Hot Potato

[Trifocals]

I recently came to know a gentleman who has a dilemma. He has a 20ga. sawed off shotgun that belonged to his great grandfather who made moonshine during prohibition days. The barrel is not legal length and the stock modified to a pistol grip. He is aware that this item is a very hot potato, but wishes to keep it as a nostalgic family "heirloom". If he were to fabricate a chamber sized steel plug and have it welded into the chamber, how would this be viewed by BATF? :groner:

[Storydude]

Demil it to ATF specs. 3 holes drilled in the barrel/chamber should suffice. I'd do them underneath so it's not apparent(EDIT: Hanging on the wall as a display piece anyway...)that it's a demilled firearm.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I would hazard a guess that they would stipulate that the firing pins be imobilised, welded shut, besides drilling the barrels. A phone call from a public phone, not traced back to you, to the BATF would answer the question anonomously.Robert

[StarMetal]

The way things are going with the socialists that are in power now I don't think it will be long that the shotgun will again see use against the "revenuers". :groner:

Joe

[pincherpartner]

Is it a homegrown version, or is it the Ithaca Auto Burglar?

Couldn't you just get rid of the barrel? Depending on the make and model, maybe a longer spare could be found.

If it's a single shot. could some tubing be welded on to make it longer? I seem to recall reading one of Wiley Clapp's articles about a model 12 that had been so modified.

[Trifocals]

The individual that owns this relic doesn't want to fire it or change it's outward appearance. He wants it to look just like his great grandaddy made it or bought it when he was making moonshine. What he does want is to de-mil it so the outward appearance remains unchanged but it will be impossible to ever load and fire it. He doesn't want to get in a bind with the BATF if someone sees it and reports him. If it is de-milled and absolutely inoperable, I should think there would be no problems.

[Avery Arms]

The only "by the book" solution is to turn it in to the nearest ATF office, technically since the expiration of the 1968 amnesty an individual cannot register or otherwise "legalize" an existing untaxed NFA firearm. Once contraband always contraband and who knows what records exist on that shotgun, for all we know it is already registered to a police department.

Theoretically you could act as if it's got a long barrel and seek form 1 registration or demil instructions, then again the thing might be hotter than you realize.

If he is unwilling to deep six it at least give the barrel to someone else for the time being. Be sure he is aware of the 5 years imprisonment and/or a fine of $250,000 if caught with his "hot potato".


PP

[Ernest]

I'm absolutely not an expert on this but It seems to me that this should registrable. That is you friend should be able to go through the proper paper work and get a tax stamp for the gun. In some parts of the country that is very difficult. In other parts it is not very hard. I would do an internet search and find an attorney that has experience in these things and have him work on it. Just my uneducated 2 cents worth.

[.357]

I was watching antiques road show and a guy had a super short winchester carbine that hasn't been registered. The guy took it to the BATF adn they changed it from type III to C&R due to it's age and the fact that it was in original condition.

[HamGunner]

My now deceased Uncle ended up with a single shot 12 gauge that had the end of the barrel blown off years ago from snow plugging the barrel. It had been sawed off to about 17 1/2". My other Uncle was a Post Master and general store owner and had a firearms license. I don't know the year, but he had it registered and legalized. It could very well have been during the amnesty period. But I still think there should be a way to keep a wall hanger, legally, if it was not functional.

[Dutchman]

I should probably just shut up....

You're discussing an illegal firearm on a public forum. As it is this sawed off shotgun is an unregistered NFA firearm.

Instead of a sawed off shotgun swap the word for submachinegun. The demil protocol for a submachinegun is torch cut the receiver into 3 pieces. What makes this sawed off shotgun different than an illegal submachinegun? Nothing. Same as.

Despite the opinions saying "there should be a way to do this...." I don't believe there is as long as the receiver is present. Dummy machineguns use a non-functional faux receiver.

In the 1950s and 60s I recall a fellow who had a Japanese tripod mounted machinegun chained to the flagpole in his front yard. Sat there for years and years. Painted it all white once a year. At some point it just wasn't there anymore. There are lots and lots of illegal unregistered machineguns in the U.S. held by otherwise honest citizens. You cannot simply drill the chambers out. What of the receiver? The receiver is what is illegal, not the barrels (when detached they are legal). The firing pin being welded has nothing to do with "demil" in the eyes of BATF.

Trifocals --don't get involved with this.

Randy Weaver can give you some advise about shotgun barrel lengths. I met him. Heck of a nice guy. I'd break bread with him any day anywhere. BATF murdered his wife and child over a shotgun with a barrel too short. Don't say it can't happen. It has happened.

