AR question

[jcw1970]

I'm looking to get a AR and wanted to know what you all thought would be a good starter gun. I want to get used to the feel of it so I'm not looking for a target model. something cheap but not a piece of junk, something i can trade in when i'm ready for a better model. Should i just go for the 22 LR model which would be cheap to shoot and i could get familar with the feel.

[richbug]

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=161

These are tough to beat for the money. All I have seen were new with minor cosmetic imperfections. Add a 22 conversion and you are in business.

[mike in co]

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=161

These are tough to beat for the money. All I have seen were new with minor cosmetic imperfections. Add a 22 conversion and you are in business.


i would agree, these APPEAR to be a deal in todays market. you will need a scope and mount, dot and mount or carry handle as the rifle has no rear sight as sold.

typically i suggest a known brand...rock river, armalite, bushmaster....notice i left colt out...they tried to sell your gun rights away to keep themselves in business....DO NOT BUY A COLT.

mike in co

[buckweet]

ohhhhh............missed this one.....


yes, check out CMMG... bargin bin.. 599 , $$$

i thinkis a GREAT deal...


weet

[StarMetal]

ohhhhh............missed this one.....


yes, check out CMMG... bargin bin.. 599 , $$$

i thinkis a GREAT deal...


weet

Read this forum before you make your final decision:
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f20/thoughts-cmmg-3150/

[richbug]

Read this forum before you make your final decision:
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f20/thoughts-cmmg-3150/

Do you have any personal experience with the guns in question or are you just passing on some internet ramblings?

[mike in co]

sorry...BUT ALL AR'S ARE PARTS GUNS!!!!!!!
NO ONE MAKES ALL THE PARTS THEMSELVES..all buy some of the parts from outside vendors.


mike in co

[Ekalb2000]

I got an upper assy from del-ton last year. $465, shipped to my front door. Got the Stag lower for $70 from a guy at work. He was into AK's. That del-ton was a cool little rifle, just couldnt afford to feed it. After I sighted it in, all I did was waste ammo as fast as I could shove it in the mag.
I hear there is like a 12-16 week wait.
I sold mine last month to fund a ruger 44 and winchester 44. Much better now.

[bravokilo]

"notice i left colt out...they tried to sell your gun rights away to keep themselves in business....DO NOT BUY A COLT."

mike in co



This is getting to sound like a broken record. Just what exactly did they do and when did they do it?
Let's have some facts instead of just accusations.

You seem to forget Willy B's stab in the back regarding the hi-cap magazine ban. The "unwashed masses" can't be trusted with hi-cap mags, don't you know. Haven't bought a any new (and very, very few used) Rugers since.

You also seem to be forgetting S&W's little "back room" deals with Der Slickmeister. Their sales went in the tank and they were sold to a company with a much better attitude. I haven't bought any new S&W's since then either, but that's because I haven't found any that I had to have.

So, let's have some facts. I also want to know how many times the ownership and/or management has changed hands since then.


BK

[badge176]

Get a completed lower receiver assembly (trigger group installed and function/ safety checked, the prices on these have steadily climbed for the past 12 months- Wonder why?), then shop around for an "upper of opportunity", or when a somebody changes their mind about how long a barrel, what chambering, contour, flat top, carry handle etc. and they post it for sale (gun shop, gun show, internet, etc.). I have assembled 4 or 5 ARs this way (work- related training), and have gotten "the cart before the horse" on at least two occassions (found a wicked good price on a lightly used upper then obtained the lower to complete it.)

Beware, you could soon find youself with a 16.5 inch lightweight flat top upper, a 20 inch A2 sighted Heavy Barrel upper, a pistol caliber upper, a dedicated .22LR upper, a .50AE upper, a couple of other barrels and loose uppers laying around amongst two or three stock assemblies and a few spare pistol grips/ forends/ sights, scope mounts, .... They are accessory pigs and since they are modular you can easily end up with lots of options (really, "it is a friend of mine who acquired all that stuff, I'm not that kind of guy myself, no really I'm not"

jcw1970- PM me if you have questions...

[c3d4b2]

If I remember correctly.... The time period may be a little off ..... In the late 80's or early 90's Colt voluntarily decided to no longer sell certain firearms to the public.

The difference I see between the Colt situation and Smith and Wesson situation was Smith and Wesson was in financial distress and was held hostage by the government, while Colt voluntarily bowed to the anti-gun sentiment.

