Lil' Gun question

[machinisttx]

I'm working up a load using Lil' Gun and boolits cast from one of the 358429 NOE molds. I'm not getting any leading, but my chronograph is showing a pretty big velocity variance between shots. At 16.5 grains, which is a half grain below what hodgdon shows as max for a 170 grain J bullet, my extreme spread is about 85 fps.

That's excessive IMO, and I'm not quite sure where the problem is. I think it may be the soft remington brass I'm using, so I'll probably switch over to the starline cases I have stashed. Maybe the CCI magnums aren't hot enough?

[454PB]

I assume this is a .357 magnum. I'm guessing you are hitting somewhere around 1400 fps. with 16.5 grs. of Lil'Gun?

I don't think 85 fps is a bad extreme spread if the above is true......how is the grouping?

To test your theory of soft brass, try using some that has been fired 10 times or so and work hardened.

[shotman]

I have been told that Lil gun does that even in the compressed state like the 410 shell. I would try unique

[machinisttx]

I assume this is a .357 magnum. I'm guessing you are hitting somewhere around 1400 fps. with 16.5 grs. of Lil'Gun?

I don't think 85 fps is a bad extreme spread if the above is true......how is the grouping?

To test your theory of soft brass, try using some that has been fired 10 times or so and work hardened.

Yes, .357 mag. Average for 9 shots(didn't pick up the tenth) is 1358 fps. High was a little over 1400. I haven't been able to shoot off a good rest, so I can't comment on the groups beyond saying I don't think I'm doing the gun/load any justice....I'm used to a 4" K frame and the extra weight out front is giving me trouble keeping it steady.

Something I've noticed in the past is that even 1x fired brass from starline is noticeably more difficult to resize than 1x remington. I haven't miked wall thickness, so I'm not sure if it's thicker, or just a better grade of alloy used.

[Lloyd Smale]

your not going to find a hotter primer so thats not your problem. I would guess that its a case tension problem. either your not using enough crimp or your dies are not allowing enough case tension or your brass is to soft to allow for it.

[44man]

Save the powder for the .410. The heat can be death to a .357!
Your barrel will work great for a soldering iron after 12 shots! :mrgreen:

[felix]

Heat generation is fine for an internal combustion engine using gas that does not carry its own oxygen, and is preferred. Hence, we have diesel/jet fuel. In gas (propellent) used for guns or rocket motors, heat is a no-no. Anything more than about 20 percent nitroglycerin is too much nitro for gun use. The cordite formulation was the worse offender, followed by the hivel formulations. In fact, for high pressure use, anything more than 10 percent nitro is too much. Use the high nitro formulations in low pressure rounds. The nitro formulations are used to even out the pressure curve. ... felix

[machinisttx]

your not going to find a hotter primer so thats not your problem. I would guess that its a case tension problem. either your not using enough crimp or your dies are not allowing enough case tension or your brass is to soft to allow for it.

I'm going to try more crimp, but I suspect I'm going to get buckled cases. The dies are RCBS carbide and haven't given any trouble before...but then again, I normally use starline brass too.

[dubber123]

I'm going to try more crimp, but I suspect I'm going to get buckled cases. The dies are RCBS carbide and haven't given any trouble before...but then again, I normally use starline brass too.

If increased neck tension will be of benefit, don't overlook turning the expander smaller. I'm sure you can find someone willing to do it for you... :kidding:

[Angus]

Lil'gun generates so much heat in 357 that after <100 rounds your forcing cone will look like the surface of the moon... At least thats what Freedom Arms' testing indicates.

[machinisttx]

Lil'gun generates so much heat in 357 that after <100 rounds your forcing cone will look like the surface of the moon... At least thats what Freedom Arms' testing indicates.

Good to know. Might have to look at H110 or another slow powder.

[leftiye]

Good choice. Lil Gun and H110/296 are quite similar. Lil gun in some cartridges does things that seem unbelieveable (in a good way), the .357 apparently isn't one of them. 296 has been the accuracy champ in .357 since forever.

[machinisttx]

Shot a few more today after putting a little more crimp on them. ES with the load went down to 55 and SD went down to 20. I've got ten pieces of primed rem brass left, so I'm going to try crimping a little more. After that I'm likely going to try some H110 and the starline brass I have.