This old *** shotgun needs to be destroyed and the parts tossed in a deep lake and you walk away and forget about it. In doing this you've done the right thing.

"Hot Potato" -- You can't make a felony sound any less serious by calling it a "hot potato".

This message thread really needs to be deleted by the mods. It does not bode well for a forum with such an upstanding reputation and membership that you are all discussing something that gets good people convicted of federal crimes and tossed into a prison to rot. In the eyes of any jury you are discussing possession of an illegal firearm.

Sorry to be a downer but I take this stuff very seriously.

Dutch

[Lloyd Smale]

i was under the impression that a short barreled shotgun cannot be registered anywhere. A short barreled rifle can in some states. I was also under the impression that you cant take an illegal gun and demill it. It has to be done by the batf. Problem is just bringing it in is admitting you were in possesion and you could be arrested on the spot. Id toss it and find a nice picture of grandpa to remember him by.

[10-x]

Dutch is Correct.
Regardless of any NFA or "Any Other Weapon's" historic value of any sort ,they are Illegal if not registered, period.
The logical question one must ask is .....why would one take the risk of loosing your firearms rights, most likely your home and going to jail over something like this?
Oh.....no one thinks there will be another amnesty any time soon either......cutting torch, deep river or lake......

[waksupi]

Destroy the barrels. Keep everything else, and hope to come across some legal barrels that will fit.

[Storydude]

Ummm Randy Weaver's wife and child were not "Murdered" by the ATF for an SBS. They were "Murdered" because MS. Weaver was a dummy and fired at a .gov agent on his property, serving a warrant. The SBS in question was MANUFACTURED by Mr Weaver for a CUSTOMER of his. Add to that Mr Weaver doing the work of a Gunsmith without an 01 FFL, transferring AOW's without the proper tax forms and generally being a dummy..

I don't condone the actions of Mr Weaver,or the BATFE but holding an FFL myself, I don't think I'd be living too long if I fired at the BATFE agents coming to talk to me.

According to Customs import regs, to be demilled, a barrel needs at least one cut and one hole in the chamber. Receiver needs 2 torch cuts and one saw cut. Or, follow Drill Rifle Demil, Plug the barrel with a rod and weld in place. Weld boltface shut so a round cannot chamber or be loaded, and remove Firing pins.

FWIW, this is not a NFA weapon in question,. It's an AOW. Any Other Weapon. AOW's can ...***CAN*** be manufactured and registered with the proper tax forms and Local LEO approval. NFA weapons must already be in the NFA register to be legally possessed and transferred. You can get approval for an AOW with nothing more than a LEO signature, Tax forms and payment. SBR's need nothing more than a tax form, LEO approval and time waiting. And you CAN manufacture an SBR yourself with proper tax stamps.

[OutHuntn84]

IMHO As long as the barrel, which makes the gun illegal, is permenatley inoperable then it should be perfectly legal.

[Avery Arms]

i was under the impression that a short barreled shotgun cannot be registered anywhere. A short barreled rifle can in some states. I was also under the impression that you cant take an illegal gun and demill it. It has to be done by the batf. Problem is just bringing it in is admitting you were in possesion and you could be arrested on the spot. Id toss it and find a nice picture of grandpa to remember him by.

In most states you can pay the tax, and when the paperwork comes back make a short barreled shotgun, short barreled rifle, AOW, silencer etc. Only SOT dealers can make machineguns for samples and government/export sales.

You are correct in that you can't do anything with an illegal gun even demil it

BATF will not arrest you for turning in your NFA weapon.


Dutch is Correct.
Regardless of any NFA or "Any Other Weapon's" historic value of any sort ,they are Illegal if not registered, period.
The logical question one must ask is .....why would one take the risk of loosing your firearms rights, most likely your home and going to jail over something like this?
Oh.....no one thinks there will be another amnesty any time soon either......cutting torch, deep river or lake......

"Any other weapon" is a type of NFA firearm, this is not an AOW it's a short barreled shotgun because it started life with a buttstock


...According to Customs import regs, to be demilled, a barrel needs at least one cut and one hole in the chamber. Receiver needs 2 torch cuts and one saw cut. Or, follow Drill Rifle Demil, Plug the barrel with a rod and weld in place. Weld boltface shut so a round cannot chamber or be loaded, and remove Firing pins...