I did not approve of Smith and Wesson's decision and I was glad to see the foreign influence that made the decision leave the company.

[garandsrus]

jcw1970,

You may be better off getting a quality rifle to start with. I would suggest a Rock River National Match. It will come with a very good two stage trigger, free float tube, quality barrel, etc. That way your equipment won't limit your shooting. You will be able to grow into the rifles capabilities instead of surpassing it. I would think that a RR AR would hold it's value better than a no-name brand also.

It doesn't take long to figure out how to shoot the AR. It does take a while to figure out how to shoot good scores in High Power matches! You need a rifle that shoots well to help you get better. If you don't have quality equipment, you will never know if it is you or the rifle that threw a shot. As an example, most folks that go from shooting a Garand in a 500 point High Power match will gain about 50 points the first time they shoot a National Match AR-15 in the same match! That works out to every shot, on average, being in the next higher scoring ring, which is pretty amazing. The difference is the accuracy of the rifle and loads as well as the reduced recoil of the .223.

Some guys I know have AR's that don't have the free float tube, etc. and the rifles don't shoot anywhere near as accurately as a NM rifle.

The RR AR I own is one of my most accurate rifles, especially for large groups (20 rounds) shot fairly quickly. Their accuracy guarantee is 3/4 minute.

John

[NickSS]

I bought an Olympic Arms Plinker Plus rifle a few years ago and find it a great rifle. I am not sure what they sell for today but its got an A2 lower with and A1 upper with a 16 inch barrel. Min will turn in 1 inch groups with good ammo. I also have a conversion unit to fire 22 RF ammo in it. This works well too.

[corvette8n]

I've built two AR's from two differant lowers. There are only about a dozen or so manufactures of lowers, some are just rebranded. I hve noticed some lowers seem to be machined to tighter specs than others. I am pleased with Olympic and Doublestar. Buying a lower and putting it together then purchasing an upper may not be the cheapest way to go but you will get a custom rife for your needs.


AIM has this lower
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Aero_Precision_AP15_AR15_Multi_Caliber_Lower_Recei ver.html

You will soon find out an Ar15 can be a money pit as as you purchase differant uppers, buttstocks, mags, trigger kits and customize the h*ll out of it.

[buckweet]

[B]They are accessory pigs and since they are modular you can easily end up with lots of options [/U](really, "it is a friend of mine who acquired all that stuff, I'm not that kind of guy myself, no really I'm not"

jcw1970- PM me if you have questions...



[quote] im not that kind of guy myself, no really i'm not........


NOW thats funy right there !!!:p;)



weet

[jcw1970]

This may be a dumb question, but why can't you get an AR from the CMP?

[corvette8n]

This may be a dumb question, but why can't you get an AR from the CMP?

cause current M16 are select fire(full auto and 3 shot burst) so unless you live in a machine gun state you are out of luck.

[Ctkelly]

CMMG is a big player in the Ar market. They do manufacture their lowers for sure, maybe uppers too and sell them to other companies...I hesitate to say smaller companies because rock river doesnt even manufacture their parts. CMMG's barrels are made from 4150 steel which has more carbon and is harder to machine than the typical 4140 barrels out there. They also have true M4 feed ramps. I dont think you can go wrong with one.

I owned a RRA for several years until I just recently sold it (like, last week recent). Never did have a problem with it...just didnt shoot it that often and .223 is no longer "cheap" to blaze through like it once was. One thing I liked about RRA was almost all of them came with two stage national match triggers.

If you want to reach to the top of the Ar food chain, look at LMT (lewis machine tool).

[lead-1]

I was thinking that Colt was dealing for their life simular to S&W, the govt. was
holding the M-16 nad M-4 contracts over their head by threatening a deal other
companies. Think along the line of going from 1911 to M9 Beretta. As for what
AR15 lowers are the best or better than, here is a list of who makes who.

Who actually makes my AR-15 lower receiver?

