Sten Gun Blues

[KCSO]

A couple years ago Sten gun parts kits were cheap and several folks inthe area had me turn and mill aluminum receivers to make up dummy guns. Well the other day a young man came over and showed me HIS machining project. He made a receiver from steel tubing and was so proud of his work and was REALLY happy about how the gun SHOT.

OOPS wrong thing to do if you have failed to get permission from the BATF. Also wrong thing to do if you are showing it to a room full of cops. Of course we all had to test fire it before it went under the torch and an otherwise law abiding young man has leared a lesson without going to the pen for 10 years.

NNoow I have to crank up the reloader and replace the 10 boxes of ammo needede to TEST the Sten. It doesn't take long at 32 rounds every 20 seconds.

[EMC45]

Awesome!!! I would not have torched it though. It would have made it to the property room for further "testing".

[redneckdan]

I have heard of a semi auto rebuild from a STEN kit, I'm guessing this wasn't quite as kosher.

[Mike Venturino]

Glad you guys saved that fellow from a world of problems! When I decided to add some submachine guns to my WW2 collection last year I rather reluctantly bought a Sten Mk II. Now I'm glad I did because despite its crudeness it actually is a pretty good submachine gun.

MLV

[StarMetal]

...but you didn't tell us about his machining work on the receiver...how was it? :kidding:

Joe

[yondering]

Glad you guys saved that fellow from a world of problems! When I decided to add some submachine guns to my WW2 collection last year I rather reluctantly bought a Sten Mk II. Now I'm glad I did because despite its crudeness it actually is a pretty good submachine gun.

MLV

Mike, seems like I remember reading an article you wrote about that. Got any more details/impressions to share with us on the Sten? How's it shoot with cast? Do you have a suppressor on it yet?

[KCSO]

This Sten worked fine with 124 grain cast bullets and 4.2 of Bullseye. Reliability with all ammo was 100%. The workmanship on the receiver was top noch and was actually better than the originals. According to Doc Carlson the Sten was one of the best functioning sub guns he ever had and that is where I fired my first one. I don't really shoot full auto a lot because it gets spendy in a hurry. Right now Federal HP ammo is running 28 bucks for 20 shots and fmj practice ammo is 30 for 50 rounds. 3 mags of sten gun shooting was right at 100 bucks. I reload but cast my 9's from an old 2 cavity Lee mould.

[JeffinNZ]

Lots of Stens in collections in NZ. "Hand held grenades". HAHAHA.

[Ricochet]

Bless his heart!

[madsenshooter]

Actually, this sounds like an interesting example of the "Just Us" system. This guy is saying it's ok for his department to play with such toys, but not Joe Citizen. Sorta stupid, but maybe one day the true intent of the 2nd Amendment as stated by Thomas Jefferson will be upheld. The intent was that We the People should be allowed to keep and bear arms so that a government that had become tyrannical could be overthrown. Allowing servants of said tyrannical govt to have superior weaponry than that of the citizenry sorta defeats that purpose doesn't it? Everytime I have to buy a license for something, or pay something that govt says I have to pay, sure feels like tyranny to me. You're free, as long as you got the money. Best stop here.

[yondering]

Calm down man. KCSO or any of the other people present could have turned the guy over to the ATF and pretty much ruined his life, but they didn't. Sounds like the guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, for showing his illegal sten gun off in the first place, and got to learn his lesson the easy way.

Sounds to me like KCSO and his buddies did an honorable thing that day.

I do agree that these guns should be allowed, but that's a different discussion.

[klcarroll]

.........I do agree that these guns should be allowed, but that's a different discussion.



......And an interesting discussion that would be!!!! ......Since the clear intent of the 2nd Amendment was that the average citizen should be able to walk out of his front door, and be on a par (equipment-wise) with the infantryman of the era!

....And that parity has certainly not been maintained!



Kent

[Mike Venturino]

Yondering: No surpressors yet. The STEN is actually a pleasant surprise. It takes cast just fine. Mostly I've used the Oregon Trail 125 grain RN at .356 inch, but I've also run through mine a few from Lyman mould #356242 at .357 inch. Those were cast of straight linotype. Powder charge for all has been 4.4 grains of HP38.