FWIW, this is not a NFA weapon in question,. It's an AOW. Any Other Weapon. AOW's can ...***CAN*** be manufactured and registered with the proper tax forms and Local LEO approval. NFA weapons must already be in the NFA register to be legally possessed and transferred. You can get approval for an AOW with nothing more than a LEO signature, Tax forms and payment. SBR's need nothing more than a tax form, LEO approval and time waiting. And you CAN manufacture an SBR yourself with proper tax stamps.

You are really mixed up here storydude, misinformation is worse than none at all.

Import regs have nothing to do with this, this is an illegal NFA firearm in private possession on US soil. While demilling it may make it hard for the ATF to prove it was ever an unregistered NFA firearm you are still breaking the law in doing so.

The 1934 National Firearms Act covers several types of firearms including machineguns, silencers, short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles, any other weapons, destructive devices etc.

AOW is just one type of NFA firearm, machineguns are another type and machineguns that were not in the registry by 1986 cannot be registered for private ownership. All other types of NFA firearms can be registered form 1 for manufacture or form 4 for transfer (state laws aside)

And the firearm in question is not an AOW it is another type of NFA firearm the short barreled shotgun. An AOW is a pen gun, cane gun etc or a shotgun that never, ever had a buttstock. That is a technical issue though either one gets you the same 5 years $250,000 felony.


PP

[Storydude]

Seeing as the only place you'll find rules for demilling a firearm are Import regulations, I posted them as a guideline.

Or, do what SAMCO, SARCO and the others do for making drill rifles. Weld a rod in the bore, weld boltface, and remove Firing pin.

Unless you want to get into the Legal definition of firearm as used by the ATF....Which contridicts other parts of the ATF code...which count a complete firearm as the sum of it's parts.

[Avery Arms]

(M5) What is an unserviceable firearm?

An unserviceable firearm is defined as one which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and which is incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.

An acceptable method of rendering most firearms unserviceable is to fusion weld the chamber closed and fusion weld the barrel solidly to the frame. Certain unusual firearms require other methods to render the firearms unserviceable.

[B]An unserviceable NFA firearm is still subject to the controls of the NFA, but may be transferred tax free as a curio or ornament.

[26 U.S.C. 5845(h) and 5852, 27 CFR 479.11and 479.91]

(M7) May a private citizen who owns an NFA firearm which is not registered have the firearm registered?

[B]No. The NFA permits only manufacturers, makers, and importers to register firearms. Mere possessors may not register firearms. An unregistered NFA firearm is a contraband firearm, and it is unlawful to possess the weapon. The possessor should contact the nearest ATF office to arrange for its disposition.

[26 U.S.C. 5861(d)]

(M8) What can happen to someone who has an NFA firearm which is not registered to him?

Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.

[49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and 5872]

[B](M9) What should a person do if he or she comes into possession of an unregistered NFA firearm?
[B]
Contact the nearest ATF office immediately.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The above is from ATF.GOV FAQ's and if you violate those laws you stand a good chance of facing federal charges. Don't confuse the national firearms act with other related or unrelated laws.


PP

[Storydude]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The above is from ATF.GOV FAQ's and if you violate those laws you stand a good chance of facing federal charges. Don't confuse the national firearms act with other related or unrelated laws.


PP

Hmmm. Funny, what constitutes a Firearm? More to the point, what constitutes a NFA firearm?

922R states that a "firearm" must have a required number of US made parts in it. But Other ATF regs classify a Firearm as the Receiver only. So, for 922r compliance, If I'm missing the required number of parts, and those parts are not present on the "firearm" is it a firearm?

What about my NDS3 receiver? According to the ATF, that IS the firearm, regardless what other parts are attached to it, requiring a 4473 form for transfer

Or what about an AR lower? It's classed as a firearm regardless of what parts(NFA or not) applied to it. Attach a SBR upper and now it's NFA..Remove that and attach a 24" varmint upper. Is it still an NFA weapon? .....I"m sure the OP could pull the barrel off this "nfa weapon" and now is it a NFA weapon? Seeing as NFA records the SN of the "firearm" does removing it's NFA parts make it still an NFA weapon?

I'm not discrediting the info posted, but the point I'm making is, would you trust a forum for your legal advice?

[Avery Arms]

As you pointed out the legal definition of firearm can vary, one example is that in my state a muzzle loader is not a firearm but it becomes one if used in the commission of a crime. The definition of firearm is not important here, the definition of an NFA firearm is and that stays with the receiver.

Once an NFA firearm always an NFA firearm, if your AR has a short upper or drop in auto sear installed without tax it is forever more contraband and illegal to possess. You can't pay tax on a contraband item and make it legal, a police department can file for tax free registration and keep confiscated NFA firearms.