Cavalry Arms
* Cavalry Arms

Continental Machine Tool
* Stag
* Rock River Arms
* High Standard
* Noveske
* Century (New)
* Global Tactical
* CLE
* S&W
* MGI
* Wilson Tactical
* Grenadier Precision
* Colt

Essential Arms
* Essential Arms

JVP
* Double Star
* LRB

LAR Manufacturing
* Anvil Arms
* LAR
* Bushmaster
* Ameetec
* DPMS
* CMMG
* Double Star
* Fulton Armory
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* Spike's Tactical

Lewis Machine & Tool
* LMT
* Lauer
* DS Arms
* PWA
* Eagle
* Armalite
* Knights Armament
* Barrett

Mega Machine Shop
* Mega
* GSE
* Dalphon
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* POF
* Alexander Arms

Olympic
* Olympic
* SGW
* Tromix
* Palmetto
* Dalphon
* Frankford
* Century (Old)

Sabre Defense
* Sabre Defense

Sun Devil
* Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior
* Superior Arms
__________________

[StarMetal]

M4 feed ramps don't matter unless you're using an M4 upper receiver. Better stated if you're just building an AR15 rifle you don't need M4 feed ramps. If you mix match Barrel extensions and upper receivers with different feed ramps you can be in trouble with feeding problems.

I'd say the older daddy of making AR/M16 major parts is CMT. I'd also say that a few upper line manufacturers are LWRC and believe it or not Les Baur builds one heck of an AR15.

Joe

[bcarver]

Order a 89.95 lower from spikes tactical and a 465.99 kit from del-ton.com.
Your looking at 555.98 plus shipping (21.95 from del-ton and maybe 10 to 15 from spikes).

[dk17hmr]

I just ordered one of the Bargin Bin AR-15's, I will let you know my thoughts of it when it gets here next week.

Not sure yet what I am going to do for a sighting system on it yet.

[StarMetal]

jcw1970,

You may be better off getting a quality rifle to start with. I would suggest a Rock River National Match. It will come with a very good two stage trigger, free float tube, quality barrel, etc. That way your equipment won't limit your shooting. You will be able to grow into the rifles capabilities instead of surpassing it. I would think that a RR AR would hold it's value better than a no-name brand also.

It doesn't take long to figure out how to shoot the AR. It does take a while to figure out how to shoot good scores in High Power matches! You need a rifle that shoots well to help you get better. If you don't have quality equipment, you will never know if it is you or the rifle that threw a shot. As an example, most folks that go from shooting a Garand in a 500 point High Power match will gain about 50 points the first time they shoot a National Match AR-15 in the same match! That works out to every shot, on average, being in the next higher scoring ring, which is pretty amazing. The difference is the accuracy of the rifle and loads as well as the reduced recoil of the .223.

Some guys I know have AR's that don't have the free float tube, etc. and the rifles don't shoot anywhere near as accurately as a NM rifle.

The RR AR I own is one of my most accurate rifles, especially for large groups (20 rounds) shot fairly quickly. Their accuracy guarantee is 3/4 minute.

John

I hate to disagree with you, but the RRA's National Match doesn't have the more common and more accurate free float tubes more commonly associated with target, varminter, match AR's. They have a floated standard type AR15 forearm. Here's their page with it: http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=226

Next I wouldn't exactly call a Wilson barrel a premium barrel. It's a mass produced barrel along the lines of E.R. Shaw. This Wilson is not to be confused with the Wilson gunsmith of 1911 fame. They are decent barrels, I will say that. Three quarter inch groups guarantee is a pretty strong statement. I don't see that in their ad unless I missed it. Les Baer only guarantee's 1/2 inch with some of his rifles and they are many many shelves above RRA. I don't have anything against RRA, just tired of hearing people thing they are one of the best. Stag makes their receivers. Heck you can buy a Stag receiver upper/lower and build your own AR and put a real premium barrel on it. Here's Wilson Arms: http://www.wilsonarms.com/

Joe

[Storydude]

sorry...BUT ALL AR'S ARE PARTS GUNS!!!!!!!
NO ONE MAKES ALL THE PARTS THEMSELVES..all buy some of the parts from outside vendors.


mike in co

This is the truth, BUT....There is a BIG ..B I G difference between the parts some makers buy....and other makers buy.

Case in point..I bought a Model 1 sales "kit" a few years back(pre panic). the sear on the trigger and hammer had, no lie, 1/64" of an inch of sear surface actually catching the hammer. I'm surprised it passed the drop test. Casting voids, casting flash, mis-reamed holes, improper spec'ed pin sizes....The AR IS the sum of it's parts. I felt dirty putting that upper and LPK into my MEGA lower. I sold it shortly after.

