Fast curing bullet lube

[jcadwell]

I'm casting for my Marlin 30-30 and my 1911 (45ACP) using lee molds, and lubing with Lee Tumble Alox. While it is certainly easy to lube, I try to keep all my reloading activities in one sitting. Can anyone reccomend a lube that would allow me to lube and reload without waiting overnight for the lube to harden? Thanks.

[grumble]

Try cutting the Liquid Alox about 1:1 or 1:2 with mineral spirits. Use a hair dryer to speed up the drying process in an open pan. If need be, sprinkle some motor mica on the boolits before handling them, to dry them out.

[versifier]

LA works best when left to dry overnight. The more hot & humid it is, the longer it takes to dry. If it's cool and dry, it can harden in a few hours. Haven't tried the mica, but thinning with mineral spirits works well - you might need a second coat if it's too thin. If you are in that much of a hurry, get a conventional lubrisizer as if you rush it, you're going to end up with a mess.

[grumble]

So Versifier, you're saying that in your experience, using a hair dryer SLOWS the drying process? That COOL and dry is faster than WARM and dry to cure Liquid Alox?

[StarMetal]

grumble,

I know from doing alot of wood work and applying various finishes that there are diffferent requirements for finished to dry. Take Min-Wax Polyurethane clear finish for example. I had thought that heat would help it dry or cure it. Well after a phone call to the engineer tech at Min-Wax I found out that was no good that soley air movement around the finish is what drys it. So Versifier may be right about what he was saying.

Joe

[grumble]

Polyurethane is sorta like epoxy in that it is a two-compound material. Alox doesn't use any sort of chemical reaction to dry, it just dries out.

Having used the hair dryer method, I can say with a lot of confidence that it speeds the hell out of the drying process. All it does is force the solvent to evaporate, and that happens a LOT faster with heat and moving air.

[StarMetal]

Heat cures almost all epoxies faster....it doesn't polyurethane finishes...they are different. The solvents for Min-Wax polyurethane is Mineral Spirits or Paint Thinner...that sure doesn't sound like an epoxy type material if those are the thinners and solvents. One solvent for some epoxies is Acetone...alot different stuff then Mineral Spirits. I was only using the polyurethane for an example.

Joe

[grumble]

"...I was only using the polyurethane for an example."

Yep, I realize that. And I'm just saying that I KNOW that a hair dryer speeds up the dry time for Lee Liquid Alox. Heat and moving air make a big difference in Liquid Alox dry time, regardless of what epoxy or polyurethane are made of.

[felix]

Joe, the urethanes are tricky. There are quite a few different formulations, and there is one type that specifically should be used for gun stuff, like stocks. That would be the moisture cure type (air humidity). It dries to a very tough finish that won't show scratches. Gouges, yes, but not scratches. You typically see it on resturant floors, and in the better homes with lots of kids and dogs. If it does not look terribly shiney, I bet it is a moisture cure type. By nature, typical solvents would have to be water soluble for these types. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Yeah I used a water based urethane on my hardwook floors. This stuff dried like in 15 to 20 mins too! The polyurethane finish that Min-Wax makes is alot different then that floor urethane. You're sure right that there are alot of them out there.

Joe

[44man]

I just don't know what the attraction of LA is! SPEED? Maybe, but My worst accuracy and worst leading in every revolver was with the junk. (up to 3 coats.)Pro and con, it has more con's then most lubes. Sub velocity plinking stuff---maybe!
Sorry guys, I will stick with Felix lube for everything. You can post 1 million posts but will never convince me that LA it is a good lube. I have bottles of the stuff I will give away. Just come and get it. It came with the sizing dies and sits in a drawer. Maybe it will morph into something else with age.

[grumble]

That's ok, 44man, you don't need to apologize for not being able to use Liquid Alox. Those of us who like the stuff really don't mind that you can't use it.

[sundog]

+1 for can't use LA. I got same results as 44man, several times. For those of y'all what get good results, great. And, yes, I think there's a few bottles never been used.

Maybe I ought to try it one more time. sundog

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't used a lot of the Liquid Alox, and most of that has been to treat paper-patched boolits. It EXCELS at that. When bore riders give me grief, I try dipping the boolit noses into the stuff. That works, too.

