Hurcules Lightning, Hi Vel (auction find)

[357maximum]

Powders that I have never used in cans that almost pre-date my existence....maybe they do???????


I have approx 4lbs of hercules lightning...(labelled as such anyway)...I want to burn it up in one of the following 30/30, 7X57, 308 LV, 35 rem with cast if possible.....any help? Whats it compare to?

The lightning I have is a kinda shiny black ..thicker than normal doughnut shape with a very small hole in the middle and is quite hard feeling..almost plastic like......does that sound right to some of you more long in the tooth than I?




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I also have a few lbs of HI-Vel (blue can yellow circle marked $2.10 per can)but I have some lyman data for that...gonna burn that up in 7x57 with 139gr j-words at about 31-35grs if no-one yells foul with my plan. This was sealed so I do not doubt it is what it is. Real thick/heavy stick powder.

I thanks ye ol sages,
Michael

[Rocky Raab]

I have data for Hi-Vel #2 from the Speer #1 Handloader's Manual. IIRC, the original Hi-Vel was replaced with #2 because the high tin content of the original Hi-Vel caused severe fouling problems. Quote that manual:

"Hercules Hi-Vel No. 2 is a dense double base powder containing about 15 1/2% nitroglycerine. It is a good powder for most sporting rifle cartridges, although it should not be used for high velocity loads because it is more erosive than single base powders."

In the data section, they say, "In spite of the enormous popularity of the .30-30 it is not widely reloaded. It is the cartridge of the woodsman and the once-a-year deer hunter and not a cartridge for the handloader and rifle enthusiast." (I think many of us might disagree!)

They do, however later note that data for the .30-30 and the 30 Remington rimless may be freely interchanged. HV-2 data for a 150-gr bullet is shown as 30 grains (2100 fps) to 34 grains (2375 fps). They list no loads for the 7x57 with HV-2, unfortunately. Nor does the Speer #1 manual refer to Lightning powder at all, it having been discontinued long before the manual's 1954 printing.

I'll keep digging for some Lightning data. I do have older books on the shelf, but it will take some effort to find specific data.

[RayinNH]

Michael, I don't know about being longer in the tooth( I'm 54), but I do have an older Lyman/Ideal load manual, #37 from 1950.

Starting with the Hi-Vel, the data is for #2 ( there were also #s 3 and 6, but they were discontinued in the 30's. The load book specifies #2.

In the 7x57 with jacketed bullets 31grs/2160fpps------42grs/2840fps, max.

A little history:
Hercules Lightning. Again we have a powder once sold with two rates of burning and listed as #1 and #2. This too has been discontinued for the handloader, but is still made for the ammunition companies. It performs excellently in medium capacity cartridges with both jacketed and gas check bullets.

The data (kinda spotty) is simply listed as Lightning.

No data for 7x57.

30-30 WCF
308291 21grs./1850E fps
jacketed 170gr. bullet 23.6grs/2000 fps

35 Rem.
jacketed 150gr bullet 28.0grs/2045 fps
jacketed 200gr bullet 26.0grs/1800 fps 30.2grs/2000 fps
358315 29.2grs/2040 fps max.

Hope this helps some...Ray

[Rocky Raab]

Found some more data in the Lyman Manual #39. This is apparently for the original Hi-Vel.

7x57 138-grGC - 30.0 grs/2185 fps. 139 jacketed - 31.0/2160 MAX 42.0/2840

30-30 165 or 169-gr castGC - 29.0/2100

The best info I could find on Lightning (and other early Hercules powders) is at this link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MAoZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Hercules+Lightning+powder&source=bl&ots=oSVyO03qHw&sig=eHOa1J_ab5m4P8ePiEjx78w97Ho&hl=en&ei=1XHkSvGhKpP-sQPJjMSwBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Hercules%20Lightning%20powder&f=false

[woody1]

Lightning in 7 x 57: 385346 @ 138 gr. use 20 gr. Lightning for 2000 fps (est)
338377 @ 150 gr. use 19 gr. Lightning for 2000 fps (est)
HiVel 2 data should be available all over the place. It was common at least into the mid-60's. If you need, PM me. Regards, Woody

[Ricochet]

"Hercules Hi-Vel No. 2 is a dense double base powder containing about 15 1/2% nitroglycerine. It is a good powder for most sporting rifle cartridges, although it should not be used for high velocity loads because it is more erosive than single base powders."
Kinda sad that they named it Hi-Vel and then had to put a disclaimer like that on it!

