45/70 unburnt powder Q...

[j23]

Took my freshy loaded 45/70 rounds out to the range today to try in my Ruger #1. I observed three attributes of this load which I wanted the castboolits gang's opinion of...

The load is 38.5 grains of IMR3031 in WW cases, primed with CCI Std Large rifle primers, topped off with a 457193 boolit cast of straight wheelweights, unsized at 457 (from the mold :???: ) and lubed with Lyman Alox stick in my sizer.

1. Quite of bit of unburnt 3031 in the bore after every shot. Normal?

2. For a trapdoor load (abit, the maximum trap door load..) it kicks, heavily. Granted, the Ruger #1 isnt exactly a boat anchor but that thing comes up off the bench with some authority when the trigger is squeezed... you really need to hold onto it!

3. 3 shot groups ran in the 2-1/2 range... is that good for this combo? I suppose it's minute of deer anyhow.. I wont be shooting much further with that load than 100 yards anyhow, and I am handicapping myself with a Burris Mini 4x20 scope... the crosshairs cover almost an inch and a half at 100 yards.

[Rocky Raab]

I haven't looked up the pressure such a load probably develops, but I'd wager it is under the design pressure window for 3031. That's almost always the reason for unburnt powder kernels. It likely has no adverse effect at all, so if that load meets your other requirements, just ignore the kernels. (No end of people ignored me when I was a kernel - er...colonel!)

If a cleaner burn is more important to you, you'll have to shift to a faster powder. Faster powders normally have lower pressure envelopes. 4198, RL-7, RL-10X, H322, A2015, Benchmark or something in that bracket would be a good place to begin. Contrary to popular belief, you probably won't get better results with a hotter primer.

[BABore]

Yes, your a bit light on powder charge for that burn rate. I'm 10 grains hotter than that with a 420 grain boolit in a 450 Marlin. In a 45-70 it would be 12+ grains more. This is not a trapdoor load by any means though. IMR 3031, H322, and Benchmark all have very similar burn rates in the 45-70. Charge weights are almost identical. Faster powders like Reloder 7 and 4198 are a much better choice. That said, even they can struggle some at low TD pressures. IMR 4759 is a very good one for your boolit weight and TD speed. Start at about 24 grains and work up. See the Lyman manual (s) for exact TD min/max, not that you have to abide by that with your rifle.

Have you ever slugged the bbl on your #1? Shooting a 0.457 boolit sounds a bit small to me. I would think 0.459+ would be more like it, but I haven't slugged one before. With a booit that small, your expander size and case neck tension can also be an issue. Good neck tension helps with powder combustion. Crimp too, but to a much lesser extent.

[405]

I read and hear talk all the time about shooters loading that weight bullet up to MVs approaching 1900 fps. "Bar" defense or long range shootin' is the usual reason. May have more to do with testosterone than anything. Yes there is significant recoil. According to Lyman you should be around 1350 fps and about 16000 CUP.

That velocity and bullet is plenty for any deer (or three) walking but accuracy is everything.... never saw a paper target limp off as a cripple. Not knowing the groove diameter of your bore no telling on best diameter for the bullet???? You are probably very near the limit with smokeless under that plain base bullet.

In my experience and in my opinion the most accurate/useful smokeless powder combo in that 405 gr weight range and with a practical hunting velocity of around 1200-1300 in the 45-70...... a "trapdoor" charge of 5744 under a Gas Checked version of the 405 grain (RCBS has one) and sized to at least groove diameter up to about .001" larger than groove diameter is it.

The unburned power kernals are normal and I have not found them to bother anything.

[Ricochet]

The good old Remington factory loads with the 405 grain soft point always left a good bit of unburned tubular powder. I figured it was likely that 38 grain load of 3031, but could've been 4198. I never pulled one to weigh it.

[Dframe]

I'm using that same exact charge. I've used it for years. The few unburned kernels of powder can be ignored. It shoots well out of all my 45/70s (4) and yes there's some recoil. I used a slip-on recoil pad for a while, then had a smith install a thick shotgun style pad on my guns butt. Thats why I am continuously baffled by people trying to turn the 45/70 into a 458 magnum. I'm shooting 3 inch groups with iron sights and really old eyes so I'd guess you're doing quite well.
If the recoil becomes unpleasant using 3031, try using Trail Boss. It's VERY mild and great for cowboy long range rifle competition

[Gunlaker]

Took my freshy loaded 45/70 rounds out to the range today to try in my Ruger #1. I observed three attributes of this load which I wanted the castboolits gang's opinion of...

The load is 38.5 grains of IMR3031 in WW cases, primed with CCI Std Large rifle primers, topped off with a 457193 boolit cast of straight wheelweights, unsized at 457 (from the mold :???: ) and lubed with Lyman Alox stick in my sizer.

1. Quite of bit of unburnt 3031 in the bore after every shot. Normal?

2. For a trapdoor load (abit, the maximum trap door load..) it kicks, heavily. Granted, the Ruger #1 isnt exactly a boat anchor but that thing comes up off the bench with some authority when the trigger is squeezed... you really need to hold onto it!

3. 3 shot groups ran in the 2-1/2 range... is that good for this combo? I suppose it's minute of deer anyhow.. I wont be shooting much further with that load than 100 yards anyhow, and I am handicapping myself with a Burris Mini 4x20 scope... the crosshairs cover almost an inch and a half at 100 yards.

That load is pretty much on the bottom end of what you want to do with IMR 3031, although I shoot an identical load out of my Marlin and sometimes my Ruger #1.

As far as answers to your questions I'd say:

1) Yup. :-)

2) That load is good for about 1200fps in my 1895G. You oughta try an 1800fps+ load in the Ruger. That'll kick :-).

3) I imagine you'll get better accuracy with a larger diameter cast bullet in the Ruger #1. I use 0.459"

I'd try bumping up the charge a couple of grains and maybe a larger diameter bullet if you can.

BTW, have you tried a Postell style bullet in the Ruger? That's about the most fun I can have with my scoped Ruger. A 525gr Postell at about 1100fps on the 200 yard gong :-)

Chris.

[TDC]

Sounds to me like you've got a bit more load development ahead of you.... Everything I'd suggest has already been mentioned if you plan to continue to use that boolit and components.

I own 3 #1's and your accuracy issue is a sure "red light" for a normally very accurate rifle. I don't own a #1 in 45-70, but if it were me I'd dump that powder and start over.

With the exception of some early #1's that had throat problems I personally haven't known one that wasn't a near tack driver in most calibers with carefully developed boolits and loads...

Recoil? Well, if you think the 45-70 is rough try a #1 Tropical .375H&H or even a hot loaded .338 Win mag in a 26" 1-B. I sympathetically doubt if your 45-70 will ever be in the "comfortable plinker" category... but what a great hunting caliber with cast boolits. Best solution is a Limbsaver and a lot of scope eye-relief.... :)

[runfiverun]

try a large rifle primer

[Buckshot]

....................Add a tuft of dacron to that load. It may tighten up your group and get rid of some of that unburned powder.

BTW, my favorite general purpose load in my 577-450 Martini is 38.0grs IMR3031 + dacron under a patched 405gr slug. Velocity from the 33" bbl is about 1250 fps.

http://www.fototime.com/84C2840C23E9FD2/standard.jpg

That's a 45-70 there with the 577-450, so you can see the case volumn difference.

.............Buckshot