[ole 5 hole group]

Shot a few more today after putting a little more crimp on them. ES with the load went down to 55 and SD went down to 20. I've got ten pieces of primed rem brass left, so I'm going to try crimping a little more. After that I'm likely going to try some H110 and the starline brass I have.

On the upcoming 10 rounds - feel the barrel after the 1st 5 and then after the last 5 and compare the heat to H110 when you get around to loading with that - you might be surprised at the difference.

[Dale53]

I suspect the Remington brass is the culprit. You probably do not have enough case neck tension for best results.

H110 and 296 also will require adequate case neck tension but will be without the "heating problems" of Lil Gun.

Dale53

[machinisttx]

On the upcoming 10 rounds - feel the barrel after the 1st 5 and then after the last 5 and compare the heat to H110 when you get around to loading with that - you might be surprised at the difference.

Actually, I found a few 158 grain cast H110 loads I forgot about loading, found, then forgot about again :veryconfu. I fired them just prior to the Lil' Gun loads. Almost no heat, but then again, there is a lot of steel in the 8.375" full lug barrel on the 586. Still wasn't very warm after the ten rounds of Lil' Gun loads.

[machinisttx]

I suspect the Remington brass is the culprit. You probably do not have enough case neck tension for best results.

H110 and 296 also will require adequate case neck tension but will be without the "heating problems" of Lil Gun.

Dale53

That's what I think too, and the reason I started to use starline in the first place. I think I'll skip rem brass in the future for anything other than mild loads.

[HamGunner]

My .357's prefer 2400.

I had trouble getting consistent velocity with 2400 in my 280gr. .45 Colt loads. I did not want to go much over about 20,000 psi since I was shooting my New Service Colt. I have found 2400 to need higher pressures to stay consistent, but Lil'Gun came through just fine in the big bore and gave good accuracy at my pressure requirement. I suspect that 2400 might really shine in the .357 Mag. with a heavy bullet as it will generate to it's best preferred pressures and Lil'Gun seems to work better a tad bit lower in pressure.

[ole 5 hole group]

Actually, I found a few 158 grain cast H110 loads I forgot about loading, found, then forgot about again :veryconfu. I fired them just prior to the Lil' Gun loads. Almost no heat, but then again, there is a lot of steel in the 8.375" full lug barrel on the 586. Still wasn't very warm after the ten rounds of Lil' Gun loads.

Maybe your revolver will be AOK with Lil'Gun - my 50 Smith & JRH really got hot and I haven't used it since - I've got most of the pound left, don't reload 410, so I'm between a sh*t and a sweat as what to do with it, as I mainly reload for big bore revolvers and leverguns. I'll keep reading what you all do with it and I'll figure something out sooner or later.

[odis]

With my 45 colt 5 shots with heavy slugs would make the barrel at the frame EXTREMELY hot, where as fifty rds. with the same slugs and 110 or 296 was just warm. The FA tests with Lil' Gun were performed on a .357.

[machinisttx]

My .357's prefer 2400.

I had trouble getting consistent velocity with 2400 in my 280gr. .45 Colt loads. I did not want to go much over about 20,000 psi since I was shooting my New Service Colt. I have found 2400 to need higher pressures to stay consistent, but Lil'Gun came through just fine in the big bore and gave good accuracy at my pressure requirement. I suspect that 2400 might really shine in the .357 Mag. with a heavy bullet as it will generate to it's best preferred pressures and Lil'Gun seems to work better a tad bit lower in pressure.

I normally load 2400, but had this on the shelf and loading data indicated the highest velocities of any powder available. Since I wanted to push these bullets as fast as they'd safely go, I figured I'd try it. Mostly just proving a point to the "you'll lead your barrel, boy" cast bullet haters on another forum. :lol:

After I get through playing, I'll probably wind up emptying a few more pounds of 2400. :-D

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont use lil gun in revolvers anymore myself. Ill use it in a 32 mag or 3220 or a 357 rifle but thats about it and ill probably only do it till i use up the couple kegs of it i have. it bummed me out alot as it gave great velocity and great accuracy in some of my guns but one of my super blackhawks is sitting in the safe needing a new barrel because the forcing cone is to bad to even recut. I can swear its from lilgun but i shot alot of it in that gun and id guess that was the problem. If you are going to continue to use it do it sparingly. Shoot slowly and let your gun cool.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