[BerdanIII]

Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading and older Belding and Mull catalogs will have Lightning and Hi-Vel No. 2 data. Speer #6 has Hi-Vel No. 2 data. If nobody else comes up with data by tomorrow (10-26), I'll post what I find.

.357 Maximum: What's a ".308 LV"?

Rocky: Check the powder section of Lyman #38; I think it says Hi-Vel No. 2. I was looking for some Hi-Vel No. 2 data in #38 and #39 for the .308 WCF and 8mm Mauser for a poster on Gunboards this morning.

Hi-Vel No. 2 Data; mostly J-word, sorry.

Speer #6
.308 Winchester - Western cases - CCI 200 primers

110-gr spire point Speer 3085-110-OS-SP - 44.0 to 48.0 grs - 2993 to 3212 fps
130-gr hollow point Speer 3085-130-6-HP - 43.0 to 47.0 - 2907 to 3114
150-gr spitzer Speer 3085-150-6-SP - 38.0 to 42.0 - 2611 to 2839
165-gr spitzer Speer 3085-165-8-SP - 36.0 to 40.0 - 2494 to 2696
180-gr spitzer Speer 3085-180- 6-SP - 35.0 to 39.0 - 2349 to 2559
200-gr spitzer Speer 3085-200-6-SP - 33.0 to 37.0 - 2179 to 2378

Lyman #39
.308 Winchester

Lyman 311291 - 170-gr gas check - 28.0 - 1800 fps
Lyman 311291 - 170-gr gas check - 37.0 - 2265 - maximum
Lyman 311284 - 210-gr gas check - 27.0 - 1665
Lyman 311284 - 210-gr gas check - 36.0 - 2100 - maximum
Lyman 311299 - 205-gr gas check - 28.0 - 1700
Lyman 311299 - 205-gr gas check - 37.0 - 2100 - maximum

NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook, 5th printing:

.308 Winchester - Winchester cases - Remington 9½ or Federal primers. Winchester primers reduce loads by 1.0 grain.

110-gr Horn. spire point - 0.250" seating depth - 45.0 - 3096 fps - 50340 psi - near max.
150-gr Sierra soft point - 0.300" - 40.0 - 2611 - 41200
150-gr M2 Ball - 0.275" - 33.5 - 2185 - 27340 - 300 meter target
150-gr M2 Ball - 0.275" - 41.5 - 2708 - 44400 - 300 meter target
180-gr Win. Silver Tip - 0.425" - 38.5 - 2475 - 45770
180-gr Sierra flat base - 0.400" - 34.0 - 2195 - 32620 - target load
180-gr Sierra flat base - 0.400" - 40.0 - 2560 - 49360 - do not increase

[357maximum]

WOW you guys are great ...thank you


I will tiptoe in using the data graciously shared here and see what I get.



308 LV = 308 Low Velocity....it will be used in a 1893 re-arsenalled spanish short mauser action that I am currently sporterizing. This toy will be used with Low Velocity cast @ less than 40K. It shot sub 1.5 MOA with BaBore's 308 sil boolit with the issue sights...I cannot wait to give her a go in her new incarnation with an old lyman peep installed.

Thanks again fellas......I knew someone had some older books kicking about.

[Char-Gar]

I never shot any Lightning, but Hi-Vel #2 was still on some shelves in 1959 when I began reloading. I shot several pounds and it had a burning rate similiar to 4895 and 3031. It never gave me the accuracy of either 4895 or 3031 so I wasn't sorry when it totaly passed from the scene.

IIRC, it was replaced by the Hercules Reloader series of powers which were a significant improvement.