I've had a few "jams" with the Sten and MP40 (same basic internal design). Mostly caused by empty cases not clearing the ejection port. That could be because my loads were a little on the light side. I don't remember if that has happened with factory loads in either so I guess I should keep a log.

One thing I have noticed with the STEN versus the MP40 is that with its side feeding magazine a soldier could sure keep his head down closer to the ground than with the bottom feed magazine of the MP40.

One book I have said that at the height of production a STEN MkII was costing the British gov't $10.99 each and they were turning out about 20,000 a week.

MLV

[StarMetal]

Yondering: No surpressors yet. The STEN is actually a pleasant surprise. It takes cast just fine. Mostly I've used the Oregon Trail 125 grain RN at .356 inch, but I've also run through mine a few from Lyman mould #356242 at .357 inch. Those were cast of straight linotype. Powder charge for all has been 4.4 grains of HP38.

I've had a few "jams" with the Sten and MP40 (same basic internal design). Mostly caused by empty cases not clearing the ejection port. That could be because my loads were a little on the light side. I don't remember if that has happened with factory loads in either so I guess I should keep a log.

One thing I have noticed with the STEN versus the MP40 is that with its side feeding magazine a soldier could sure keep his head down closer to the ground than with the bottom feed magazine of the MP40.

One book I have said that at the height of production a STEN MkII was costing the British gov't $10.99 each and they were turning out about 20,000 a week.

MLV

The Germans actually started out with a side magazine SMG. I believe it also took the snail drum magazine also (same as in the Luger. Eventually their SMG's evolved into the MP38&40.

Don't the Sten magazines have rollers near the lips or was it the Sterling?

Joe

[twotoescharlie]

sterling

TTC

[bruce drake]

That Submachine gun with the sidefeeding mag was the Bergmann Maschinenpistole 18 I. A very reliable SMG. 50,000 were made for the first world war and more were made illegally in Germany as well as legally in Switzerland (SIG) into 1920's.

Hugo Schmiesser designed the Bergmann but sold the rights to the Bergmann factory. So the Schmiesser and the Bergmann and most likely the Sten is a simplified copy of the Bergmann.

Oh, and the Germans did make a Sten Mk II copy at the Mauser factory in 1945. They called it the Machinenpistole 3008. The difference between the two was the German Sten used the Mp38/40 Schmiesser Mags and was inserted from the bottom.

The information I quoted comes from Hans Dieter Gotz's book "German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945", published in 1990 by Schiffer Publishing Co. of West Chester PA

Bruce

[Old Ironsights]

KCSO - It's guys like you that give me hope that the Fed hasn't completely co-opted our Peace Officcers. (can't say about LEOs though... ;) )

Thank you for not making a Club Fed Political Prisoner out of the kid.

Now... FWIW, given how easy it is to make a Sten-like SMG out of plumbing parts, doncha think that USC 18,922 is pretty stupid in that respect?

OTOH, if you want to be a "FedLaw abiding citizen", the $300 Tax Stamp needed to build a Sten-like gun really isn't too bad when you consider that a Sten costs $$$$ and you would STILL have to buy the tax stamp anyway.

[Uncle R.]

Not any more. It's not a question of buying a tax stamp - they ain't allowing you to build a new full-auto at any price. Oh - unless you're building it for them. Then it's OK.

[StarMetal]

That Submachine gun with the sidefeeding mag was the Bergmann Maschinenpistole 18 I. A very reliable SMG. 50,000 were made for the first world war and more were made illegally in Germany as well as legally in Switzerland (SIG) into 1920's.

Hugo Schmiesser designed the Bergmann but sold the rights to the Bergmann factory. So the Schmiesser and the Bergmann and most likely the Sten is a simplified copy of the Bergmann.

Oh, and the Germans did make a Sten Mk II copy at the Mauser factory in 1945. They called it the Machinenpistole 3008. The difference between the two was the German Sten used the Mp38/40 Schmiesser Mags and was inserted from the bottom.

The information I quoted comes from Hans Dieter Gotz's book "German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945", published in 1990 by Schiffer Publishing Co. of West Chester PA

Bruce

Yep, I'm very aware of all that. The Germans made copies of many guns they captured....like the Russian PPsH for example. They made some in 9mm. I heard they really feared and loved that gun. That they dropped their 9mm SMG's to pick one up.

