Starter load separator

[peter nap]

I did a lot of shooting today with my H&R ultra slug Gun and the Lyman Sabot slugs.

I was using Ed Hubels load of 90-95 grains of Re17 (Actually, Ed listed up to 110 grains but I can't get that much in the shell. Roll crimper is on the way.
These loads were fold crimped.

I'm getting real poor ignition. I had a couple of bowling balls and two squib loads that I had to drive out of the barrel. I don't think I had complete ignition on any of the shells.

With other powders, Ed used a 15 grain starter load of Blue Dot and a "Thin Plastic spacer" between the starter and main charge.

I'm going to try that and reduce the RE17 to 80 grains to start with. I'm not sure what to make the spacer out of though. My first thought is a meat packaging base.

Any other thoughts?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Peter Nap I hope you are following the load carefully as explained to you by Ed. You need a hot magnum primer to ignite your load and I would think if I were you, would use no spacer and even if I did use a spacer I'll go for thin paper spacer just to separate the starter powder from mixing with main powder charge. Correct me if I am wrong. Long shot, Alliant Steel and SR4756 are known to be good for that slug.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Hello Peter Nap I hope you are following the load carefully as explained to you by Ed. You need a hot magnum primer to ignite your load and I would think if I were you, would use no spacer and even if I did use a spacer I'll go for thin paper spacer just to separate the starter powder from mixing with main powder charge. Correct me if I am wrong. Long shot, Alliant Steel and SR4756 are known to be good for that slug.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

Ed didn't do a lot of splaien. I read his old posts to find the 15 grain starter. But that was not for RE17

This is Ed's Recipe:

Ok- This info is for everyone to remember, no matter what cases.
With RE17 any load load I give for plastic cases of a certain length will
work for any plastic brand for that length. Because the RE17 is such an
easy starting powder, starting much slower to get to peak pressures,
that differences in hulls has no appreciable effect
on peak pressures. You can't do that with shotgun powders.

The Lymans cast out at about 520 gr weight.

For 3" case with RE17 and a 520 gr Lyman in WW12-114 wadcup,
use 90-110gr of RE17. All it will hold is about 110gr.Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Peter Nap watch out Ed is simply saying for a 3inch hull you can use 90 to 110 grains of RE 17 powder but in reality only 90 to 95 grains will fit in a plastic hull of 3 inch. Ed mentioned to use Waa12F114 yellow wad to be used for the Lyman 525 slug. Now this Lyman 525 slug that I cast of WW only weigh 500 grains in my case.

PLEASE DO NOT BY ANY CHANCE PUT 15
grains of Blue Dot as starter powder!!!! I think God is watching over you so Please look up and say THANK YOU!!

Time to start over again: Take your near and dear one's out to dinner and enjoy yourself for you have people who love you!

Start fresh take 3 inch Fed GM hull and use Fed 209A primer now weigh each powder charge of 90 grains only and put it in the hull . Now take WAA12F114 wad and put a 16gauge .125 nitro card in the cup of the wad and put the Lyman slug right above the nitro card. Now see if you have enough room to fold crimp and if yes go ahead and fold crimp at least 10 loads and now its time to play at the range go have fun. Next go ahead load another 10 rounds the same way but with 95 grains of RE 17 powder and see if you can fold crimp or not. If you can fold crimp ok then try shooting them at the range and tell us all about your experiance and we all will be happy at your success!
Hope it helps
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Hello Peter Nap watch out Ed is simply saying for a 3inch hull you can use 90 to 110 grains of RE 17 powder but in reality only 90 to 95 grains will fit in a plastic hull of 3 inch. Ed mentioned to use Waa12F114 yellow wad to be used for the Lyman 525 slug. Now this Lyman 525 slug that I cast of WW only weigh 500 grains in my case.

PLEASE DO NOT BY ANY CHANCE PUT 15
grains of Blue Dot as starter powder!!!! I think God is watching over you so Please look up and say THANK YOU!!

Time to start over again: Take your near and dear one's out to dinner and enjoy yourself for you have people who love you!

Start fresh take 3 inch Fed GM hull and use Fed 209A primer now weigh each powder charge of 90 grains only and put it in the hull . Now take WAA12F114 wad and put a 16gauge .125 nitro card in the cup of the wad and put the Lyman slug right above the nitro card. Now see if you have enough room to fold crimp and if yes go ahead and fold crimp at least 10 loads and now its time to play at the range go have fun. Next go ahead load another 10 rounds the same way but with 95 grains of RE 17 powder and see if you can fold crimp or not. If you can fold crimp ok then try shooting them at the range and tell us all about your experiance and we all will be happy at your success!
Hope it helps
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

Just heard from Ed. He said the RE17 wouldn't work without a firm roll crimp. I tried the WAA12F114 with the Nitro card and couldn't even get 90 grains in without the crimp unfolding.