If you make an NFA firearm lawfully with tax paid it is also forever more an NFA firearm. You can remove the shorty barrel from that AR and put a varmint barrel on and still get busted for crossing state lines with the SBR receiver without the required travel paperwork.

I'm not saying you couldn't get away with whatever, the OP asked for the letter of the law and that's it to the best of my knowledge.


I'm not discrediting the info posted, but the point I'm making is, would you trust a forum for your legal advice?

I would not, I would trust written statements from the ATF or a criminal defense attorney experienced in such matters. Good idea or not the OP posted his question here and several have responded with misinformation that needed laid to rest.

Aside from reading the materials ATF sends me every year I read the ATF FAQ's and various parts of title 18 chapter 44 to keep up on gun laws. The NFA forums on ar15.com and Tom Bowers board are among other reasonably good sources for information.

IMO anyone who owns a firearm should read the ATF FAQ's and your own state's firearm laws until you know both by heart.


PP

[Dutchman]

Ummm Randy Weaver's wife and child were not "Murdered" by the ATF for an SBS. They were "Murdered" because MS. Weaver was a dummy and fired at a .gov agent on his property, serving a warrant. The SBS in question was MANUFACTURED by Mr Weaver for a CUSTOMER of his. Add to that Mr Weaver doing the work of a Gunsmith without an 01 FFL, transferring AOW's without the proper tax forms and generally being a dummy..

I don't condone the actions of Mr Weaver,or the BATFE but holding an FFL myself, I don't think I'd be living too long if I fired at the BATFE agents coming to talk to me.



I don't really want to get off on a tangent with this but you are woefully misinformed (uninformed) about Ruby Ridge. The bias you display in your comment is disheartening. You are wrong in what you say here. Please educate yourself for the sake of your own enlightenment.

Dutch

[Spector]

I too believe that what was stated here concerning Ruby Ridge falls woefully short of the actual events that transpired concerning misconduct by law enforcemnt and prosecutors.

I have a question. If I took a legal breakdown shotgun and welded the receiver so it could not be opened, drilled through the bottom of the barrels in the chamber area and then cut the barrels shorter than 18'' would I be commiting a crime? I don't know the answer, but I am curious.

I had a female cousin who invited a biker to live with her. He had a pistol gripped single barrel 12 gauge with the barrel sawed off to about 11 inches. One day while they were both gone her son shot his younger sister in the face with it. She lived, but still bears the scars. The boy was not charged as he maintained it was an accident. Neither my cousin nor the biker were charged with any crimes. I still believe both should have been charged, but in the real world they weren't. Understand though it was at the descretion of prosectors.

Personally I'd just get rid of the shotgun, but I do understand your sentimental attachment to it.........Mike

[Storydude]

Not to hijack this into a Ruby Ridge thread but if Mr Weaver hadn't broken laws, would the ATF come a' knocking?

[HamGunner]

Randy Weaver never fired a shot at any Federal Agent or law enforcement officer. And the ATF never fired a single shot at anyone either.

The ATF approached Weaver one day, asking him to be an informant to get information on one of the radical groups in the area because Weaver was friends with some of the group. Weaver refused, so the sawed off shotgun set-up came about.

Randy Weaver and his wife stopped along the road to help a female ATF agent disguised as a lone woman with car trouble, another male Agent was hiding and waiting to get the drop on the Weavers (unnecessary tactics). They were arrested and served for the sawing off of an informant's shotgun barrel (the guy was told to have Weaver saw it off, it was a set up get Weaver to violate the law) and when Weaver appeared on the court date, they found that the Feds had upped the court date without notifying them and they were a few days late. Randy then did blow off the whole thing and that brought on the U.S. Marshal's involvement.

While hunting with his Son and his dog, along with a family friend Kevin Harris, the dog happened upon three camoflaged U.S. Deputy Marshals that had been watching Randy's place for weeks. One Marshal shot the dog and the Son returned fire on the unknown camoflaged shooter. The same Marshal then shot Randy's Son in the arm and then in the back as he ran away, killing him. Harris returned fire killing that camoflaged Deputy Marshal (who by the way, never did identifiy himself as a law enforcement officer).

That, then brought in the FBI and the stand off and the snipers that killed Randy's wife while holding the baby, and wounding Randy and Harris. Randy never fired a shot at anyone.