Joe

[Old Ironsights]

Ah. "banning" the impossibly easy.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/BSP_SchematicSm.jpg

When did this happen? Used to be "not too hard" (if you don't mind the $$$ and rectal exam) to get a Class III build permit for FA or AOW/Supressors. I guess I've been out of the loop for a while.

Glad I've moved out west. Just waiting for WY to do a "Build it here/Keep it here" law like MT. :roll:

[Buckshot]

..................Most issues with the Sten can be traced to ill feeding magazines, otherwise it's simplicity itself. At one of the trucking companies I worked for one of the local drivers had a Sten. A friend of his had a friend working in a machine shop. They made something or other in the shop utilizing scrap aluminum tube from Mag-Lite. This guy ended up with a silencer for the Sten. I'm not a student of the things so I don't know how 'advanced' it was other then it DID work.

At the time I lived in a canyon out in the sticks and could just walk out my back door and shoot. That is until neighbors began infiltrating, but the lots were 10 acre or larger pieces so we weren't stacked up on each other. To shoot stuff bigger then 22's it was simple to drive up the canyon and then off into a side canyon. This guy wanted to come out and shoot so we set a date.

We had a gas :-) With the muffler on and shooting 115gr hi-vel ammo you'd get the crack. Shooting 147 gr subsonic ammo all you could hear was the bolt clacking back and forth. Great fun to pepper the hillside. With the Sten making no noise it was cool hearing the slugs thudding into the dirt. Shooting at an old 55 gallon drum would really make it rattle. I thought it was funny as after burning off 10-15 rounds he turned and looked at me and said, "This is a blast, but it doesn't make me want to take it to a Burger King". A couple years previously some lunatic had gunned down several people at a Burger KIng down around San Diego I think, and he was refering to that.

..............Buckshot

[Ricochet]

I thought it was funny as after burning off 10-15 rounds he turned and looked at me and said, "This is a blast, but it doesn't make me want to take it to a Burger King". A couple years previously some lunatic had gunned down several people at a Burger KIng down around San Diego I think, and he was refering to that.
None of us would. The whole concept of prior restraint, taking away everyone's access to things because they could be misused, is foreign to justice.

[Mike Venturino]

For general information..... the tax stamps are $200 still and I believe the regulation forbidding anymore full autos coming into the system took effect in 1986.

Also as a general thought, it is interesting how movies effect the price of guns in general. Thompsons and MP40s sell for about three times what a STEN or M2 carbine sell for.

For the fellow who commented about the Germans and the PPsh41. I bought one of those too and I can appreciate the Germans' feelings about them. When you pull the trigger that thing sounds like a chain saw running. I have one of those litte PACT MK IV time/chronographs that also has a rounds per minute feature. It clocked 10 rounds from my PPsh41 in .49 seconds or over 1200 rounds per minute. That was with the Romanian military surplus stuff with 86 grain bullet. With that light bullet and the relatively heavy weight of the weapon its easy to keep it on target for bursts of fire.

MLV

[cuzinbruce]

Funny thing about the movies - When they are spraying each other on full auto, there always seems to be a bunch of sparks where the bullets are impacting and great flames from the muzzle.
Now if it is a lead and copper bullet, there aren't going to be any sparks, no matter what you hit. And the flames from the muzzle are just propane or something.
And in the real world, there would be empty shell casings bouncing around.
Typical Hollywood conceit.
Just like when they hold the pistol sideways.

[redneckdan]

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/nyte-sytes.jpg

[BruceB]

"Now if it is a lead and copper bullet, there aren't going to be any sparks, no matter what you hit."

Although it may seem logical, it's not true. The heat generated by impact by copper and lead bullets CAN create sparks on impact, and quite a few of them, at that.

There was a derelict car at an informal shooting spot which was on my way home from work, and I stopped there one night after dark to empty some rifle cases which "I needed for other purposes". It was a .30-06 with Hornady or Sierra jacketed bullets. Firing into the engine compartment from the front, I was astonished by the number and SIZE of some of the sparks created by the softpoints. To a lesser degree, I've seen some sparking from shooting softpoints into gravel as well. Still doesn't equal the bogus "effects" created in the movie studios, of course.

