Core swaging and seating

[wonderwolf]

Do you find that if you start with a core that is closer to its final weight before you run it in a squish die that it comes out a little heavier than what the die is set for? I tended to notice this last night when I decided to set up the electric scale (goes fast er than the balance) and weigh each core and run a experiment with lengths and how they come out the first time (not double swaging them).

Also I've notice using the same jacket length (made from rimfire brass) and using the same technique I'm getting lead stick out of varying degrees (only about + or - .003") but if its plus it gives me a nice soft point look esp after I hand tumble them in a old t shirt to clean them up. The weights are +/- 0.1gr but are not consitint with the amount of lead that sticks out. IE one bullet will have a nice SP and weigh 61.0gr and the next will have .003 jacket sticking up and weigh 61.2gr

Am I splitting hairs or co I just need to work on technique more? I made some extra top punch holders but the threads are too coarse yet to use so I gotta wait to add these so I don't have to swap out punches and set up every time.

[MIBULLETS]

Yes, once the lead gets flowing, it moves easier and a tiny bit more makes it out of the bleed holes.

Are your 22 rimfire jackets all from the same brand and lot? If not, this could be the reason you are seeing the differences.

[wonderwolf]

Same brand yes, but I'm getting my brass out of the recycle bin at the small bore range on campus. mixed lots I'm sure. I'll end up focussing on just one brand. probably the aguila but I'm getting more cracks with that brand I think because its a fuzz thicker. Time and effort will tell.

[BT Sniper]

Here is my thoughts and what I have experienced. I'll get slightly different lengths of jacket with different amonts of lead exposed and figured is was do to different degrees of annealed brass. The softer ones compress a bit more then the slightly harder ones leaving a bit of lead exposed.

Just my thoughts and another one of the many challenges to swaging your own bullets. Wait till you try and sell some, then it gets really picky and challenging to make them all look exactly the same and flawless.

Good shooting

BT

[wonderwolf]

Here is my thoughts and what I have experienced. I'll get slightly different lengths of jacket with different amonts of lead exposed and figured is was do to different degrees of annealed brass. The softer ones compress a bit more then the slightly harder ones leaving a bit of lead exposed.

Just my thoughts and another one of the many challenges to swaging your own bullets. Wait till you try and sell some, then it gets really picky and challenging to make them all look exactly the same and flawless.

Good shooting

BT

I think your on to something with that, I'll take a look at the ones i made and see if the jacket scoring is any different and if thats consistent then perhaps you are right. The creases at the tip I've always assumed had to do with jacket hardness as well? I think the aguila brass I'm using is harder to start with anyways the cci's are relatively soft I think. Since I spent most of the day working at the press I took some pics and did a little write up on my blog in my sig line since others in some other forums keep bugging me about the process, Its a cliff note entry so they get the idea of the work involved.

[BT Sniper]

I have only made a couple hundred or so 308 bullets and have experienced the folds in the jacket at the tip. I"ll have to experiment some more but my first thought is that it may have to do with how fast we operate the ram/press in the point forming step?????

[wonderwolf]

wow, guess I'm pretty picky http://www.benchrest.com/bib/about_us.html

"While we attempt to maintain our nominal bullet weights, the availability of jackets does not always accommodate making "exactly" the nominal weight - therefore, a given "lot" of BIB bullets will generally be within +/- 0.2 grains of the nominal weight(ie.; 67.7 Grain 6mm bullets will usually have an average weight of between 67.5 and 67.9 grains). Within a given "lot", the [extreme] weight variation is usually 0.3 grain or less, with the vast majority of a "lot" falling within +/- 0.1 grain"

So long as I keep to those standards I bet I won't be in too much trouble.

[MIBULLETS]

Yes, if you are talking about the cracks that appear after point forming, they are diffinately related to brass hardness. You can slow the ram down and it will help, but if you are trying to make smaller hollow points with a brass case, they need to be soft. I have used some lots of 22 brass that seemed to crack no matter what I did. Remington, CCI, and Eley seem to work best for me.

[bohica2xo]

As BT has pointed out, your issues are related to inconsistient annealing. A toaster oven may only be partially softening the cases...

------

Annealing Copper and Copper Alloys

Much misinformation exists in the firearms world regarding annealing copper & brass. Copper and it's alloys are metals of a face centered cubic structure that work hardens easily. As copper is moved or worked, the crystals are displaced or dislocated in relationship to each other. Annealing it requires raising the temperature high enough to allow the crystals to realign.

The minimum temperature required to properly anneal copper and it's alloys is easily calculated. Face centered cubic metals begin to anneal at just over half the absolute melting point. Sounds simple enough – pure copper melts @ 1356˚ Kelvin, so half of that would be 678˚ K or 405˚ C – about 761˚ F.

That is the minimum temperature for annealing pure copper. If you were to leave copper to soak at that temperature long enough it would become fully annealed. Nobody wants to wait that long. Raising the temperature reduces the time it takes to anneal. In an industrial environment, copper annealing usually takes place between 700˚C (1292˚F) to 900˚C (1652˚F). An average (85Cu 15Zn) Brass has a melting point of slightly less than copper (1213˚K), and a proper annealing range should be 650˚C to 725˚C for a short period of time. Because brass is a zinc alloy, heating times should be short to keep the zinc in the alloy.

As a frame of reference, Aluminum melts @ 659˚C or 1218˚F. If your heat source does not melt aluminum, it is not hot enough to anneal rapidly. If your heat source does not reach 750F, it will not anneal copper at all. Most kitchen appliances are not up to the annealing task, and should not be considered for this type of work. An inexpensive propane torch & a firebrick are a much better choice for annealing cases & jackets.