Now, a company like LMT, Noveske and CMT are light years ahead of the parts included with the "kit" sure they may all LOOK the same, but the quality of the parts is light years ahead of the bargain parts makers.

The AR platform is one platform you get what you pay for. sure you can get a sub 600 dollar one....but compare a 600 dollar AR to a 750 dollar ar and you'll be amazed at the difference in fit, finish and quality.

[mike in co]

joe,
i think(again vary dangerous) that stag may make thier left hand uppers, but i doubt they do thier lowers or std uppers.
i'll call this week and see what i can find out.
( i have three lefties, all 16" comming in this week)

mike in co

[StarMetal]

joe,
i think(again vary dangerous) that stag may make thier left hand uppers, but i doubt they do thier lowers or std uppers.
i'll call this week and see what i can find out.
( i have three lefties, all 16" comming in this week)

mike in co

Mike,

I'm not positive, I don't think anyone really could be unless your worked at all the companies. With that said there is a fellow on the AR15 forum that studies this stuff and has all the receivers and compares them to finish, ( and I don't mean just the coating) letter stampings, thicknesses here and there, etc.. He said RRA is CMT receivers which Stag is CMT's commercial outlet.

Joe

[machinisttx]

"notice i left colt out...they tried to sell your gun rights away to keep themselves in business....DO NOT BUY A COLT."

mike in co



This is getting to sound like a broken record. Just what exactly did they do and when did they do it?
Let's have some facts instead of just accusations.

You seem to forget Willy B's stab in the back regarding the hi-cap magazine ban. The "unwashed masses" can't be trusted with hi-cap mags, don't you know. Haven't bought a any new (and very, very few used) Rugers since.

You also seem to be forgetting S&W's little "back room" deals with Der Slickmeister. Their sales went in the tank and they were sold to a company with a much better attitude. I haven't bought any new S&W's since then either, but that's because I haven't found any that I had to have.

So, let's have some facts. I also want to know how many times the ownership and/or management has changed hands since then.


BK

Back when regular folks could buy new MG's, Cult prohibited dealers from selling them to anyone other than LE or military. If a dealer showed one(Cult M16) having been sold to anyone else, Cult wouldn't sell the dealer any more of them. Ruger had basically the same policy with the AC556.

I don't believe it's been that long since Cult decided it was ok for dealers to sell the "LE" series rifles to everyone... The Cult made ARs for the regular consumer market had non milspec fire control group pins and a non standard hinge pin.

[Hunter]

typically i suggest a known brand...rock river, armalite, bushmaster....notice i left colt out...they tried to sell your gun rights away to keep themselves in business....DO NOT BUY A COLT.

mike in co

You are going to have to be more specific?
I believe you have your facts confused.

There has never been a time Colt did not sell to the general public, and that includes AR type rifles.

[Hunter]

Back when regular folks could buy new MG's, Cult prohibited dealers from selling them to anyone other than LE or military. If a dealer showed one(Cult M16) having been sold to anyone else, Cult wouldn't sell the dealer any more of them. Ruger had basically the same policy with the AC556.

I don't believe it's been that long since Cult decided it was ok for dealers to sell the "LE" series rifles to everyone... The Cult made ARs for the regular consumer market had non milspec fire control group pins and a non standard hinge pin.

Again, incorrect information.
The rifles that were marked LEO only were prohibited by the AWB, Colt had nothing to do with this.
They had a separate line of AR type rifles that met the AWB's provisions in order to continue to sell to the public.
Once the AWB expired the LEO only rifles were legally available to the public.

Before you begin to pass rumors maybe you should get your facts straight huh??

[mike in co]

You are going to have to be more specific?
I believe you have your facts confused.

There has never been a time Colt did not sell to the general public, and that includes AR type rifles.

before you challenge a statement do some research....


you are wrong.....may i ask how old you are ??

colt at one time was the main supplier of m16 rifles.....when they began loosing contracts to others they tried to "buy" thier way back into the governments good graces by refusing to sell perfectly legal guns to the public....they tried to sell away your gun rights to stay in business. there was a ground roots boycott of colt products. the trigger group block in the lower, the larger forward take down pin, the odd sized trigger pins are still lingering FACTS of thier attempt.(no full autos to the public).

you are wrong...plain and simple

this was(is) an american owned/ran/based company that simply decided to make an attempt to placte the government for money, and your gun rights be damned.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

before you challenge a statement do some research....