Was Randy wrong for failure to appear in court on the changed date and then just blowing it off? Yes. Were the Fed's wrong for the total screwed up way that they handled the whole thing? Yes. Weaver lived in a very remote area, but he did come to town and they could have taken care of things a lot differently. The local Sheriff said that he could have driven up to the base of Randy's mountain home and then walked up the long hill and talked to Randy anytime without incident. The local U.S. Deputy Marshal for the area felt the same way. But the out of town Fed's blew it and escalated a small (made up) weapons charge into a full scale war by killing Weaver's Son.

I don't know the ins and outs of firearms law, but then I do not throw out untruths about something I know nothing about either.

[Storydude]

So, by your account Mr Weaver cut down a set of barrels below legal length of his own free will.

Thanks for proving my point that Mr Weaver willfully broke the law. Unless the informant had a gun to Mr Weaver's head and forced him to work the saw, he knew full well what he was doing.

Was it handled properly by the .gov agents involved? We'll never know because we were not there that day.

In regards to the OP, I'd PEN a letter to the ATF, asking what procedures are needed to turn a working firearm into a "prop gun" or NON FIRING replica according to the laws. Once you get the written response, follow the guidelines and keep paperwork for any future reference.

[HamGunner]

A person leaves their stated experience and knowledge wide open to disbelief when they throw out hear say information. Best to only comment on facts that one knows for certain.

[Storydude]

So Mr weaver DID cut down barrels to under length and became a Criminal.

Criminals usually get punished.

Moreso when they don't show up for court. Try it next speeding ticket.

I'm sorry Mr weaver lost his family. Still does not change the fact that he broke the law the instant he cut through that barrel. Cohersed or not. He's a big boy. He knew the risks.

[waksupi]

So Mr weaver DID cut down barrels to under length and became a Criminal.

.

Wheter or not he did, it still comes back to mishandling. When you take all into consideration, there were people killed, for what would have been dodging a $300 tax. He must not have been guilty of much, as he moved to this area within a few months. If they had federal charges for something, he would still be sitting in a Federal prison.

[Storydude]

I understand and agree 100% about the mishandling. .GOV Should have done things better. But sometimes, somewhere, people get made examples of. If not on the street then in the courtrooms. I hope noone here thinks my opinion of the events in any way condone the actions of the feds or make them believe I wish ill will upon anyone.


all the more reason the alphabet boys eventually will need to be contacted sometime by the OP to figure out the legal, correct, and jail-free way to do what he wants to do...IF he can. I love all you guys too much to see another incident like the discussion above.

:drinks:

[Dutchman]

But sometimes, somewhere, people get made examples of. If not on the street then in the courtrooms.

Elmer Fudd

I took all my commentary out of this reply as it would've done nothing more than make an example of your attitude. You've already done that without my help.

Court Says 'Shoot to Kill' Practice Used by FBI at Ruby Ridge Unlawful
By Henry Weinstein
http://tech.mit.edu/V117/N45/rubyridge.45w.html

The Trial of Randy Weaver
The Tyranny of Government
by Gerry Spence
[URL]http://www.ruby-ridge.com/gspence1.htm
http://www.ruby-ridge.com/gspence2.htm
http://www.ruby-ridge.com/gspence3.htm
http://www.ruby-ridge.com/gspence4.htm

Ruby Ridge: The Justice Report
By James Bovard
Originally printed in the Wall Street Journal, June 30, 1995.
http://www.ruby-ridge.com/bovardarticle.htm

Reading assignment. There will be a test! :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(epistemology)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ballew_raid

that is all

[Storydude]

The siege began when U.S. marshals seeking to apprehend Randy Weaver on a weapons charge came upon Harris, Weaver, his 14-year-old son Sammy and the family dog near the Weaver property. A marshal shot and killed the dog, prompting Sammy to fire at the marshal.
Felony #1. Actually, 3 if you count not knowing 18" is legal limit without paperwork, and not showing up for a federal charge arraignment.

Try firing on a police officer that shoots your dog he perceives as a threat. See how well it ends up for you.
Fire on a LEO, they tend to meet Force with force.

All the BATFE Agents I deal with are professional, courteous, and for the most part decent helpful people. Maybe that's because I don't break laws and try to make and sell illegal weapons?

Ever hear of "the usual suspects"? And not the movie? Know why they are called that? Because even if they didn't do THAT crime...They did do *A* Crime.

The wonderful thing about this country is we all have the freedom of speech and opinion. Again, I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinion of the events in question. Further discussion is pointless in this thread.