A word about quenching. Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched after heating to anneal. Quenching can reduce the oxidization, but is not part of the annealing process. Quench, air cool – it makes no difference to the copper or brass.

© 2009 www.bradfordherrick.com

[MIBULLETS]

bohica2xo, when anealing with a torch, what is the way to tell you have the brass or copper hot enough? I have heard "a dim red glow in a dark room", but not sure. I have done that and heated them cherry red and don't see much difference.

[bohica2xo]

bohica2xo, when anealing with a torch, what is the way to tell you have the brass or copper hot enough? I have heard "a dim red glow in a dark room", but not sure. I have done that and heated them cherry red and don't see much difference.

The crux of the problem with heat treatment by "color" - how dark is the room? How "red" is that to you? How long did it take to get that hot?.... This can be dangerous with steels.

The good news is you are working with brass. "Bright red" in normal room light is fine. Once you cross 1200F or so you should be fine - it only takes a few seconds above 1300f to anneal brass. If you park the torch on a case until it is orange & nearly melted it does not get softer - just uglier when it cools.

Try some thin aluminum near the cases you are heating - as close to the same thickness as the cases as possible. When the aluminum melts, the cases are probably close to 1200F - observe the color & go from there.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

A few thoughts about your brass...

I acknowledge that you're sorting them by headstamp, that's good.

Are you actually weighing EACH and EVERY empty case after you de-rim them? So as to eliminate variations, of course.

Here's my point, (sorry, but it's going to be a long one!)

The point is, the cases are being manufactured in a metal working process. The tooling is subject to wear, but the ammo manufacturer keeps the cases (we hope!) within certain tolerances, because of the fair wear and tear on the punches and dies of their machinery.

I'm saying that a new punch and die set is going to make thinner cases, than a punch and die set that's near the end of it's useful life cycle. Older worn punches and dies are very likely to also create both thicker brass and also slightly more work hardening in the brass cases.

These tolerances are most likely within + or - .0005" of an inch O.D. of the loaded .22 RF round and also within SAAMI specs.

Wonderwolf, you acknowledge that you're using mixed/sorted range brass. That sorted range brass is going to be just absolutely chuck full of variations! All the way from -.0005 undersized cases, to +.0005 oversize cases. But as I said, that variation is normal and acceptable to the Ammo Makers!

Don't get me wrong, Sir, I'm NOT criticizing you in any way what so ever! Far from it! In fact I gotta hand it to you, you're not just splitting hairs, you're almost splitting individual hairs both in length and in diameter. (by the way the average human hair ranges from .0015" all the way up .003" of an inch)

You're doing great, but I think to get the sort of bullet noses you're interested in getting, you're very likely going to have to use gilding metal jackets, made by either Sierra or J4, (doesn't Sierra make jackets for J4?) Fired .22 brass, mixed like what you're using is going to be nearly impossible to get to be uniform as you're going to need. ....

UNLESS, (and here's where it's going to get expensive!!!) unless you literally buy ammo, and you're going to want to buy match grade ammo made by Eley, (told you it'd get expensive!) shoot that expen$ive match grade ammo, then collect your brass and see what you get with that process... Don't forget that when you buy all that expensive match grade ammo, that it all has to be from the same lot number!

I know that I'm hogging this thread, and I do apologize for barging myself in like this, but I'd like to leave you with a thought:

Have you, or anyone else ever weighed a few brass shavings from case trimming? The final point is this: nip ONE (1) of those shavings down (with a pair of fingernail clippers) to .1 of a grain, and see how much metal we're talking about. And please don't forget that one tenth (0.1) of a grain, is 1/70,000th of a pound!

Good job wonderwolf, for real sir. For absolutely real! Now you're down into the level of variations that Ammo Makers can safely ignore, but bench-resters try to get beyond!

Enuff of my hogging the thread and my opinions!






Same brand yes, but I'm getting my brass out of the recycle bin at the small bore range on campus. mixed lots I'm sure. I'll end up focussing on just one brand. probably the aguila but I'm getting more cracks with that brand I think because its a fuzz thicker. Time and effort will tell.

[wonderwolf]

I hadn't considered it down to that many decimal places but I see your point. I may have to talk with the small bore coach here at Ohio state and ask him which brand of rim fire the team shoots he finds has the most consistent cases (they measure case head thickness and all sorts of other things for their match ammo). He and I get along real well since he likes to tinker with these odd things as well. I realize perfect jackets and bullets won't be made with range pick up brass at least not yet. But it bothers me that the same core weight ,jacket weight and length give me 2 dif noses.

I'll take some detailed pictures if I can later in the week of what I'm experiencing and seeing. Thanks for the input Jim_Fleming you got me thinking one more decimal point out now lol

[Jim_Fleming]

You're absolutely welcome...

Another point to be included is the fact that the shooter himself introduces far more variables into the equation than 1/70000 of a pound (0.1 grain) of bullet weight can ever produce, It's not like we're machines... [smilie=l:

[MIBULLETS]

One more thing to check is the amount of lube on the jackets. I know Corbin says to dip your fingers in the lube and roll the bullet in your fingers before putting it in the die. Most benchrest bullet makers lube a batch of jackets at once by measuring the amount of lube and the quantity of jackets, the same each time. I have tried this and it does make a difference. The jackets can shrink or grow in length depending on the amount of lube and the amount of pressure used to seat the core and the amount of lube on each bullet as the point is formed.

Check out this link to Benchrest Central. It has some of the benchrest bullet makers talking about how they make their bullets. Pretty interesting reading. Some things are common between them and some things are much different. Goes to show you that you can make a match grade bullet using different methods but still come up with a great bullet.

http://benchrest.com/articles/articles/4/1/Making-Bullets---Q--A-with-those-that-know/Bryan-Armatys.html

Dan