30 Carbine paper patch?

[Karen]

Has anyone here wrapped paper on 30 Carbine?
Exactly how do you do it?
Can I use notebook paper?
Thanks.

[45 2.1]

Has anyone here wrapped paper on 30 Carbine? Yes, but it is quite labor intensive.
Exactly how do you do it?
I tried reloading a few years ago and it was great using copper bullets. But when I used lead bullets, the gas piston filled up with lead, so that my Carbine would not work. Your lead was much too soft in all likelyhood.
I didnt know I needed to size the bullets. Yes, to about 0.310" or 0.311" But I did use the copper cup. That is a gas check. I used tire weight lead. Good choice, but when you try it again, drop the boolits into a bucket of water, right after you cut the sprue while they're still very hot. They should sizzle when they hit the water. This will harden the boolits within a couple of days to a greater hardness than if you let them air cool. Dry the boolits off completely and lube/size them. 296 & 4227 powder. lyman pointy bullet 113gr. WW296 is a good choice as well as the Lyman boolit.
So, is it possible to use paper wraps for 30 carbine? Can I use notebook paper?
I was too scared to use lead in my Carbine again. The Lyman boolit mold you have will work fine as long as your boolits are harder. Please try this again. But I'm hoping this will work.
Thanks.

[pdawg_shooter]

Size them down to .301/.3015 and patch with 16# paper. Let dry, lube, and run through a .310 die. Load like jacketed and go shooting!

[pdawg_shooter]

I made my .3015 die by lapping out a Lee .285 die. My paper mikes .003 and you have to use 2 wraps.

[303Guy]

Notepad paper (the one I have) is .003 (0.07mm). Wrapping those short boolits is a little more challenging than a longer one but I have done 224 boolits, so .... 8-) The short ones give less to roll and guide on but only two wraps are required.

In the absence of suitable dies, you might try patching the as cast boolits then sizing them to .308 as an interim experiment. If the core is soft enough, they may 'bump up' sufficiently to work quite well. Worth a try! Remember to lube and dry the patched boolits before sizing. I roll mine on my lube pad but that is not the right way - use Johnsons Paste Wax or something like that.

Getting those patches the right size and getting them to go on right can be quite fun and satisfying.

Good shooting! :drinks:

[303Guy]

I use paper glue to hold the bottom corner of the patch in place. Are you thinking of dry patching? It can be done but on such a short boolit it would very difficult to get the patch on tight enough. Wet rolling is the way to go. Once the patch has dried, a light smeer of lube is applied. A trapezoidal patch is best as the trailing edge or corner gets folded over the boolit base, keeping the patch from unraveling.

Paper expands when wet and conversely, shrinks as it dries. This gives it a good grip on the boolit core.

The wax lubing is to reduce friction of the patched boolit in the sizing die so the patch doesn't pull off the core.

As 45 2.1 suggests, your first cast boolits were too soft, it would be worth hardening the alloy and trying them again.

[9.3X62AL]

One path to hardening casting alloy via metallurgy is to add an alloy like Linotype, monotype, or foundry type to wheelweight metal that are richer in the hardening agent antimony and the flow enhancer tin.

The other element to be concerned about is diameter. Undersized boolits will lead the barrel, even with a gas check attached to the boolit base, regardless how hard the alloy might be. You won't see the leading, because the gas check scrapes most of it out--but it happened, and the rifle's lack of accuracy will bear that out.

I would be inclined to get the rifle throat's dimensions in some way, perhaps via Cerrosafe casting. I ran my last 30 Carbine (a Marlin levergun) with .311" boolits, seated after expanding the cases with a .310" expander from my 32-20 WCF die set. I ran the castings well past 1800 FPS with very good accuracy, and zero leading. Most of my nominal 30 caliber rifles do their best work with boolits sized between .310" and .312", with case mouths/necks expanded about .001"-.002" smaller than the boolit's finished diameter. Undersized case mouths/necks can reduce boolit diameter, too.

[303Guy]

Wetting the paper is by simply putting the cut patch into some flat and shallow pan with water in it. I use a stainless steel tray thing I got from the op shop.

This is what your 130gr patched boolit would look like.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-154F.jpg

It is of course a smooth sided boolit which makes it short for its weight. That is what you will be aiming for so as to conserve powder space.