Be careful with these old Hercules powders, they can ooze nitro when the start to go bad. If they are a little gummy or have a slight vinager smell, get rid of them..very carefully.

[pitted bore]

I have a copy of Matern's Handloading Ammunition copyrighted 1926. The loads listed for the 7x57 with Lightning are:

175 gr jacketed 2200 fps 31.5 grains 42,000 ft-lbs
139 gr jacketed 2750 fps 35 grains . . . ft-lbs
150 gr cast "GK" 1900 fps 20 grains "low" pressThe first load is indicated as being "The old standard military load".

Sharpe's Complete Guide has eleven loads listed for Lightning with the 7x57.

There's no indication in Matern's book which lot of Lightning were used in his loads.

(Remember, this information comes from the internet. I've tried to avoid typos. Who knows what problems there might have been with Matern's publisher's typesetter.)

--Bob

[Rocky Raab]

To be perfectly honest, I'd be wary of using ANY powder that's as much as a century old, bargain or not. But I'll note that they made special note to reduce all loads by a couple grains if used in a '93 Mauser - that is, if you do actually load the stuff.

[357maximum]

Very Wary is the name of this game.....that is why "the board" was cunsulted in the first place...it was just barely getting out of my comfort zone.

So far I have touched of a few rounds with both powders in the 7X57 with some 140 gr cast loverins. The 20 gr lightning load was very pleasant and is just above the smoky neck range. The 32 HIVEL load was very nice acting also and of lower pressure than standard 7X57. I did not shoot for accuracy...just opened the window and sent them towards the 100yd sand pile...they all hit it...and there is no sighting system installed on this rifle yet.


Thanks for the help fellas.....both powders will make some nice plinkers if nothing else......I had to get the powder as it was part of a lot that had something in it I wanted.

There was also 3 lbs of win 571, 1lb- H4350, 2 lbs SR4756, and 1/2 lb of bullseye................but I KNOW what to do with them.:bigsmyl2: I normally shy away from 2nd hand powder...but when there is a H&G #50 6cav in the box with handles for $30 one must get what he gets. [smilie=w:

[Lumpie]

I am certainly not an expert, but I would treat this stuff, just like finding it laying on the side of the road. My father used this powder 50 plus years ago. I was given a card board drum, of this powder 30 pounds full. He told me never use any powder, when you do not know its orgin. He said its just like playing russian rouet with a 12ga single shot shotgun. Lumpie

[RayinNH]

There was also 3 lbs of win 571, 1lb- H4350, 2 lbs SR4756, and 1/2 lb of bullseye................but I KNOW what to do with them.:bigsmyl2: I normally shy away from 2nd hand powder...but when there is a H&G #50 6cav in the box with handles for $30 one must get what he gets.

Michael, a real gentlemanly thing you have done. Offering someone $30 for a box full of old junk :drinks:...Ray

[357maximum]

Michael, a real gentlemanly thing you have done. Offering someone $30 for a box full of old junk :drinks:...Ray

Actually it was a public gun auction with about 120+ onlookers suffering from severe cases of rectal cranial inversion apparently.

[357maximum]

I am certainly not an expert, but I would treat this stuff, just like finding it laying on the side of the road. My father used this powder 50 plus years ago. I was given a card board drum, of this powder 30 pounds full. He told me never use any powder, when you do not know its orgin. He said its just like playing russian rouet with a 12ga single shot shotgun. Lumpie

Lumpie...I agree with you, but there was alot of stuff and about 1/2 of it was from the same gentleman going by the lables/tags....the fellow who's stuff was being dispersed via auction very obviously had his ducks all in a row by the way it was organized.....I really wish I had more $$ in my pocket at the time. His treasures deserved to be treated better than some of the buyers are going to...I am sure of that. I have been to alot of these auctions, and I will make sure my stuff is handed out to those who deserve it before I take the final trip if God allows time for it. Some of the things I saw friday were nothing short of a da*n crying shame. I never met the fella or know his full name, but I feel I knew him...just by seeing what his heirs were letting the auction co dispense with. I feel for him cause I am sure he is one mad feller with his heirs.