[StarMetal]

sundog,

Mix your bottles 50/50 with beeswax and you have Lars45 Beeswax/Alox lube.

Joe

[44man]

Good idea Joe. Must be good for something. Since I shoot all hot hunting loads, the stuff never worked.
Maybe if I tumble lubed and then put my Felix on, it would work.

[StarMetal]

Well 44man, I don't shoot either of those products..Lee's Liquid Alox or Vaseline. I'm just making suggestions that may help those that do.

Joe

[44man]

Joe, I have used every lube on the market, plus many home made ones. Some are good, some suck. Groups at the target and how many shots that can be fired without losing accuracy or leading the bore tell the story.
As far as I am concerned, LA works OK for light loads but the loads would most likely work with no lube too. Smoking the boolits would do as good. WAY over rated and the lazy mans lube!
Watch me get thumped with that statement!
How many guys have posted pictures of groups as good as yours or mine?

[grumble]

"...LA works OK for light loads but the loads would most likely work with no lube too. Smoking the boolits would do as good. WAY over rated and the lazy mans lube!"

Yep, can't argue that. It IS fast and easy. Haven't tried using no lube or smoke, so I can't speak to that, but I have tried using moly and graphite, and I prefer alox. But, moly PLUS alox is about as good as it gets without spending a lot of time.

"Watch me get thumped with that statement!"

thump-thump.

"How many guys have posted pictures of groups as good as yours or mine?"

You may not have noticed, but there aren't a lot of chest-thumpers here. That's one of the nice things about this forum.

[versifier]

So Versifier, you're saying that in your experience, using a hair dryer SLOWS the drying process? That COOL and dry is faster than WARM and dry to cure Liquid Alox?
I never said anything of the sort. Please don't put words in my mouth - my foot usually takes up most of the available room. :mrgreen: Go back and read my post. I was referring to air drying them, and they do harden faster in cool dry air compared to warm and humid. Blasting them with hot dry air from a blow dryer ought to work just fine, dry being the operative word here. Humidity is what slows the solvent evaporation. (More water molecules suspended in the air, less room for large volatile organic solvent molecules. Warm air has less density and greater space between gas molecules and can hold more other molecules in suspension than cold air.) It gets more humid around here in warmer weather, so boolits dry faster when it's cooler because the air is dryer.
I have good results using it on handgun and rifle boolits, generally at moderate velocities (up to 1200-1300 with .30, .35, .44, and .45 cal pistol boolits - ww - and around 2000 with .30 cal rifle boolits - lino and 1/2&1/2), with one exception: I can push Lee .30cal soupcans out of a .30-30 at up to 2700fps without any leading. Boolits for it are cast either in lino or 1/2&1/2 lino & pure lead, and all my boolits are lubed with one thick coat of LA that is usually left to dry overnight before sizing.

[David R]

LLA has its place. I use it for my 7.65 arg. I have no .314 die for my lube sizer. I just TL them, put the gas checks on through a LEE push through die and tl em again. No leading, shoots fine for the application. I also tried it in my 38. It seems promising so far as leading is concerened. Accuracy is good too. Everything else goes through the lube sizer.

David

[Newtire]

I just don't know what the attraction of LA is! SPEED? Maybe, but My worst accuracy and worst leading in every revolver was with the junk. (up to 3 coats.)Pro and con, it has more con's then most lubes. Sub velocity plinking stuff---maybe!
Sorry guys, I will stick with Felix lube for everything. You can post 1 million posts but will never convince me that LA it is a good lube. I have bottles of the stuff I will give away. Just come and get it. It came with the sizing dies and sits in a drawer. Maybe it will morph into something else with age.
Have loaded .30-30 up to jacketted velocity with H-335 & 748 and .444 with every kind of powder it takes. Come to think of it, have used Liquid Alox in .30-06, .30-30, .38 special, .44 mag too. Are you sure you're not one of the spies against Richard Lee's products? hah hah...actually, I like the stuff except for it's a righteous mess unless you put mica on it.

[grumble]

"Blasting them with hot dry air from a blow dryer ought to work just fine, dry being the operative word here..."

That's good. You had me worried there for a bit.

"I have good results using it on handgun and rifle boolits, generally at moderate velocities (up to 1200-1300 with .30, .35, .44, and .45 cal pistol boolits - ww - ..."