This is a series of pics showing a patch being applied to a 55gr 224 boolit (normal GC type casting).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-180F.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-181F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-182F.jpg

At this point the tail gets twisted or folded over the base. This sample would get lubed after drying and sized back down to 224.

I have since made a mold that casts the boolit (smooth sided) to the correct patching size, requiring only minor sizing.

These pics show how much wet paper shrinks once dry. The skirts have not been folded or twisted to show the effect. (Actually, I prefer to 'twist crimp' the dried skirt).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-207F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-028F-1.jpg

This is a 'twist crimped' boolit. some folks would make the hole smaller, some just like that. A wet twisted base would be closed.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-333F.jpg

This is a patch being applied using a cigarette roller.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-069F.jpg

A dry folded base.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-289F.jpg

[Caveape]

303 Guy,

Great pics! The cig. roller is a great idea!
I've always been interested in ppr patching. It looks like you were using regular notebook ppr, right?

I also have that same 224 mold in a 2-cav. Gotta try patching for it!

Thanks for the inspiration.

[303Guy]

Thanks, and you're welcome!:D

The cig roller wasn't my idea. I got that from Docone31. It works well on 30cals.

My 224 double cavity is a PITA to use. For some reason, the castings don't drop out easily.

It is regular notepad paper I am using, yes.

I have also tried tracing paper which I think is 100% cotton. Too strong for me I think.

[Buckshot]

..............Karen, unless there are mechanical issues (rough barrel, poor crown, badly eroded leade, etc) your carbine should be able to shoot a naked lube groove boolit to the same velocity and with the same accuracy as suitable jacketed bullets. Since an auto loader kind of slams and bangs the cartridge around, as 45 2.1 suggested you'd be better served with an alloy somewhat harder then simple WW alloy.

You MUST establish what you're working with as regards the groove diameter and go with a slug that is at least 0.001" over the groove diameter. Loaded to it's potential the 30 Carbine round is a 40K cartridge. Given a too small boolit for the groove even lower pressure loads will blow high pressure gas past the boolit as it travels up the barrel and will cut it to ribbons. The carbine was designed to work like any other gas operated auto loader, correctly in a particular pressure range.

Another thing to work with is that you have to realize we cast boolit shooters are invisible to the reloading die makers. Even Lyman! They all assume we're going to be doing like the great unwashed out there, and that is loading jacketed bullets. As a consequence they make their size dies to put a healthy grip on the slug via a gross sizing down of the casemouth or neck of the cartridge case.

The 30 carbine case is a stout one for it's size. I'd suspect like other 30 cal dies it probably has an inside OD of about 0.304" after FL sizing. Even with a casemouth flare, you stick a .309", .310" cast lead boolit down into it and it's going to squeeze that boolit OD down a couple thousandths. No bueno por ca-ca, that. You can back the FL size die off a bit, but you should also use a Lyman "M" die to expand the casemouth to readily accept the slug.

Auto loaders can be a bit tough to start out with. One other thought is that the 30 M1 Carbine was not a target rifle. It was only intended to hit human size targets at fairly short distances. With an as issued carbine a nice round 4" group at 100 yards would be considered about right, and half that at 50. Some will do better, and there are a few little simple things that will improve their accuracy some.

...............BUckshot

[StarMetal]

..............Karen, unless there are mechanical issues (rough barrel, poor crown, badly eroded leade, etc) your carbine should be able to shoot a naked lube groove boolit to the same velocity and with the same accuracy as suitable jacketed bullets. Since an auto loader kind of slams and bangs the cartridge around, as 45 2.1 suggested you'd be better served with an alloy somewhat harder then simple WW alloy.

You MUST establish what you're working with as regards the groove diameter and go with a slug that is at least 0.001" over the groove diameter. Loaded to it's potential the 30 Carbine round is a 40K cartridge. Given a too small boolit for the groove even lower pressure loads will blow high pressure gas past the boolit as it travels up the barrel and will cut it to ribbons. The carbine was designed to work like any other gas operated auto loader, correctly in a particular pressure range.

Another thing to work with is that you have to realize we cast boolit shooters are invisible to the reloading die makers. Even Lyman! They all assume we're going to be doing like the great unwashed out there, and that is loading jacketed bullets. As a consequence they make their size dies to put a healthy grip on the slug via a gross sizing down of the casemouth or neck of the cartridge case.