The Sten , as MLV mentioned, is a much better gun than its appearance indicates. With a bit of TLC and smoothing here and there, I've had excellent reliability from MkII Stens. Yes, they run quite well with cast loads, although I found that the harder Small Rifle primers were desirable due to their later ignition because of harder cups. Stens actually fire the primer BEFORE the bolt stops moving forward ("Advanced Primer Ignition"), and all that moving mass comes to a cushioned halt against the building pressure in the chamber. Ignition of Small Rifle primers is not an issue,with a breechblock whose weight is measured in POUNDS.

The same ammunition used for Sterling SMGs in the Canadian forces was also used in the Inglis-built Browning pistols of my service days. No apparent problems ever resulted from this practice.

[BarryinIN]

Just to add to some of the discussion about what you can or can't do, and what licenses, permits, and registrations are needed:

Doing a search for the name James Bardwell will give you a lot more, and better, info than I can, but:

Unless there has been a change in the last couple of years (very possible) a holder of a Class 2 manufacturer's license can build a machinegun or supressor for sales to "approved agencies" or [i[for their own use[/i].
While I doubt the guy in question had a Class 2, it isn't flat out impossible for someone to legally make their own. There are actually several Class 2 holders around here, although they mostly make suppressors and not MGs.

At one time, and maybe still, there was some way in there that you could build one without a Class 2 license and get it registered by a Class 2 holder IF you did it within 24 hours of building it. Even if that is still the case, there is way too much room for interpretation in there for me to want to try (when was it made? what time? what defines completion?). Personally, I think that "loophole" is an easy way to get trapped and wouldn't go near it.

Buying an already made and transferable MG is fairly easy...if you have the money. If you can afford a machinegun today, the extra tax and trouble probably isn't that much of a concern.
You don't need a "Machinegun License" as I often hear people call it. You don't pay a fee every year. You do pay a one-time tax of $200, send it off with a form to your area ATF office with a fingerprint card and wait. The longest I've waited is about two months, but I guess it's running around 30 days now.
That $200 tax was a lot of money in 1934 when you could order a brand new Thompson for less, but hardly slows down anyone in a position to pay thousands for an MG today.

People talk about "all the red tape involved", but I don't see that it's that much trouble.
You fill out a form (about like you do for buying any gun in a gunshop).
You go to the local LE office and get fingerprinted (like you do for most handgun carry permits).
You attach a passport-size photo of yourself to the form (that you get at Walgreens for a few bucks on the way to the Sheriff's office).
And you get your jurisdiction's chief LEO's signature.
It might add up to an extra 20-30 minutes' time and can be done on one trip to town. You already do most of it to buy or carry any gun.

That last part- getting the LEO signature- is the wild card. It can run anywhere from simple to impossible. What they are signing is not an approval of you getting the gun. That is what some think it is. What it says is that they know of no local law preventing you from owning it. Quite a difference. But some refuse to sign. Some probably don't understand that is what it says, and others fully understand and are just being...difficult.
If they don't sign, you don't have much recourse except a lawsuit, and good luck with that. There is one lawsuit that has been going for years on this.

And Mike V-
Get a suppressor or two. I have a couple of SMGs, but they sit in the safe for months while the suppressors get used regularly. I don't really need to keep the noise down due to neighbors, but it is sure nice to pick up the suppressed .22 rifle, slide the back door open part way, and take 10-20 rounds of offhand practice at the swinging targets when it's near zero outside.
And it's hard not to shoot one without grinning. I know SMGs are the same way, but suppressors give you the same grin while being cheaper to buy and to feed.

[Mike Venturino]

Barry: Good post. The only thing I would like to add is that when I bought my six subguns (I call the M2 Carbine that too although technically its not.) all the paperwork, checks, etc. were sent to an ATF office in Atlanta.

Never given the suppressors much thought, although I have used them a couple of times.

[StarMetal]

For general information..... the tax stamps are $200 still and I believe the regulation forbidding anymore full autos coming into the system took effect in 1986.

Also as a general thought, it is interesting how movies effect the price of guns in general. Thompsons and MP40s sell for about three times what a STEN or M2 carbine sell for.