you are wrong.....may i ask how old you are ??

colt at one time was the main supplier of m16 rifles.....when they began loosing contracts to others they tried to "buy" thier way back into the governments good graces by refusing to sell perfectly legal guns to the public....they tried to sell away your gun rights to stay in business. there was a ground roots boycott of colt products. the trigger group block in the lower, the larger forward take down pin, the odd sized trigger pins are still lingering FACTS of thier attempt.(no full autos to the public).

you are wrong...plain and simple

this was(is) an american owned/ran/based company that simply decided to make an attempt to placte the government for money, and your gun rights be damned.

mike in co

Mike Mike Mike,

My my. We know that one can buy a complete AR 15 upper without any licensing what so ever because it's the lower receiver that is serial numbered. Perhaps Colt made the front receiver pin size different because of that reason. One could buy an M 16 upper through the mail and put it on their Colt AR 15 lower, with the correct lower full auto group, and have a full auto M 16. Remember back in the "old days" one could buy all the M 16 parts, unlike today...you have to have the license. I remember when Bushmaster even use to sell them, also going to the gun shows and there were tables full of M 16 parts.

Actually there are three pin hole sized.
http://sr25.com/ar15/uppers/aruppercomparison.jpg
The one on the left is Armalite the one on right is Colt.

http://sr25.com/ar15/uppers/a1_vs_a2_frontlug.jpg
These are both Colts.

So you see quite a few pin sizes.

http://sr25.com/ar15/uppers/searrelief_ar15_m16.jpg
Here's a pic of the sear cut on the underneath portion of the upper receiver present on the M16 on right and not on present Colt AR15's on left.

By the way the 1965 is a significant date because that is the year the first complete Army Division was sent to Vietnam with the M16 then marked XM-16E1. That makes it our service rifle coming up 45 years.

Joe

[mike in co]

joe,
sorry no way...colt's changes are documented and well know, just because a couple of guys are hung up on the "colt" brand name and/or have no knowledge of history, does not change the facts.

remember at the time ar's were not the well known black rifle seen everywhere today. there was no big component market that there is today.


the compnent swap you speak of is correct, what is also correct is that colts voluntary offer to the government to quit selling full auto/full auto capable guns to the citizens of this country.


mike in co

[Hunter]

Mike, the reason the Colt receivers have the changes you mentioned is so you cannot drop in M16 parts and make an illegal automatic rifle. So unless you intend to illegally convert an AR 15 to an automatic rifle this is not an issue.

I know quite a bit about Colt, I also know that Colt Defense (who makes the rifles for the Government) and Colt Manufacturing (who makes firearms for the private sector) are separate companies.
They are located in the same factory but are separate (I have seen this first hand).

I would love to see some proof of Colt denying rifles to the public to make the government happy so they could keep the military contract.
If I remember correctly a government contract is awarded by who builds the best rifle at the lowest costs not "Hey Colt though your rifle is more expensive we will continue to buy them if you quit selling to the public"

So I still believe you are incorrect but for the sake of fairness I will call a friend of mine who works at Colt and get their side of the story.
Personally I believe you are on an unjustified witch hunt against Colt for an unfounded personal reasons.

And you cannot argue that Colt is the best built AR 15 with the 6920 being the only AR type rifle meeting all government specs.

[Hunter]

I spoke with a Colt historian and he asked for years and model numbers.
This is easily proven so provide me with facts so I need the details and we can see if you know what in the world you are talking about.

[Uncle R.]

In those days I wasn't into ARs much and didn't really care - so I can't claim that my recollection is perfect. But I AM plenty old enough to recall the things that Mike is describing - and his explanation agrees with what I remember. There certainly WAS a period when the gun-rights activists were saying "To he77 with Colt" and for reasons at least close to those Mike gives.
<
Uncle R.

[mike in co]

Mike, the reason the Colt receivers have the changes you mentioned is so you cannot drop in M16 parts and make an illegal automatic rifle. So unless you intend to illegally convert an AR 15 to an automatic rifle this is not an issue.

I know quite a bit about Colt, I also know that Colt Defense (who makes the rifles for the Government) and Colt Manufacturing (who makes firearms for the private sector) are separate companies.
They are located in the same factory but are separate (I have seen this first hand).