[BerdanIII]

Hercules Lightning Data

From: Complete Guide to Handloading, Sharpe, 1953

Hercules Lightning #1. Introduced 1899. Still Manufactured 1948. Black perforated discs, diameter .075, thickness .03. Originally a Laflin & Rand development, Lightning went to Du Pont when the form absorbed the L. & R. outfit in 1902, and changed hands again in 1914 when assigned by Court order to the newly formed Hercules Powder Company. Lightning has been widely criticized by reloaders because of its erosive qualities, but it is an excellent powder from an accuracy standpoint, and much of the criticism is unfounded, particularly when it is used with non-corrosive primers. This is a large-grain powder. The grains warp more or less in drying, and while they are of the perforated or "tube" variety, the relation of length to diameter makes them appear to be more like washers than tubes. It is an extremely flexible powder designed for the various hunting cartridges such as .30/30, .303 etc., and is somewhat quicker-burning than either W.A. or HiVel, but slower than Sharpshooter. It is one which burns well under 20,000 pounds and up through the line to 50,000 pounds in cartridges which will handle this pressure. It is an excellent mid-range powder and can be used with both plain-base and gas-checks in addition to the standard metal-jacketed types. It is extremely accurate, requires a low weight of charge to develop velocities, and should be weighed rather than measured because of the shape of the grains. It can, of course, be metered out in modern powder measures with reasonable success if no attempt is made to load maximum charges.

Hercules Lightning #2. Introduced in 1903. Discontinued in 1929 (?). Black perforated tubes, diameter .06, thickness .05. This is almost identical with Lightning #1, but the grains are somewhat larger in diameter and considerably thinner. Developed by Du Pont, this powder is now becoming quite rare, as its manufacture was discontinued some time ago. The so-called canisters of "Lightning" on the market today are actually Lightning #1. I have used this powder in the .30/06 with gas check bullets at low velocities and obtained excellent accuracy.

7x57mm Mauser
88-gr lead - 0.201" seating depth - 8.0 grs - 875 fps - 5000 psi
88-gr lead - 0.201" - 16.0 - 1495 - 10600
139-gr LGC - 0.341" - 11.0 - 1100
139-gr LGC - 0.341" - 24.0 - 1900 - 24300
139-gr LGC - 0.341" - 36.0 - 2625 - 53000

.30-30 WCF
120-gr lead - 0.260" - 13.0 - 1350
120-gr lead - 0.260" - 22.0 - 1950 - 17500
150-gr lead - 0.318" - 10.0 - 1180
150-gr lead - 0.318" - 20.0 - 1740 - 20700
165-gr LGC - 0.500 - 22.0 - 2005
169-gr LGC - 0.405" - 12.0 - 1160
169-gr LGC - 0.405" - 18.0 - 1670 - 20500
169-gr LGC - 0.405" - 25.2 - 2165 - 40000

.300 Savage

154-gr. lead - 0.262" - 10.0 - 1060
154-gr. lead - 0.262" - 17.0 - 1620 - 11000
154-gr. lead - 0.262" - 24.0 - 2060 - 20200
169-gr LGC - 0.525" - 12.0 - 1050
169-gr LGC - 0.525" - 24.0 - 1880 - 23200
169-gr LGC - 0.525" - 32.4 - 2480 - 49000
195-gr lead - 0.385" - 11.0 - 1010
195-gr lead - 0.385" - 15.0 - 1290 - 12000
195-gr lead - 0.385" - 19.0 - 1510 - 17000

.30-40 Krag

169-gr Squibb LGC - 0.375" - 15.0 - 1295
169-gr Squibb LGC - 0.375" - 24.0 - 1860 - 22500
169-gr Squibb LGC - 0.375" - 30.0 - 2180
169-gr Squibb LGC - 0.375" - 31.9 - 2240 - 42000
207-gr LGC - 0.611" - 15.0 - 1200
207-gr LGC - 0.611" - 22.0 - 1600 - 24500
207-gr LGC - 0.611" - 29.5 - 2020 - 42000

