Clays and the 45 ACP

[sheepdog]

I've heard that for target practice Clays can not be beat for accuracy behind the 230 gr LRN.

Now with that said, never having loaded a 45 acp cartridge, should i got spend the money on some Clays or should I just use up my bullseye, red dot, hp-38 etc first? I'm askign people that have used Clays in this way before.

[Ctkelly]

Used it for 200 SWC ACP loads, works great. Good accuracy, very soft recoil, and burns pretty clean. Also used for 38 special target loads, same results.

However.....I would say use up the HP-38 and bullseye first. The biggest thing I noticed was the reduction in recoil and clean burning. Accuracy is about the same you can get with bullseye which is good enough for me.

[257 Shooter]

Use Clays with 230 Gr LRN . Accurate and a lot less dirty that BE.

[KYCaster]

I've used all four of the powders you mentioned in 45 ACP. I could never see any difference in accuracy, but I'm not much of a bullseye shooter.

Clays is by far the cleanest burning of the four. I gave up on Red Dot many years ago because of the ammount of crud it left in the gun and poor metering in Lee disc measures.

I use a lot of HP38 now. It meters well, is relatively cheap, is always available here, burns a little slower than Clays and is a very versatile powder.

Unless you have some compelling desire to change, I'd say use what you have then try the Clays to see if you like it.

Jerry

[GSM]

+1 for Clays being cleaner.
-1 for being able to meter the stuff - very choppy through a Redding.

[Dframe]

I've used clays very successfully, but I see no reason to just assume you'll like it. I would buy a pound and use it for a while before abandoning the use of the other powders you have.
I eventually switched over to Trail Boss which is also quite clean, meters well, and works exceptionally well for me.

[jhalcott]

IF you just want to get rid of that extra $$ I'll send you my address and a self addressed envelope! I try to burn up what 's on hand THEN buy new. I just make sure I have enough to get thru the next loading session. Then I'm retired and have only so much $$ to spread around!

[Dale53]

I won a lb of Clays in a pistol match a long time ago. I finally got around to using in my new Ruger .44Lipsey Special. It works quite well (very accurate and clean). I'm just shooting target loads so recoil is quite mild.

4.1 grs of Clays behind a 250 gr H&G #503 Keith bullet:

693.6 fps average

Extreme spread is 18 fps

Accuracy - under an inch at 25 yards.

Dale53

[yondering]

I haven't found Clays or Bullseye to be particularly accurate in my 45's with 230gr boolits. Universal (Universal Clays, not just Clays) was much more accurate in both my 1911 and my carbine. Both of these are very accurate 45's, so I believe it's a fair assesment.

Unique gives similar accuracy to Universal in my guns, although it is dirtier. Universal isn't quite as versatile as Unique but is better than Clays.

It doesn't hurt to try it. No reason not to go buy some more powder, if you can find it. I like to keep a bunch of different powder types, so I have several to experiment with when I work up a new load.

[Catshooter]

I also haven't noted a large difference between the powders listed.

However, I can say with some authority that you shouldn't use loading data for Universal Clays when loading Clays. If you do, the very first round you fire in a Glock 21 will blow the bottom of the case out, forcing the other twelve rounds out of the bottom of the mag, scattering parts and ammo everywhere and scaring the hell out the buddy that you let shot it.

Don't ask how I know. :)


Cat

[softpoint]

There are so many powders that give good results in the old ACP that it is pretty hard for me to pick a "best" powder in that caliber. I've recently been using some upper end loads using Longshot, and I am having good luck with it, I have some very accurate loads I've used in my custom 1911 using Herco, of all things! and AA#5 can be good..VVn350...WW231...Unique...and on and on. One note about "dirty" vs."clean" powders is that in some cases it is found that the "dirty" powders give extremely good accuracy with lower pressures at a given velocity than some of the "clean" powders. And if you shoot lead boolits (most of us here do!) bullet lube can be the culprit that is dirtying the gun..IMO:drinks:

[yondering]

I've recently been using some upper end loads using Longshot, and I am having good luck with it...

I haven't tried Longshot, but will have to do so. Have you tried Power Pistol? I've found it to work very well for upper end (+P) type loads. 200gr XTP's at 1100 fps from a 1911, lead 200gr HP's a little faster, that sort of thing. The bummer is, I'm running out and can't find any more.

[Dframe]

Softpoint makes a very good (and often over looked) point that boolit lube is frequently the culprit when people complain about how dirty something shoots

[The Virginian]

This can be the reason, BUT when I have used Clays with cast bullets I have very little smoke and the gun is so much cleaner it isn't even funny. I have done this with different bullet kinds of bullet lubes on soft and hard cast bullets and the results are virtually the same. My guns stay cleaner with Clays and cast bullets than they do with Unique or Bullseye shooting jacketed bullets.