That's when I went to the WAA12R and they are a perfect fit (Also what Lyman recommends with Blue Dot)
But there's no room for the Nitro Card so I expected to blow the skirt.

He doesn't like RE17 to use with a starter Load

the best slow powders for starting
with Blue Dot are RE25, RE22, HBMG, Retumbo,VV170, etc if you got to use them.



From the reading I've done, HBMG is likely the best and when used with a 15 grain BD starter, behaves more RE25.

I'm going to stick with the straight Re17 though. It seems to be less picky about components. I'll juist stick to loading 45/70's until the crimper get here.

Thanks!

[tommygirlMT]

I have gotten R-17 to work with a fold crimp with a Lyman slug --- BUT I took a WAA wad and I cut the cushion section and the undersize Winchester gas seal designed for a tapered hull completely off then I filled up a 3" case primed with a Fed 209A with as much R-17 as I could fit and then I put in a BPGS 12ga gas seal (the original 12ga. gas seal from BPI not their new one that's an X-seal and is junk) then I put in the Lyman slug inside the shot-cup and fold crimp. No cushioning in the load what so ever. Shot-cup directly on top of gas seal.

Ed Hubel probably wouldn't like that load combination because it doesn't have any cushion section in the load what so ever and is just gas seal and shot cup with slug inside --- but it's the only load I could get to work with a fold crimp.

COPY AT YOUR OWN PERIL !!!

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello TommygirlMT may I suggest just put a 20 gauge nitro card right below the slug as that would transmit the driving forces evenly to the slugs edges. Try it and fold crimp further helps
with ignition as the pressures are higher with a fold crimp for better combustion.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Hello TommygirlMT may I suggest just put a 20 gauge nitro card right below the slug as that would transmit the driving forces evenly to the slugs edges. Try it and fold crimp further helps
with ignition as the pressures are higher with a fold crimp for better combustion.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

Don't you mean Roll Crimp Ajay.
As to your previous post about the loads, remember these aren't going into a Model 1100 or other shotgun.

This is an H&R Handi Rifle, SB2 receiver with a massive, unchoked, rifled barrel. It's capable of handling pressures in excess of 70,000 psi and normal working pressures in the 60,000 psi range. While I could spring the action and on occasion, they do pop open (Distracting but not serious), the chances of a catastrophic failure are remote with these loads.
As to the barrel, you could eaily detonate a small Nuclear Device in it with little bulging.

Tommygirl, Thanks!
I had considered removing the cushion on the wad also and may as this progresses. Powder space is at a premium.
I expect I'll go to a full bore, solid base, slug and do away with the wadcup altogether though.

I'm just going to load everything else to get ready for Deer season today. I shot up all my 45/70, 30/06 and 25/06 yesterday.

The roll crimper should be here on Tuesday and I'll load more 12 ga's for testing, then.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Peter Nap even tho your H & R has a massive receiver and a barrel stay away from heavier loads of 30000-35000 psi and above or you will make news head lines or have to treat your near and dear ones once again to dinner and will once again have to look up and say Thank You. Thats hard work so please stay out of trouble.
You can follow Tommygirl's suggestions and add a nitro card of 20 gauge right below the slug in the wad. You can roll crimp also but will need a tight heavy roll crimp as you will want the powder ignition to start off right before the crimp starts to let go of the payload! Its fun dealing with you for you are full of surprises and thats what makes life very sweet!
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Boy....I went on a CCI-M hunt today. Greentops had no CCI 209's at all. They had pistol and rifle primers, which they have been mostly out of all year, but no 209's.

Bass Pro had no primers at all.

Gander Mountain, whom NO ONE shops at, told me they didn't carry magnum primers until I pointed at 2 cases of the CCI-M's and asked "What in the He!! is that". DUH!

The primer shortage mutates and continues.
Except at Gander Mountain where Stoopid reigns supreme.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Peter Nap
Win 209 primers here at $ 34.95
http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/home.php?cat=966
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[tommygirlMT]

Yes, I know about the 20ga. nitro (or with some wads a 18ga. or 16ga. fits better) trick --- however, in the load I put forth I was trying to absolutely maximize the powder space and reduce any cushioning wadding to an absolute minimum or non-existant. So the 20ga. nitro had to go both to get more powderin the load and to remove and slight cushioning effect it might have.

The loads accuracy didn't suffer much for it either. The R-17 loads are so much a push rather then a smack as far as slug acceleration in the bore that a nitro inside the wad and under the slug doesn't seem to be as neccessary a component of the load as it is with the faster burning powders.