Sounds like our experiences are similar. I've never had any lino to mess with, so I can't compare results with that. I find the limit to good results with Liquid Alox to be somethere around 1400 to 1600 fps, depending on what the jin of the boolit and rifle are for that particular day.

[redbear705]

So do you use LA then let dry overnite and then size and then use LA again before reloading?

JR

[grumble]

If you were asking me, JR, no. I thin the alox with mineral spirits, roll the boolits in a plastic container to coat them, dump 'em in a big aluminum foil turkey pan about one or two boolits deep, hit 'em with a hair dryer until they're "un-sticky" enough to handle (about 5-10 minutes). Then I size 'em and use a little (just a few drops) more thinned alox on 'em. After that, they go back in the turkey pan. If I plan to load them immediately, they get squirted with the hair dryer again until they're mostly dry, then they get a sprinkling of mica. If I don't intend to load them right away, they get enough hair dryer treatment to evaporate most of the mineral spirits, and then I cover the pan with a towel or cloth (to keep any dust from sticking) and leave 'em alone overnight. After that they're ready for storage.

[versifier]

Redbear, I haven't ever needed to lube twice, but if I were having leading problems, I would try that first before considering lubing by another method. My next choice would be pan lubing as it would still let me use push-through sizers, my preferred method of sizing. I have not yet had to resort to this, but I am beginning tests for 180gr hunting loads for my.308, and I suspect that the softer alloys I need for adequate expansion will exceed the capabilities of the LA, but I'm going to try every possible way of using it that I can think of before admitting defeat. :-D
Maybe it just works best with harder alloys, or possibly the specific lube is less critical with them. Any thoughts on that?
As to linotype, I have been blessed by the casting gods twice with sizable stashes of it. About fifteen years ago, a neighbor came by out of the blue with a couple hundred pounds and asked me if I had any idea what "all them little letter thingys were good for". I traded him for ten 5-lb. diving weights (that being the only ingot mould I had at the time and used for my stash of pure lead). He figured he got the better end of the deal and I knew enough to keep my mouth shut. Last fall I found myself down to my last few ingots and was bemoaning the fact down at the range. The club prez says, "If you're into doing some up for me, I have a dozen 5gal pails full of it. I have no time to do any casting, and won't for quite a while. Can you use a big bottom pour pot? I have a bunch of moulds, too, and some boxes of gas checks...." He's too big to be an angel, never could get off the ground even if he had wings, but I figure we're good for a few years. I don't waste it on handgun boolits as I can get all the ww's I want for free, but straight or mixed for faster rifle boolits it can't be beat.

[cherok9878]

Have had decent results with LA in handgun loads less than 900fps. 30-06 with soup can and 311299 were horrible. Started with a .30 Cal, five shots, had a .280, took hours to remove all the lead. Was only trying for a 12- 1400 fps load.

[Newtire]

"...LA works OK for light loads but the loads would most likely work with no lube too. Smoking the boolits would do as good. WAY over rated and the lazy mans lube!"

Yep, can't argue that. It IS fast and easy. Haven't tried using no lube or smoke, so I can't speak to that, but I have tried using moly and graphite, and I prefer alox. But, moly PLUS alox is about as good as it gets without spending a lot of time.

"Watch me get thumped with that statement!"

thump-thump.

"How many guys have posted pictures of groups as good as yours or mine?"

You may not have noticed, but there aren't a lot of chest-thumpers here. That's one of the nice things about this forum.


Hey Grumble,
What's the secret to the Moly & Alox lube. Is it just moly grease or the Lyman type moly stick lube? Sounds like it would be worth a try just for fun. Interesting post...lotta smoke.

[grumble]

Newtire, I haven't done a lot of experimenting with the alox-moly, so I can't say what the "best" way of trying it would be. I've added a bit of moly powder (maybe 1/8 teaspoon) to about 10 lbs of dry 30 cal boolits and hand tumbled them until no powder was on the bottom of the plastic container, and then put them in my alox tumbler to add the alox. Another time, I'd tried using the moly powder according to directions in a vibratory tumbler, on some 44s. Didn't work too well with just the moly, so I then aloxed over the imbedded moly. That worked pretty well, better than just alox alone.