[StarMetal]

I agree with softpoint that the lube is the main culprit. More like picking a best lube for the 45 acp.

Joe

[Dale53]

In my personal experience, BOTH lube and powder choice can be significant when talking about "dirty".

I shoot Clays in my .44 Special (target loads) and it DOES burn cleaner. Bullet lube is not my problem (I use Lars White Label Carnauba Red).

However, even tho' Bullseye is dirty (as well as Red Dot) I will use my Bullseye and Red Dot until they are gone. That may be a while.

After I get rid of my "old" powders, I'll take a look at Tite Group for general use.

WC 820 is going to remain my magnum pistol powder until l am planted (I get great results from this and have enough to see me through to the end, and I don't plan to go any time soon:mrgreen:)

Dale53

[DanM]

Clays is great for target level loads with 230s. I also found it to work very well with hot (major)185 SWC loads. However IMHO, it goes overpressure with 230s loaded warm to hot. If you want to duplicate military ball loads with your 230s, you should go for a little slower powder like Titegroup or 231. For target .45acp loads, Clays is hard to beat....

[MtGun44]

Clays exceeds SAAMI pressure levels in .45ACP if you try to make normal factory
velocities. OK for light loads only. BE or TG are much better, IMHO. I now use Titegroup
for .45ACP, essentially identical to BE in my experience, grain for grain I get the same
velocities within normal tolerances. Not suggesting that it would be so for any other
caliber, but for me in .45ACP 4.7 BE and 4.7 of Titegroup work the same.

I can't see why anyone would feel the need to run John Browning's grand old cartridge
past the redline all the time, but I have several friends that do it. Extra wear on the
gun and brass, etc.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

Clays and Clays Universal are made in Australia and sold as AS30 and AS50 respectively. The AS30 is a bit quick for my liking and not that versitile (it is the bee's knees in shotguns apparently). I have used mostly AS50 as I bought a heap of cans of it some years back. All the guys at the club were hot to do a group buy and share a keg (8kg or 20 lbs from memory). The distributor was out of kegs and gave me same quantity in 1/2KG cans (a bit over a pound) for the same price, which was better, but I really fancied having a big keg as a wastepaper bin later :( ) Only one guy honoured his promise to buy his small share and I was stuck with the rest. I think I am down to one half full tin and one full one, it has takem awhile to work throught it. All ADI powders meter well and are clean burning. Winchester 231 is another powder I like.

Use up your old stuff first I reckon.

[sheepdog]

I ended up doing 4 grains of bullseye at 1.190 OAL with 230 grain lead RN (Western Nevada .452 commercial cast) in RP brass with fed primers. Worked fine, low pressure but accuracy was spotty past 20 yards. Would like a tack driver load safe to shoot daily in a series 70.

[fecmech]

Sheepdog--4.5 of BE with a Lyman 230 gr rn lead will hold the 10 ring on a 50 yd bullseye target out of my wad gun. I think Clays got a boost when I believe Brian Enos used 3.5 grs with a 230 lead RN to make major caliber in one of the action venues. I am a die hard BE fan in the .45 auto as I've never found anything "more" accurate. Clays is cleaner and the smoke is less acrid, I noticed this shooting on an indoor range, I use it occasionally.

[Dale53]

I have a series 70 that was totally "built up" with National Match barrel, bushing, trigger, sights, etc. It will do under 2" at 50 yards with the H&G #68 . This is a 200 gr SWC bullet with my alloy. The #68 will feed in most 1911's and is 100% in my guns.

At any rate, 7.5 grs of Unique will drive this bullet nearly 1000 fps in a 5" 1911 pattern .45 ACP. This is a full load and should be chronographed not to exceed 1000 fps for pistol longevety. I have over 100,000 rounds of this load through my 1911 and consider it a first rate full power option.

This same bullet, with the recoil spring adjusted for function will give excellent match accuracy, including at the "long line" (50 yards), and low recoil with 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent (this is the area where Clays will work well - the target load area).

FWIW
Dale53

[sheepdog]

Sheepdog--4.5 of BE with a Lyman 230 gr rn lead will hold the 10 ring on a 50 yd bullseye target out of my wad gun. I think Clays got a boost when I believe Brian Enos used 3.5 grs with a 230 lead RN to make major caliber in one of the action venues. I am a die hard BE fan in the .45 auto as I've never found anything "more" accurate. Clays is cleaner and the smoke is less acrid, I noticed this shooting on an indoor range, I use it occasionally.

Thats odd cause I looked that recipe up again in the Lee manual. The starting and max is the same! 4.0 even though the pressure is listed at a mild 12.5k. So 4.5 is plenty safe right?