The 30 carbine case is a stout one for it's size. I'd suspect like other 30 cal dies it probably has an inside OD of about 0.304" after FL sizing. Even with a casemouth flare, you stick a .309", .310" cast lead boolit down into it and it's going to squeeze that boolit OD down a couple thousandths. No bueno por ca-ca, that. You can back the FL size die off a bit, but you should also use a Lyman "M" die to expand the casemouth to readily accept the slug.

Auto loaders can be a bit tough to start out with. One other thought is that the 30 M1 Carbine was not a target rifle. It was only intended to hit human size targets at fairly short distances. With an as issued carbine a nice round 4" group at 100 yards would be considered about right, and half that at 50. Some will do better, and there are a few little simple things that will improve their accuracy some.

...............BUckshot

Good observations Rick...dead on. That has to be one of the stoutest cases out there.

Joe

[Three44s]

Karen,

I have never paper patched anything but you might want to cut your teeth on a different boolit/cartridge combo to get started.

And I am sure that with your carbine you can find easier paths to cast shooting in the meantime.

Beartooth Bullets puts out a book that might help you with gun to bullet fitting issues:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Goto the left side bar and click on book

If you notice most of these folks here are working with rifles that aren't automatic ...... and usually old milsurp bolt guns.

Besides leading up gas ports, there are issues with action cycling and battering of mechanisms to consider ......... and you might consider getting an old bolt gun to work with as a learner gun. This is not to say it can't be done ...... but it's advanced boolit engineering.

Lessons learned there can surely help you with your carbine.

Belated welcome to Boolits ............ VIVA Lady Shooters!!!

Three 44s

[montana_charlie]

Nobody actually said it, so maybe it ain't true. But, I suspect an autoloader is not going to treat a paper patch with the gentleness it would prefer.
CM

[StarMetal]

yes, but I want to try it anyway.

People have told me before how the Carbine will not have a problem with lead bullets. But my piston got welded shut. My Dad used a propane torch to heat up the piston enough so the lead would melt and let it go. After cleaning it, it got stuck again, so it was heated up three times and cleaned before it worked right again. So I don't trust lead bullets in my carbine. I replaced the piston btw.

If your piston is getting leaded up that much they you are, or who cast the bullet...for that matter loaded them....is doing something very wrong. One other area, and I doubt it is it, is that the gas port hole in the barrel many have an edge that's catching the lead bullet as it goes by. You can tell this with a cleaning rod and a tight patch. Feel how it slides by the port hole area. Like I said I doubt that is it. Many here have fired their carbines well over 200 rounds of cast and not have a leading issue in piston, alone the bore.

Might be something as simple as an undersized bullet or very very bad lube. Again I doubt the very bad lube thing.

Joe

[303Guy]

... I suspect an autoloader is not going to treat a paper patch with the gentleness it would prefer.That is a consideration but I am thinking that the majority of the patch will be contained by the case. Then there is the option of tougher paper - 100% cotton tracing paper comes to mind but that might be too tough to come off properly. Although ..... at 2000fps, that boolit is no slouch and if it were soft lead it might just work perfectly. (The softer the lead the more pressure between boolit core and bore - and soft lead would be ideal for hunting).

Just a question on the 30carbine - is it possible to reduce the gas port size? Or restrict the gas flow? (It is possible on the mini-14 by changing the little nipple thing).

[StarMetal]

That is a consideration but I am thinking that the majority of the patch will be contained by the case. Then there is the option of tougher paper - 100% cotton tracing paper comes to mind but that might be too tough to come off properly. Although ..... at 2000fps, that boolit is no slouch and if it were soft lead it might just work perfectly. (The softer the lead the more pressure between boolit core and bore - and soft lead would be ideal for hunting).

Just a question on the 30carbine - is it possible to reduce the gas port size? Or restrict the gas flow? (It is possible on the mini-14 by changing the little nipple thing).

303guy,

I don't think it's readily changeable. The cylinder is actually an enlarged fabrication fixed to the barrel in a manner I'm not sure of. It appears one piece. The cylinder isn't very deep. The piston is a small affair. It would be difficult to modify it.

Joe