My friend and I have been doing our homework on different using this bullet, the GB 358429 by NOE. Powders have been Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, Lil Gun, 296, and IMR 4227. We have been testing using two different Ruger Blackhawk .357 Magnum revolvers. An old model with 6.5 inch barrel and a new model with 4.625 inch barrel. Tried a few different weights of each powder, mostly near top end as this bullet has reputation of liking to be pushed hard. Even tried different lubes, one being Lyman soft and the other BCC Red. In the end, the new model with short barrel is going to be traded off. Can't get it to shoot good even with .38 Spl WC or jacketed bullets. The old model appears to like 16 gns of Lil Gun. Groups at 15 yds (max on current range out of wind down by crick) is barely over 1 inch. 2400, 296, and Blue Dot came close, all maybe better than 2 inch. IMR 4227 did not do good in either gun, spreading bullets into more of a pattern than a group. The short barreled new model never got better than 3 inches with anything. I did not notice that any powder made the barrel hotter than others. Then again, I did not shoot it all that fast as I was out for accuracy. BTW, the Lil Gun loads all had WIDE spreads in velocity, like even 100 fps, yet shot well. Go figure. Gave highest velocity and not even hint of pressure.

[machinisttx]

i dont use lil gun in revolvers anymore myself. Ill use it in a 32 mag or 3220 or a 357 rifle but thats about it and ill probably only do it till i use up the couple kegs of it i have. it bummed me out alot as it gave great velocity and great accuracy in some of my guns but one of my super blackhawks is sitting in the safe needing a new barrel because the forcing cone is to bad to even recut. I can swear its from lilgun but i shot alot of it in that gun and id guess that was the problem. If you are going to continue to use it do it sparingly. Shoot slowly and let your gun cool.

The barrel can, and should be, set back one full turn before setting the barrel to cylinder gap and recutting the forcing cone. I don't know what the thread pitch is on the blackhawks, but I would guess that it will remove at least .030" by setting back one turn. A new barrel isn't required unless the old one is bulged or has some other defect. :-)

[HamGunner]

Even before loading data became available for Lil'Gun, I found that it was the powder that I had been searching for to use in my .22 K-Hornet. I know that a small rifle case and bore is not really relevant to the likes and dislikes of a .357, but I did find that I could get plenty more velocity out of Lil'Gun than with W-296. I notice now that they are both near the same burning rate on the charts, but Lil'Gun gets the velocity without stretching primer pockets. Did not really pay much attention to the heating of the barrel as I did not fire all that fast, but the lack of high pressure amazed me. The little Hornet case has a very fragile primer pocket and was very easy to see the difference in generated chamber pressure compared to W-296 and 2400. Even less than max loads of the 296 and 2400 stretched the little case's primer pockets.

As I stated earlier, I think I like Lil'Gun for heavy bullet, but mid level .45 Colt loads, but I have not tried it in .44 mag. or .357 mag. loads where the pressure can safely climb on up a bit. I do know that the .357 mag. is one cartridge where the powder many times does not reach it's full burn and pressure before the base of the bullet reaches the cylinder gap. That certainly contributes to the increased gas cutting problem and the reason that the .357 mag. is extremely loud. I can not stand to hunt with ear plugs in and I also can not bear the ringing in my ears that even one shot from a .357 mag. gives me. I do not hunt with one, and I certainly would hate to get in a firefight with full house loads. I don't think that my ears would recover, even if I was not injured otherwise.

[Bucks Owin]

When I first became aware of LilGun and Hodgdon's data on it I had to hurry out and get some to try in a .357 M-19. After all, over 1500 fps with a 158 gr at only 25K! Sounded too good to be true. It was. With 18.0 grs behind a 158 gr J-boolit, I got a 1350 "average" in a 6" barrel with SD/ES all over the map. Tried with CCI 550 and heavy crimp too. I gave up on LG in the .357 after a hundred rds or so of varying charges and no improvement. Used up the can in .44 mag loads where it didn't seem any better if as good as W-296 except for a lot of flash. So much for LilGun on my bench......FWIW, Dennis