[OutHuntn84]

Trifocals,
tell your friend to ditch the gun in a very deep hole or cautiously get in writing how to make it legal. These guys are squabbling over things that not even the BATF can probably give you a straight answer. Half the firearm laws I've read contradict each other and use garbled language. Any time they cant explain there simple answer is "destroy it, its illegal, jail" you get the drift. Also for future reference many many moons ago before I was fully enlightened of the ongoings of our wonderful BATF. I was on a reputable gun auction site and seen were a guy was selling a clip in stock for Glocks. I thought with child like glee how neat that must be so I sent the guy an email asking about some of the details of the stock. Never did get a response but later that week I did get an email from the BATF advising me of the law and threatening me. I sent em an email back saying thanks for the legal update(no sarcasm) and that no purchase was ever made. Later I received a letter and phone call with the same threats as before and I responded much in the same as I did in the email. about a month goes by and I get a morning wake up call from the BATF pounding on my parents door with a warrant to search the premises and explained it was part of an internet sting. I spent the next 5 hours having to explain alot of things that were none of their business, being threatened and even hand cuffed at one time. I was raked over some coals for hoarding munitions (couple thousand rounds of ammo for various guns and a few pounds of powder and a few thou sad various primers) and hoarding firearms (I think at that time the count was around 20 mostly hand me downs from family) Ya know there is no law saying if ya have X firearms or X amounts of ammo it is considered hoarding, but hoarding is illegal and I guess left at their discretion. After all of that ransacking my parents home scaring my mother and everything else nothing was found no charges were filed. All of it because of an internet discussion about a stock that would make a gun an NFA firearm. My family and I were treated like criminals for just talking about what a dang folding stock was made out of. A little over the top dont ya think.

The moral of this story is DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS KINDA **** ON THE INTERNET!!! BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!!! and no he has nothing better to do. I pray none of the good men on this thread will have any repercussions of the comments that were made.

In regards to Ruby Ridge guys please drop it! Those that defend the actions of the marshalls and others involved are probably law enforcement or have friends and family that is. Heck I used to be like that, LEOs did no wrong always justified, crime needs punishment (even though it is not there place to administer it). For their loyalty to what the persieve as standing up for their "brothers in arms" I commend their integrity, but pity their short sightedness of how they would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. Remember Always treat others the way you would want to be treated, no one is without flaw. Well maybe from the above thread Storydude ;)

[Char-Gar]

I agree this is no place to discuss a criminal act nor the proper people to be asking. Looking for loop holes or the grey area is just not smart. Destroy that thing and sentiment be damned. Elevating sentiment over good sense is a form of major foolishness.

Uncle Sam and his agents have no sense of humor and no tolerance and they are watching. Those boys are sitting around their computors just licking their chops at the chance to "make a case" at your expense.

[OutHuntn84]

Uncle Sam and his agents have no sense of humor and no tolerance and they are watching. Those boys are sitting around their computors just licking their chops at the chance to "make a case" at your expense.

Heck they might even frequent web sites where such radicals (vets, right wingers, good ol boys) hang out and discuss their nefarious on goings of improvising munitions.

[KCSO]

I had a similar situation with an LC that had been chopped off too short and we ended up with the gun when the owner found he could NOT register it or DE MIL it. We removed the barrels and the chopped off stock and destroyed them and certified this to the BATF. Then almost 2 years later found the parts to put the gun back to legal.

Do what Waksupi said, do it quick before some ex friend decides to do you in.

[Dutchman]

My family and I were treated like criminals for just talking about what a dang folding stock was made out of.


Thanks for telling this story. Only to you it isn't a story... its a bad memory.


Dutch

No More Free Wacos (a very good read)
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/05/no-more-free-wacos-explication-of.html

The Minutemen
November 3, 1961
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897872,00.html

Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations of the U.S. House of Representatives - 1968
1. Rightwing Extremist Organizations
* The Minutemen
"http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-2c.html"

[TAWILDCATT]

weaver received $1,500,000 compensation for his lose so was he wrong, and do we have a troll here.horihatce escaped charges and went on to do his dirty deeds
in waco.

[Storydude]

Not I. I"m just opinionated :D

[largom]

Would bet any amount of money the Feds. monitor this and all other gun/shooting sites every day.

Larry

[softpoint]

I live in a semi-rural area, and if someone armed was slipping up on my house and shot my dog without identifying themselves I could take a real dim view of that.
The crime that Randy was set up to commit was a non violent crime. Failing to get a tax stamp, or whatever was necessary was as bad as not paying a traffic ticket. I just can't see that justifying a swat team right off the get go.
I suppose the 1.5 millon was at least sort of an apology, but won't bring his family back.