For the fellow who commented about the Germans and the PPsh41. I bought one of those too and I can appreciate the Germans' feelings about them. When you pull the trigger that thing sounds like a chain saw running. I have one of those litte PACT MK IV time/chronographs that also has a rounds per minute feature. It clocked 10 rounds from my PPsh41 in .49 seconds or over 1200 rounds per minute. That was with the Romanian military surplus stuff with 86 grain bullet. With that light bullet and the relatively heavy weight of the weapon its easy to keep it on target for bursts of fire.

MLV

Yeah that was me Mike. I had read that the Germans were both terrified and impressed with it when they first encountered the Russians using it. The article stated the muzzle blast alone was terrifying. I have to agree with that because the blast of the 7.62x25 Tokarev is loud and as you noted the cycling rate of the weapon is very high. I guess that 79 round magazine made the Germans more appreciate it over the lesser capacity sticks on their MP40's. An interesting thing I read on the PPsh 41 was that the inventor was asked by Stalin to produce a good SMG and it had to be produced cheap. Well the article said that they could get two or three barrels out of a Mosin Nagant's barrel to make a PPsH 41 barrel. If you think about that for a second all the Russian small arms of WWII had the same barrel bore specifications....from the Tokarev pistol, up through the Mosin Nagant and the PPsH 41. The Russians were plenty smart in my book.

Joe

[thx997303]

Barry, it's not about how difficult it is.

It's about having to ask permission.

[Mike Venturino]

Joe: They were awfully good at mass production, if not finesse. I can't remember how many of their T34 tanks were made but it was something like 40 or 50K. The Germans only got 1300 of their big Tiger's out.

Also they made things so simple it is amazing, at least the PPsh41 is. You push a button at the back of the receiver and it breaks in half. Then the bolt can be lifted out and the hole thing cleaned and reassembled in seconds.

That 71 round drum magazine is a different matter. I can see where going into a fight with a bunch of them ready would be good, but I can't see how anyone loaded one of the things in the dark with cold fingers. The drums look neat and I have six but for my shooting most times I use the 35 round stick mags. Then, of course, I'm not going into a fight either.

Mike

[StarMetal]

Joe: They were awfully good at mass production, if not finesse. I can't remember how many of their T34 tanks were made but it was something like 40 or 50K. The Germans only got 1300 of their big Tiger's out.

Also they made things so simple it is amazing, at least the PPsh41 is. You push a button at the back of the receiver and it breaks in half. Then the bolt can be lifted out and the hole thing cleaned and reassembled in seconds.

That 71 round drum magazine is a different matter. I can see where going into a fight with a bunch of them ready would be good, but I can't see how anyone loaded one of the things in the dark with cold fingers. The drums look neat and I have six but for my shooting most times I use the 35 round stick mags. Then, of course, I'm not going into a fight either.

Mike

Mike,

That magazine thing reminds me of the Thompson drums. My God, like the Tommy isn't heavy enough and to add a 50 or 100 round drum. I reckon the Tommy drum may be easier to load, but to have it apart in the field during a battle is kind of nerve racking.

By the way when I shoot either of my 7.62x25 Tokarev and 30 Luger pistols I wear ear plugs and muffs both. Both those two are loud!!

One extra note. MGI Company has made an AR 15 in 7.62x25 Tokarev and it's gas operated...not blow back as are most pistol calibers in the AR platform.

Joe

[BarryinIN]

Barry, it's not about how difficult it is.

It's about having to ask permission.

Yeah, you're right. But then again, with the NICS check and the 4473 form getting longer all the time, we aren't that far from asking permission to buy anything anymore. :)

I'm just always running into someone who tells me they might would like to buy a machinegun or suppressor but say it's "too much hassle". OK, but compared to what?
For a long time, those who said owning an MG might not be worth the extra trouble had a good point. But with the added regs on making any "regular" gun purchase, the requirements to buy an MG and those to buy a .22 Contender don't seem so far apart anymore.
None of it is right in my opinion, but the nusiance gap has closed to the point where it doesn't make as much difference as it one did.

[Ricochet]

Well the article said that they could get two or three barrels out of a Mosin Nagant's barrel to make a PPsH 41 barrel. If you think about that for a second all the Russian small arms of WWII had the same barrel bore specifications....from the Tokarev pistol, up through the Mosin Nagant and the PPsH 41. The Russians were plenty smart in my book.
And the Nagant revolver. One rifling twist, too.