I would love to see some proof of Colt denying rifles to the public to make the government happy so they could keep the military contract.
If I remember correctly a government contract is awarded by who builds the best rifle at the lowest costs not "Hey Colt though your rifle is more expensive we will continue to buy them if you quit selling to the public"

So I still believe you are incorrect but for the sake of fairness I will call a friend of mine who works at Colt and get their side of the story.
Personally I believe you are on an unjustified witch hunt against Colt for an unfounded personal reasons.

And you cannot argue that Colt is the best built AR 15 with the 6920 being the only AR type rifle meeting all government specs.

i would agree that the changes are so they cannot be made into full auto guns WHICH ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL IN MANY PARTS OF THE USA !

i would full expect that colts historians would rewwrite the facts to be a politically correct answer TODAY....and not acknowledge what they did back then.....thier writers...thier story.

to claim a "colt" is "better" followed by "AR type rifle meeting all government specs" shows how blind you are. first no ar is built to government spec......there are no government spec's for semi auto ONLY rifles of the m16 design.

to cliam that "colt" rifles are "better" than others is unproven bs by you period. the ar platform is a spec driven assembly of spec built parts. the specs drive the parts, the inspectors qualify the parts and for the most part the assembly is childs play. how about calling colt back and asking then how many parts on the 6920 are made in house, not a purchased subcontract part ?? upper? lower? bbl? carrier ? BOLT ??

my guess...NONE.

sorry you are just a BLIND colt fan with no FACTS to back up your claims.

mike in co

(PS UNCLE R and i are not the best of friends...if he agrees with me...you are in deep doo doo)

[OD*]

What years did Colt supposedly stop selling to the public?

[Uncle R.]

(PS UNCLE R and i are not the best of friends...if he agrees with me...you are in deep doo doo)

Dang! I thought everybody liked me...
:wink:
<
Uncle R.

[StarMetal]

i would agree that the changes are so they cannot be made into full auto guns WHICH ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL IN MANY PARTS OF THE USA !

i would full expect that colts historians would rewwrite the facts to be a politically correct answer TODAY....and not acknowledge what they did back then.....thier writers...thier story.

to claim a "colt" is "better" followed by "AR type rifle meeting all government specs" shows how blind you are. first no ar is built to government spec......there are no government spec's for semi auto ONLY rifles of the m16 design.

to cliam that "colt" rifles are "better" than others is unproven bs by you period. the ar platform is a spec driven assembly of spec built parts. the specs drive the parts, the inspectors qualify the parts and for the most part the assembly is childs play. how about calling colt back and asking then how many parts on the 6920 are made in house, not a purchased subcontract part ?? upper? lower? bbl? carrier ? BOLT ??

my guess...NONE.

sorry you are just a BLIND colt fan with no FACTS to back up your claims.

mike in co

(PS UNCLE R and i are not the best of friends...if he agrees with me...you are in deep doo doo)

Mike,

Don't feel ashame that you don't know all there is to know about AR15/M16's. About the AR15 not being built to government specs is an incorrect statement. I believe Hunter is talking about the Colt AR15 LE6920 which is except for being semi auto is built to the same specs as the M4, with the cut step barrel to allow attachment of the grenade launcher. For your information these don't come off the regular civil assembly line. The are built special such as Hunter tried to tell you. At first they were regulated by the AWB law but that has been lifted in most all states. Some said that these fell into the hands of dealers who got them somehow, but Colt knows exactly where everyone of them goes. Colt is has released these for civilian sells and in fact has stepped up production to meet the demands. The receivers are marke Law Enforcement for sure, but may be marked for Military use also. They are indeed the top quality and top rates carbine.

Joe

[Hunter]

Mike, the Colt historian I spoke with does not work for Colt but is well versed in it's history.
So I still ask can you provide years? Model numbers? What of the SP 1 that was sold to civilians all day long.

I will tell you what, I will email General Keys and get his thoughts (I have met him several times and he is too honorable of a man to lie about anything, dispute that and we need to meet face to face).

Another fact you are mistaken is you cannot legally convert a semi automatic rifle to a fully automatic rifle for civilian ownership anywhere in the US, period.

Starmetal is correct the 6920 is built to government specs, so you say no semi automatic AR 15 is not built to government specs is again incorrect.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/Hunter1911/m4chart.gif

So as per your last posts I can see you have no clue what you are talking about and are just one of those who make up and spread false rumors to facilitate your own agenda. Shame on you for letting your bias (and unfounded) opinion getting in the way of the truth.
Having your own bad opinion is fine but to spread false information to those who seek help is wrong on so many levels.