[Trifocals]

Gentlemen, thank you for all of your replies. I wish to clarify several points re: my original post. I AM NOT THE OWNER OF THE SHOTGUN MENTIONED! IT IS NOT IN MY POSSESSION! IT NEVER HAS BEEN NOR WILL IT EVER BE IN MY POSSESSION! The person who told me he is in possession of this shotgun, is a young man I met one day at one of our local shooting ranges. I know him only by his first name and might not be able to recognize him on sight, nor do I have any idea where he resides or how to contact him. He struck up a brief conversation with me and in the course of the conversation asked me if I could tell him if a gun he had inherited was "illegal". He went on to relate about how his great? grandfather made moonshine, the gun had belonged to him and had been passed down in his family. He described the shotgun and I told him I believed any shotgun with a barrel less than 18" was illegal. I never saw the gun. I advised him that if the barrel length was under 18" he should surrender it to a law enforcement agency. He then asked if it were made inoperable , could he keep it as a family heirloom? I replied that I did not have an answer to that question but would attempt to find out and if I ran into him again at the range, I would let him know. That is what prompted my original post on the subject. I have not encountered him since, at the range, but when or if I do my advice to him will remain the same. Get rid of the gun.

[softpoint]

Sorry,got off topic, as to that shotgun, if you see that fella again I believe I'd just tell him to find a deep lake somewhere and chunk it. Even for a heirloom its hardly worth having to deal with atf unless he knows someone that works for them.

[Bret4207]

In regards to Ruby Ridge guys please drop it! Those that defend the actions of the marshalls and others involved are probably law enforcement or have friends and family that is.

I spent 23 years in law enforcement and Ruby Ridge was wrong from day one on. Don't label all of us as the type of moron that would even think of condoning such a thing.

[Trifocals]

Let's get off the subject of Ruby Ridge. Most of us will probably agree that it was completely wrong and was a typical government cluster {edit}, as was Waco with Janet Reno at the helm. These and many more incidents just serve to emphasize how abusive government agencies can be of our constitutional rights. Unfortunately, the time may be very near when we may again have to fight for our freedoms. Let's start the fight at the voting booths. It's definitely time to let "career" congressmen/politicians know they are not properly representing the people of the USA by voting them out of office. We need to force the issue of term limits. If two terms are the limit for our presidents, that should be the maximum for congressmen. Our government needs a complete overhaul. Once a small portion of the fruits and veggies began to turn rotten it's not long before the whole bag is rotten. This is true for every level of government from the village level to the Federal level. Keep your powder dry, your arms clean and oiled, hidden as necessary, and prepare to fight if the need arise. Our biggest enemies are within. Take back our country. As our forefathers, keep faith in God.

[shooterg]

I think the guy mis-spoke to you. I think he only has a completely legal old shotgun action without ANY barrels or stock and someday he may find a stock and barrel to complete his family heirloom..
That's what I think I'd tell him I thought he said !

[Nazgul]

How about just taking it to the BATF, being honest with them about how it was a family item, ask them if it can be legally modified so he can keep it?

They will either give him the guidelines for demil or say no, you can't keep it. A felony is avoided either way.

Don

[TAWILDCATT]

he did not have a customer he had a atf agent that wanted the gun cut to force weaver to work as spy.and weaver did not shot at tha agents it was harris after an agent shot weaver boys dog and the boy.get your story right.

[Avery Arms]

How about just taking it to the BATF, being honest with them about how it was a family item, ask them if it can be legally modified so he can keep it?

They will either give him the guidelines for demil or say no, you can't keep it. A felony is avoided either way.

Don

ATF is not going to feel nostalgic about your family's criminal background and regardless how they feel you will lose the entire shotgun. They are not going to let you keep it any more than DEA would let you keep a kilo of blow because you are applying for a pharmaceutical license.

On the off chance a treasury agent tells you to keep something he is not cutting you slack he is setting you up to become an involuntary informant. The law is very clear you cannot legalize existing contraband firearms-ever.

Put it in the river or turn it in but save the family history for family.


PP

[peter nap]

How about just taking it to the BATF, being honest with them about how it was a family item, ask them if it can be legally modified so he can keep it?

They will either give him the guidelines for demil or say no, you can't keep it. A felony is avoided either way.

Don

Dear God!:???:

[JesterGrin_1]

Ok let me get this straight lol. You have a Shotgun that has been floating around for 75 years or so. And in all this time there has not been one single problem. So what would cause problems for the next 75 years or so? Unless your friend does something dumb then there would be no reason for any LEO's to even look there way.