.35 Remington

200-gr LGC - 0.358" - 18.0 - 1400
200-gr LGC - 0.358" - 24.0 - 1750 - 21000
200-gr LGC - 0.358" - 29.2 - 2040 - 32000

From: Belding & Mull Handbook, 1937

7x57mm Mauser

138-gr B&M 288138 plain base - 11.0 - 1220 fps
140-gr B&M 288140 GC - 24.0 - 2020

.30-30 WCF
115-gr B&M 311115 GC - 13.0 - 1350
150-gr B&M 311150 plain base - 20.0 - 1740
169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 25.2 - 2165

.300 Savage - "for other low power loads, use those listed under .30-06 Springfield and .30-40 Krag"

169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 20.0 - 1605 - Springfield
169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 32.0 - 2225 - Springfield
190-gr B&M 311190 GC - 25.0 - 1750 - Springfield

169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 15.0 - 1400 - Krag
169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 30.0 - 2300 - Krag

.35 Remington

206-gr B&M 359200 plain base - 18.0 - 1400

From: Practical Dope on the Big Bores, Ness, 1952

.30-30 WCF

169-gr B&M 311169 Squibb GC - 20.0 - COL 2.96" - "for 50- to 100-yard work"
165-gr B&M 311165 GC - 20.0 - COL 2.55" - "for full-power purposes…permits magazine employment (Model 94 Winchester) and the sight adjustment for the standard factory load."

.30-40 Krag

190-gr B&M 311190 GC - 23.0 - 1750 to 1950 fps - "effective deer load(s)"
207-gr Ideal 308284 GC - 23.0 - 1750 to 1950 fps - "effective deer load(s)"

There were no Lightning loads for the .308 WCF (surprise, surprise), so I included .300 Savage (case is smaller than the .308 WCF) and .30-40 Krag data.

[357maximum]

I would like all who took time to type what they found..................all info is printed and will be put to good use.

[13Echo]

Hivel #2 includes tin in the powder. Cupronickle bullet jackets caused a lumpy fouling of the barrel that was just about impossible to remove without resorting to filling the tube with ammonia. the French found that a bit of tin in cannon powder reduced copper fouling and then tried it in rifle powder where it was found to reduce cupronickle fouling. The cupronickle jacket disappeared after WW II and the need for tin in gunpowder with it.

Jerry Liles

[PineTreeGreen]

I bought about 10 lbs of Hi Vel#2 back in the late 60's to fuel a .458X2". The last of that was used in a .45-70 Ruger #3 in the 80's

[357maximum]

I am going to burn the lightning up in my 35Rem 50's 336marlin.

28 grains gave me adequate speed and accuracy when I tried 30 of em with the RCBS 35-200 today. Shoots slower/lower than my H335 hunting load but I will use it for offhand practice/fireform loads til it is gone.


The Hi-Vel will likely get used in the 30/30 50's winnie as soon as I get to it.


Thanks again fellas.

[w30wcf]

About 10 years ago I was gifted 5# of Hercules Lightning made in 1937. I have about 2# left. I have used it mostly in a .30-30 mid range load (16 grs. / 180 gr. g.c. cast bullet). It has worked very well in that application.

Dissected W.R.A. CO. .30 W.C.F. cartridges contained 23-24 grs. of Lightning. I have also used that charge weight under 160 gr. g.c. Linotype bullets with complete satisfaction.:smile:

I have found that Lightning has a burning rate similar to 4198.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[Shiloh]

In the data section, they say, "In spite of the enormous popularity of the .30-30 it is not widely reloaded. It is the cartridge of the woodsman and the once-a-year deer hunter and not a cartridge for the handloader and rifle enthusiast." (I think many of us might disagree!)


For sure!!

My first experience in reloading was from a schoolmate and neighbor.

He learned it from his eccentric uncle, who loaded cast in a 30-30 since the mid '30's
Everyone in the family loaded and used 30-30's for putting meat on the table.

How do you suppose the author of your loading book came to that conclusion?

Shiloh