[Mike Venturino]

Barry: I must agree with you. It isn't about what should and should not be. Its about what is and what "ain't."

I avoided buying an smg because I thought it would be a "hassle." After the first I couldn't wait to buy more... and more.... and more.... until the money and the guns I was willing to sell to raise more money all ran out.

MLV

[JIMinPHX]

You don't need a "Machinegun License" as I often hear people call it. You don't pay a fee every year.


Back when I lived in Massachusetts you did. It used to be a green card that otherwise looked like a white Mass LTC pistol permit. I have no idea what they do up there these days though. I've been told that they got a lot worse up there after I left.

A girl that I know rented a Sten over at a range on the east side of town when she came to visit here a few years ago. It looked a little rough, but it chewed through 4 magazines without any trouble. That's the only experience that I have with a Sten.

[Hardcast416taylor]

If what everybody above says is true. Why do I still see ads for parts kits for sten, sterling, ppsh 41 and even our thompson for sale in various parts companys ads? Worse yet is you can purchase plans to make a reciever template out of a piece of exhaust tailpipe. I have no idea if I can buy a sub here in bankrupt Mich. or even build one with permission (?) from Gov. Jenny the Canuck. I had my fill of auto fire and have no real desire to have further experience.:???:Robert

[BarryinIN]

Back when I lived in Massachusetts you did. It used to be a green card that otherwise looked like a white Mass LTC pistol permit.

Thank you, you are correct. I should have said something along the lines of "under federal law" somewhere in there. That was a mistake on my part, and I'm sorry if I misled anyone there.

[StarMetal]

And the Nagant revolver. One rifling twist, too.


Yes John, I forgot that one. They had it all figured out.

Joe

[KCSO]

Joe
In case you missed it????
"The workmanship on the receiver was top noch and was actually better than the originals."

[BarryinIN]

Barry: I must agree with you. It isn't about what should and should not be. Its about what is and what "ain't."

I avoided buying an smg because I thought it would be a "hassle." After the first I couldn't wait to buy more... and more.... and more.... until the money and the guns I was willing to sell to raise more money all ran out.

MLV

I was the same way. Even though people told me how it was, I was convinced there was too much to it.
But after the first one...

[StarMetal]

Joe
In case you missed it????
"The workmanship on the receiver was top noch and was actually better than the originals."

Thanks Jim...and I did miss it.

Joe

[Ithaca1911]

If what everybody above says is true. Why do I still see ads for parts kits for sten, sterling, ppsh 41 and even our thompson for sale in various parts companys ads? Worse yet is you can purchase plans to make a reciever template out of a piece of exhaust tailpipe. I have no idea if I can buy a sub here in bankrupt Mich. or even build one with permission (?) from Gov. Jenny the Canuck. I had my fill of auto fire and have no real desire to have further experience.:???:Robert




the parts can be replaced, either in a semi-auto version, or on the ultra expensive automatic. the part of the gun that's regulated like that is the "receiver", which, depending on the type of firearm, could be the whole receiver, or just the trigger group, or even just the sear.

here in MI, state law says that you must have a license to own a full-auto firearm, a license to own a suppressor, and "short" rifles and shotguns are banned period.

Michigan does not issue a license for either full-auto firearms or suppressors. so, for about 70 years, they have been illegal in MI.

our AG recently put out an opinion, seems that the federal check + tax stamp = license for full auto. we've got full auto back, BUT, not suppressors.

and, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but. (pertaining to federal law)

full auto manufactured before '86 legal to own with paid tax stamp

full auto manufactured after '86 illegal unless you're a police dept, military, or class 2 manufacturer (corporations in general???)

that's why they're so doggone expensive, no new supply in 20 years. when're the sheeple gonna wake up and back us in the polls?

[PAT303]

Barry: I must agree with you. It isn't about what should and should not be. Its about what is and what "ain't."

I avoided buying an smg because I thought it would be a "hassle." After the first I couldn't wait to buy more... and more.... and more.... until the money and the guns I was willing to sell to raise more money all ran out.