[buckweet]

Some guys I know have AR's that don't have the free float tube, etc. and the rifles don't shoot anywhere near as accurately as a NM rifle.

The RR AR I own is one of my most accurate rifles, especially for large groups (20 rounds) shot fairly quickly. Their accuracy guarantee is 3/4 minute.

John



free float ? im not sure about that, my RR, has standard A2 handguards, shoots 1/2 at 100.

im happy with that, and i like the looks much better,

[GabbyM]

Colt management was more interested in busting it's union than anything else. So they saw eye to eye with the likes of Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama. Now some of you are thinking what? They are Union supporters. My answer to that would be ye old saying. With supporters like that who needs enemies. I wish I could say I am smart enough to see it all coming ahead of time. But looking at the outcomes of party politics over the last thirty-five years their plans seam as obvious as they are evil.

I've been employed buy a decent company which was targeted for buy out. Ingersoll Rand Corp bought the heavy equipment manufacturing company for the patents and name. Then moved production to a non union plant in Pennsylvania. They've not even been held responsible for cleaning up the former sight. The buildings steel beams and overhead cranes with floor space of around 29 acres was disassembled and moved to Japan. So now my 19 years of pension is frozen at what the dollar was worth ten years ago and I've another 13 years before retirement. Obama finishes off any value that had with his economic destruction plan. In all seriousness I figure I'll be lucky if a monthly pension check will by a single days grocery in 2022. When I may draw my first check.

Look past the rhetoric and see what their actions are doing to us. Then maybe their actions will be more transparent. After all they are smart people who get what they go after.

What I wonder about is how many of the Colt executives and their clan members now have financial interest in FN or one of the other scab companies that now have the federal contracts. At this point in my life I could really care less as it's kind of like counting the number of bullet holes in a corps to see how dead it is.

You'all can blame Colt for whatever you'd like. But I say put away that little half inch brush and start painting with a four inch using broader strokes.

I have a couple of old Colts. I relish them as a remembrance of days when a mans hard work gained him respect not scorn for being a chump for breaking a sweat.

I couldn't tell you if the Colt plant is even open anymore or if it's just another old name like Maytag which you still see but all the machines are made over seas with slave labor. Perhaps some Black Sunday I'll look ito it.

[GabbyM]

free float ? im not sure about that, my RR, has standard A2 handguards, shoots 1/2 at 100.

im happy with that, and i like the looks much better,

Free float helps if you want to use a tight sling hold position. Which about all high power shooters do. With the old Noodle barrel Vietnam era rifles, which I prefer. When you sling them you'll pull the shot off at least two MOA. You'll also get some vertical shift when using the as issued barrel clamp bi pod .
Depends upon what it's used for. I know I'd rather have a 6 ½ pound 20 inch barrel A1 than a 8 ½ pound 14 inch barrel M4 any day.

[RollerCam]

"I believe you have your facts confused. There has never been a time Colt did not sell to the general public, and that includes AR type rifles.

*******************

Colt Will Halt Sales of AR-15 Assault Rifle
By DOUGLAS JEHL, Times Staff Writer|March 16, 1989

WASHINGTON — "In the face of a widening revolt against deadly assault weapons, the nation's largest manufacturer of such rifles, Colt Industries, announced Wednesday that it will suspend commercial sales of its semiautomatic AR-15 rifle until the Bush Administration can decide whether the weapon should be outlawed..."

read more: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-16/news/mn-2136_1_assault-rifles

[Lloyd Smale]

wow those are good prices. They make a good gun to boot. If i didnt have so many allready id be all over one of those!
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=161

These are tough to beat for the money. All I have seen were new with minor cosmetic imperfections. Add a 22 conversion and you are in business.

[OD*]

RollerCam, thank you.

[mike in co]

Mike, the Colt historian I spoke with does not work for Colt but is well versed in it's history.
So I still ask can you provide years? Model numbers? What of the SP 1 that was sold to civilians all day long.

I will tell you what, I will email General Keys and get his thoughts (I have met him several times and he is too honorable of a man to lie about anything, dispute that and we need to meet face to face).

Another fact you are mistaken is you cannot legally convert a semi automatic rifle to a fully automatic rifle for civilian ownership anywhere in the US, period.