But again this would not be something to show off to others or a wall hanger to have talks over as it may bring undue responses from others that even though may seem like there is no way they could make problems for you.

It would only be kept put away from looking eye's should the unthinkable happen where you and your kids or wife are in a bad situation and would need it.

But as I am sure others have said I would remove the barrel and the stock and look for a new barrel of the correct length and a good stock to retrofit the Shotgun and make it usable. And discard the old barrel and stock. Then there would never be a worry. That is if it is in usable condition to start with. Otherwise just destroy it and get rid of it. And if you really must take a few pictures of it for show and tell how things were done 75 plus years ago lol.


Now I will say yes I have no great respect now for any type of Law enforcement from either state or federal or city I think that covers it all lol. BUT on the other hand I feel they are not out looking for honest people that may or may not have something that is not legal. But are out looking for criminals with bad intent. Or as our past Pres would say Evil Doers lol. That still kills me lol.



And yes I feel that ALL forums that have to do with shooting are watched and I also feel that shooting forums that delve into survival and reloading and casting maybe watched a bit more than simple reloading for hunting with J bullets. But on the other hand I do not feel they are watching these forums to pick out specific people but the overall feeling of which the forum would bestow upon the feelings of the shooting public.

I know from some of the threads and responses that many hold back a great deal of what they may put into print because of this. But I feel in all things whether written or spoken should be put forth honestly. Or not at all. But that is just my Dime. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

How about just taking it to the BATF, being honest with them about how it was a family item, ask them if it can be legally modified so he can keep it?

They will either give him the guidelines for demil or say no, you can't keep it. A felony is avoided either way.

Don

Don I like what you said but what you said would depend on if you trust them to do the right thing. As I would very much like and wish an honest person could do as you said without any problems but in this day and age I do not feel that is the case anymore and saying that does make me feel bad knowing how bad things have gone in this world for honest people just trying to do the right thing.

[Spector]

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, ‘’that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights’’.

The unalienable rights spoken of in the final draft of our Declaration of Independence could just as well have been inalienable, which means the same thing. Inalienable or unalienable refers to that which cannot be given away or taken away.

Obviously if these unalienable rights are granted by our creator then they can be taken away, legitimately.........by our creator. Yet the language used says they cannot be taken away. So who, other than our Creator, is this language referring to?

U.S. Constitution
Second Amendment - Bearing Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Who is being spoken to in our Constitution? Both Government and ‘’the people’’.

What is this section of our Constitution referred to as our Bill Of Rights?

It is that portion of our Constitution that was deemed necessary by our founders before ratification would be granted for the rest of our Constitution. It was a deal breaker had it not been included.

Who is being spoken to in our Bill Of Rights? Both government and ‘’the people’’. And most importantly the government is being warned to keep hands off in very clear language. It does not say to keep and bear arms within reason, or shall not be infringed unless there is a compelling interest. It says ‘’SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED’’.

Someone please tell me how shortening a shotgun barrel violates the right to keep and bear arms. I don’t think anyone can. However the government’s tyrannical actions clearly demonstrate it is an infringement of that right. Government has broken the law.

I saw Randy Weaver once. Didn't even know who he was. He looked like you or me.

I am a 62 year old grandfather who notices I feel older each passing day. I fear being a good man who stood by and allowed evil to triumph. I see and understand what that evil in our government is capable of, but I do not recognize it's authority over me. I once swore to protect my county from both foreign and domestic enemies.

We, you and I, are leashed to our government exactly as our founders intended. Government means to control us as our founding fathers anticipated it would. But it has grossly underestimated how hard an old man can, and is willing to, yank back on that leash.

Government or ‘’the people’’ will rule. If you accept willingly the chains government tries to place on us then you are neither my citizen brother nor my sister. You are what our founding fathers feared……subjects.

And yes government does watch and they do fear the power of ''the people'', but I also know they will no longer fear the power of ''the people'' if ''the people'' allow themslelves to be disarmed.

Yet worse than losing one's arms is losing the will to use them. For a coward has no us for weapons.

Michael T. Harris

[Nazgul]

Got some interesting responses. I don't particularly trust the government, I also am not overly paranoid about it. Taken as a whole, the BATF is made up of people. Most are decent and will tell you straight, some are not. I have a good relationship with local law enforcement through local charitable activities that help them. Have dealt with them for Class III weapons purchases and just don't see the problem with being straight up with this.

My tin foil hat never did fit very well.

Don