I've been meaning to try adding the moly directly to the alox, but haven't done that yet. Moly and wet alox are two of the more messy things on the bench to play with, and I just haven't been willing to do the clean-up. <GGG>

If you decide to try it, just remember that a little moly powder goes a long way, and moly powder gets on everything.

[44man]

Newtire, not chest thumping, just proof. I read thousands of posts talking about great groups with such and such but never actually see what they look like.
After all, this is a site to explore the best of the best. What one guy sees as great groups doesn't mean they meet everyones requirements.
I am not happy with revolver groups over 1" at 50 yd's but some think 2" groups at 20 yd's is great. So when they say such and such lube, powder and primer works great, I question it. If I have tried it and it didn't work, I dispute it.
We need a standard to work by and 1" at 7 yd's just doesn't buy it.

[grumble]

44Man, I guess we should all be thankful for your presence. Not only can you tell us what standards we should meet, you also have the final answer on how we should cast, size, lube, and reload. No point in any more discussions, we can just sit back and bask in the superiority of your presence.

We all thank you, ever so much.

[Newtire]

Newtire, not chest thumping, just proof. I read thousands of posts talking about great groups with such and such but never actually see what they look like.
After all, this is a site to explore the best of the best. What one guy sees as great groups doesn't mean they meet everyones requirements.
I am not happy with revolver groups over 1" at 50 yd's but some think 2" groups at 20 yd's is great. So when they say such and such lube, powder and primer works great, I question it. If I have tried it and it didn't work, I dispute it.
We need a standard to work by and 1" at 7 yd's just doesn't buy it.
Usually shoot @ 50 yds with my Marlin 444 (a rifle I know). With the better loads, they are all under an inch. I had a pistol that looked like yours. Mine was a Ruger 3-screw with a 2X Burris and I used to be able to shoot inside an inch with the LA stuff all day long @ 25 yds. What's the deal?

[redbear705]

I guess I should have stated that I am just getting started casting and I am doing handgun bullets. 38spl 158gr rn Lee tumblelube and 45 cal 200 lswc Lee but with the regular lube groove.

The 45 swc with LA seems to work ok but I use the LA full strength and I dont size the bullets....I just made the bell a little larger so the bullet will start and then just seat it and then finish with the factory crimp. The gun runs fine and leading is almost nonexistant so I am happy!

I am using a colt government ss with a heavier recoil spring.(22#) did use a 24# and it worked fine but while I am using the gun for IDPA I dont want to be too heavy with the spring and have a timing problem , so my thought is that if it will run with a 24# I will use a 22# just in case a variance in powder happens and the load is a little light the action will still work.

Thanks for the Info.......JR

[Old Jim]

I used LA for a while when I first got started but the mess in the dies and the mess around the cylinders of my revolvers turned me off. Yes, I probably used too much.
I never had any leading at any speeds I tried with it.
I now use a homemade beeswax, parifin and STP Oil Treatment lube that works well, looks good on the bullet and does not leave a mess behind.

[44man]

Grumble, I am not trying to pull your chain! I am just a revolver accuracy nut. I am never satisfied and work on something every day.
Some guys are stuck in a loop and all I would like to see is for them to expand their horizons and try something else. When I find something that works better, I post it. Maybe it won't work in everyones gun but isn't it worth a try instead of saying your load is good enough?
This site would be a bore if everyone loaded the same thing year after year with the same powder, lube, etc.
I listen to everyone and try what thay say works and if it doesn't, I will damned sure post it even if it works in their gun. If it is better then what I use, I will heap praise on them.
We are here to learn from each other and all I ask is for others to try things as I try what they say. I have NEVER said that my way is the only way. If I work on something for several months and it just doesn't pan out, I will say so, don't get upset!
I am after the elusive 1", 100 yd revolver groups with a factory gun and cast boolits. I am very close reaching 1-1/4". Sometimes I have put 4 out of five in a cloverleaf but always had that one flyer. My shooting is not as good as some of my guns and loads will do either.
I hope you understand that 1" groups at 20 yd's just does not turn me on.

[grumble]

How nice for you.

[txpete]

seems my marlin does just fine with the lee tl bullets.I put on 3 light coats and this load is around 1400 fps with the 340 gr lee.no leading and the flyer was me:-D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/thumper.jpg