MLV

So we can look forward to an SMG article soon?,with cast of course. Pat

[BarryinIN]

and, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but. (pertaining to federal law)

full auto manufactured before '86 legal to own with paid tax stamp

full auto manufactured after '86 illegal unless you're a police dept, military, or class 2 manufacturer (corporations in general???)

that's why they're so doggone expensive, no new supply in 20 years. when're the sheeple gonna wake up and back us in the polls?


That's basically it.
Those made before May 86 also have to be on the registry as "transferable". Not all are.
There are Dealer Samples that one can own if they are a Class 3 dealer. They can own Pre-86 and Post-86 Dealer Samples. The Pre-86s can only be sold/transferred to another dealer. The Post-86s I'm not so sure about- they may be "you buy it, you keep it" and if you ever give up the license you sacrifice the gun...but I'm not sure.
Due to how "sellable" each are, Transferables are most expensive, Post-86 Dealer Samples the cheapest by far, and Pre-86 samples in the middle.

There are also Curio & Relic MGs. A few states allow ownership of MGs only if they are on the C&R list. It's mostly older guns, but there are some newer guns like the S&W 76 from the 1960s-70s on there. This can affect value some too. Reisings and MACs used to sell for about the same money. Reisings have gone up faster, partially from being a C&R eligible gun and therefore being available to a larger market.

So yes, Transferable MGs are expensive due to the finite supply. Actually, thanks to things like damage through use and estate cases where the heirs don't want to mess with keeping them, the number in the system actually decreases each year.

BTW, While I'm yapping about this stuff, here are a couple of things I always found interesting:

There are some states where individuals can't own MGs or any Class 3, but a dealer can. Often those states have a proportionally higher amount of dealers. Imagine that.
I found this out when I started looking into MGs in the late 80s while living in IL and I couldn't own them there. The word at the time was that IL had more dealers than any other state.

Also,
When the number was frozen in May 1986, there was roughly a two to three-week window from the law's passage until the date it went into effect. Manufacturers were scrambling to get as many receivers made as possible in that time. People were showing up at Class 2 manufacturers to have partially completed frames finished and registered.
I have read and heard that more MGs were registered during that period than in the previous 52 years of the registry's existence.
I don't know if that is true, but I can believe it. One Class 2 manufacturer tells that he ran out of room for receivers and guns, and had them lined up outside on the ground along the wall of his shop for the ATF agent that came to approve them. There were guns (MACs and Vector UZIs) being sold as new as recently as 2000 that were made on receivers built and registered in 1986. There are probably still some receiver tubes and MAC frames out there yet. You can stamp out a lot of MAC and UZI frames or Sten/MP40/Gustav tubes in a couple of weeks if you had to.

[StarMetal]

At one time I was hot to get a mg. My best friend said to buy an auto sear for an AR15. He explained that say I bought a Tommy gun and wore it out. It would be very expensive to repair and if I permanently ruined the receiver I was doomed. Where as with an auto sear you can put it in any AR 15 because the sear is registered not the AR. He said you can pick up parts cheap and for that fact a used AR isn't that much. Made sense to me.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Except for me, Joe. My smg purchases were to flesh out a WW2 (and Korean War) collection. I really don't have any interest in buying the "modern" stuff although I do find some of it interesting.

Anyway, good morning to all.
MLV

[pb man]

Mike, as regards the quanities of items the Soviets made in WWII: As Stalin is reputed to have said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

My father was a tool and die maker/machinist before an during WWII. He said that prior to the war, when orders came in from the Soviets they specified higher tolerances than the Germans did when they ordered. I always found that an interesting comment.

[Mike Venturino]

pbman: That is interesting. To add to it I have one of the Soviet PU scopes. (I think that's right but it could be PE. I can't keep things straight anymore.) Anyway it is dated 1944 and is of excellent quality both in the optics and in the precision of its adjustments.

And despite the MN 91/30s awful trigger its one of my best shooting WW2 sniper rifles, if not the best.

MLV

[Mike Venturino]

Here's a shot of my STEN Mk II, made about '44 at Fazakerly (spelling?) as best I can determine. Shoots good and with cast too.

