp are over and that takes me out of the game. The internet as we know now came along 10 years too late. There have been some very good runs of mil surp powders in past.

Alas, I fear I am a dinosaur...

[TCLouis]

for the posted load with WC-846.

"Use WC846 in My Winny Mod 94 with a Lee C309-170F boolit. 25 grains of WC846 with a CCI 250 give me 1950 ish with wonderful accuracy.
I feel that the 35 gr loads are too hot. With my lot it would be. Seems to be a good powder to me."
Jeff


I sent a boolit or two downrange today with this powder and found 24.5 grains to be to the liking of my 14" Contender. Close enough to the point of impact of my coated bullet that I can hunt with them interchangeably out to 75 yards, then only coated will likely work.

The nice meplat on whatever this boolit is I'm shooting did very well at disassembling a 1 gallon milk jug full of water with a load of 24.5 grains of my lot of WC -846. I'll check Lot # this weekend and may even break out the chronograph.

Is this a RD boolit? About 150 grains for weight, 1 lube groove and 3 crimp grooves.

This is yet another reason for a sticky/archive with boolit drawing and maybe follow-up of abbreviated version of results.

[JKH]

if you read the label on the WC846(T) it states that you MAY use BLC-2 load data IF you reduce starting loads by 10% It does not say that you can use the data straight up as it were.

Jeff

[Denver]

Michael

For my MG Marlins, I settled on a load of 27.5 grs of WC 846 with a dacron filler under your RD 311-165 boolit. It gives just over 2000fps from my 17.5 inch barrel 336.

Here's a pic of a boolit I recovered from a whitetail I dropped a few days ago with that load and rifle. Alloy is ACWW with some reclaimed shot added.

:cbpour:

[Ranch Dog]

Very good performance Denver and I'm always glad to hear the report of a animal taken! I gave the WC846 to a forum member to work with.

[Shiloh]

WC846 equal BLC2?

My batch is very close is speed.

Shiloh

[WyrTwister]

8# of BL-C(2) arrived Thursday from Powder Valley. Did some testing of the powder volume measured density (VMD), specific gravity, and grains/cc were identical to my last jug. Went straight to the 36.0-grain load and my dad shot them Friday. Same velocity and point of impact, he was out hunting with the rifle, bullet, and powder this morning!

Powder Valley did good, I ordered ten 1# cans (a case) to get the same lot as they didn't have any 8# jugs. The jugs came in shortly after I order the cans so they switched my order to the jug saving me quite a bit of money!

Now the 8# jug of WC846. My venture in the surplus powders is over. Anybody interested in picking this up at the ranch pretty cheap? The jug weighs 7# 6 oz. I will take $35 for it. This is from Bartlett Powders in Owensboro. I'm not interested in shipping it as I would need to drive 35 miles one way to drop it off.

I have loaded 26.5 grains behind a ~ 160 grain GC cast bullet . Shot pretty good in a M94 AE in .30-30 .

Years ago I tried some in 7.62 NATO w/ 168 grain red tip in a M1A . Scary pressures !

I will some day try it in .223 .

I would take it off your hands if we lived closer . :-(

I have shot a bunch of surplus 4895 , mostly in .30-06 ( Garand food ) and some 7.62 NATO . Wish I could get some more at the old prices . :-(



God bless
Wyr

[leadman]

I have WC846 I bought from Pat's Reloading years ago. Definitely faster than BLC2. I use 24.5 grs in my 6.5TCU with a 129gr. Hornady Jacketed. Also in 223, don't remember the load right now.
I tried it in 30-06 and did not get accurracy or decent velocity.
Pat's label said the original purpose for this powder was 5.56 with a 64gr. FMJ.

Haven't tried it with cast as it works so well in my 6.5TCU I am saving it this cartridge exclusively.

[Marlin Junky]

I'd like to try some 846 in the .35 Remington with 220-225 grain boolits but all I can find now is the tracer stuff and/or pulldown. Is 844 supposed to be a slightly faster version of 846?

MJ

[TCLouis]

WC844 was a powder used to load 55 grain 5.56 ammo.

Unless I am mistaken (very possible I am mistaken) WC846 was a powder to load 7.62X51.

Leadman

Are you hunting with that loading in the 6.5 TCU or just plinking/shooting steel?

[r6487]

http://www.subguns.com/boards/reloading.cgi?read=21248

this guy says win 748 = blc2

[wiljen]

http://www.subguns.com/boards/reloading.cgi?read=21248

this guy says win 748 = blc2

Quickload sure doesnt think so. Different data in almost all parameters. they may behave alike in some cartridges, but I sure wouldnt use the data interchangeably.

[Sur5er]

Quickload sure doesnt think so. Different data in almost all parameters. they may behave alike in some cartridges, but I sure wouldnt use the data interchangeably.

Not to hijack, but.................How do you like the Quickload program?

[Franklin Zeman]

From what I have read, heard, etc H-335, BlC-2, WC846 are just over runs of large batches made for the Military for .223 and .308 type ammo. Each batch is provided to the ammunition maker with a guideline to reaching the desired speed and pressure requirements. When WE use it, prudence would dictate the START LOW AND WATCH FOR PRESSURE SIGNS !!!!!!!
I see differences in burning rate/pressure signs when switching calibers.