MLV

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/7-22-08035LargeWebview.jpg

[BarryinIN]

Mike V- Hard to imagine saying this about a Sten, but: NICE looking Sten!
I'm guessing it's a real-deal British gun, and not a "tube gun". That makes it extra nice.
It was made in the same factory as my #4 Lee-Enfield, just a year later. I can spell Fazakerly; I just have no idea how to pronounce it!


My father was a tool and die maker/machinist before an during WWII. He said that prior to the war, when orders came in from the Soviets they specified higher tolerances than the Germans did when they ordered. I always found that an interesting comment.
I don't know if it's true or not (I wasn't there) but I've read in a few places that the Russian inspectors drove the Winchester people up the wall when they built the 1895 lever actions in 7.62x54R for them in WWI. Supposedly they were so picky that the Winchester management and workers couldn't wait to get that job done. I imagine the size of the Russian contract is the only thing that prevented some "out back of the factory meetings" with big heavy tools in hand.

I always wondered if those Russian inspectors were that critical because they truly were demanding people, or just trying to prolong their stay here, or jerks in general. From what you say there, it was the first.

[Mike Venturino]

Barry: Yes. The STEN is the real deal. So is the MP40 I bought.

[Mike Venturino]

I'm bored to death tonight so I have been practicing at downloading photos so here's one of my PPsh41.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/9-14-09007LargeWebview.jpg

[Hardcast416taylor]

BarryinIN, The Russian inspectors at Rem. during the production of the Mosins during WW 1were really brutal in checking the effectiveness of the safety, according to a book on the history of Remington. They had an inspector that dressed like a cossack everyday on the job. He would select a mosin off the finish racks, load it with live ammo and put the safety on. He then would slam the butt onto the concrete factory floor as hard as he could trying to make the safety fail. It got so bad, broken stocks, that he got the nickname of "Ivan the Terrible". The workmen finally had enough of this nonsense and set out to teach him a lesson. They made an entire rack of rifles with barely holding sears. You can guess the rest of the story as "Ivan" nearly blew his cossack fur hat off! He never did the slam tests after that.Robert

[Buckshot]

.............Quite a change for you Mike. I have your article on trying to get a 86 Winchester in 40-82 to shoot, and another early one trying cast in 9mm autos :-)

.................Buckshot

[KCSO]

Mike
When I was about 12 someone dropped one of those off in Dad's cruiser one night in downtown Omaha. We had it hanging in the basement for a long time before it was turned over to the ATF. Back them ammo was nearly impossible to find and so the gun was just a wall hanger. We shot it once and ran out of ammo in about 10 seconds!

[Mike Venturino]

KSCO: I checked the rpms of mine the other day with the Romanian 86 grain FMJ military surplus stuff. The PACT MK IV Chronograph & Timer has an rpm feature. Anyway, it squirted out 10 rounds in just under .49 seconds. That computes to about 1200 rpms. Nominal for it is 900 but that thing is fast!

MLV

[Hardcast416taylor]

Well, I got the straight scoop today from our county sheriff on legality of owning a sub gun here in Mich. Yes you can own a sub gun, if you have enough thousands to get one, he said. And the stamp/ fee is $200, about 10 minutes shooting of factory ammo, he also said.Robert

[Mike Venturino]

Buckshot: I almost missed your post. Right about the .40-82 and cast/9mm articles. The thread that runs through most of my stuff nowadays is the historical connection. At least that's the way I want it to be.

MLV

[NickSS]

I got a surprise a long time ago when I bought what was advertized and looked like an M1 carbine. I saw the add in the paper and called. The guy told me he still had it so I went to his house and under a dim light on the porch looked and the rifle. I really only looked down the bore and cycled the op rod. I bought it for $60 bucks (that will tell you how long ago this was). When I got it home I went to clean it and noticed the selector switch on the left side of the receiver. When I took it out of the stock all the full auto parts were there and the M1 on the reciever was overstamped with a 2. I could not resist so took it to a place to shoot it where no one would hear and blasted away nearly 500 rounds of cast reloads in it. No jams but at further than about 25 yards I could only get about one hut per burst on a 5 gallon pail. Subsequent to this I pulled all the full auto parts off the gun and through them in the river on my way to work. After replacing the parts with M1 parts I had a nice carbine that I kept for years.

[KCSO]

The 48 rounds that we found back then didn't last long did they!