Starmetal is correct the 6920 is built to government specs, so you say no semi automatic AR 15 is not built to government specs is again incorrect.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/Hunter1911/m4chart.gif

So as per your last posts I can see you have no clue what you are talking about and are just one of those who make up and spread false rumors to facilitate your own agenda. Shame on you for letting your bias (and unfounded) opinion getting in the way of the truth.
Having your own bad opinion is fine but to spread false information to those who seek help is wrong on so many levels.

simple question: please provide the mil spec number for the govermment spec for colt SEMI AUTO ONLY 6920 rifle ?
now who is the liar ?
i have provide you with facts, you have ignored them.
you accept colts version of why parts changed
( why is it ONLY colt changed those parts..no one else...see a trend ??)

you did not answer my question on who actually makes colt parts ?

others have now furnished support for my statements( and it is not the temp stopages from '89)

your own signature line shows your blinded to the facts approach to anything colt.

ARE YOU ACTUALLY OLD ENOUGH to rememer ? you never said how old you are ??

people who blindly follow a cause without an open mind are doomed to fail....

mike in co

[OD*]

( and it is not the temp stopages from '89)Then provide us with the details, please.

[StarMetal]

mike read this:

http://70.85.195.205/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15347

esp this paragraph: The firearms companies joining in the suit are Beretta U.S.A. Corp., Browning Arms, Inc., Colt's Manufacturing, Inc., Glock, Inc., SIG Arms, Inc., Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc., and Taurus International Manufacturing, Inc

Then read this:

http://economics.gmu.edu/wew/articles/00/arms.html

Seems many of the gun companies do things that we don't like.

Joe

[OD*]

Joe please, don't confuse the issue with facts! ;)

[StarMetal]

simple question: please provide the mil spec number for the govermment spec for colt SEMI AUTO ONLY 6920 rifle ?
now who is the liar ?
i have provide you with facts, you have ignored them.
you accept colts version of why parts changed
( why is it ONLY colt changed those parts..no one else...see a trend ??)

you did not answer my question on who actually makes colt parts ?

others have now furnished support for my statements( and it is not the temp stopages from '89)

your own signature line shows your blinded to the facts approach to anything colt.

ARE YOU ACTUALLY OLD ENOUGH to rememer ? you never said how old you are ??

people who blindly follow a cause without an open mind are doomed to fail....

mike in co

Mike,

The first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging. Not you, you keep shoveling away. With that said tell me who made all the parts for the M1 Carbine???? Nobody made that rifle in it's entirely in their shop. In fact not many rifles were made totally in shop. Even commercial rifles. For years Ruger didn't make their own barrels. Bow out Mike, you're wrong on this one.

Joe

[Hunter]

Mike I am 36 years old. I have been writing for a gun magazine for about 4 years now and have plenty of experience in the field.
I know many folks at all the major gun manufacturers and they as well as the articles I have written can back up my unbiased.
I am a die hard Colt fan and I will be the first to say they have made mistakes and bad decisions. I am well aware they are far from perfect and when they mess up I can accept that with the hopes they will make it right.
Colt makes many of their own parts (again I have been to the factory 3 times and am planning a 4th).
I could care less of your opinion of me and I believe in the saying "give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves" This in which I believe you have done.
The fact no one else changed they are design is a moot point. The only thing the changes Colt did to their rifles were to prevent them from being illegally converted to fully automatic.
Also you failed to provide proof of your statements, no real dates or models.

[mike in co]

Mike I am 36 years old.

Also you failed to provide proof of your statements, no real dates or models.



one, you are just young enough to have never seen the FACTS first hand, so they do not exist....very funny.

two, every current colt made is proof, you, have again, chosen to ignore facts and go with rewritten history.

three, i have never been on a sheep ranch, so not likely that i am full of sheep dip.

four.....no insults, just facts. the fact that you are a writer puts you in a catagory that is not believed by free thinking people with brains and an open mind.....a group you are not in.

mike in co

[mike in co]

apparently i am off on the time frame. i thought early 80's but was later. the reference to colt stopping sales is the begining of the changes.

"Beware the Ides of March"

"March 15, 1989, a day that will live in infamy. President
George Bush at the urging of his Drug Czar William Bennet,
temporary bans the import of more than 40 semi-auto rifles.
Colt Industries withdraws from public sale all versions of
the AR-15, in support of the President. So it began.

Early in 1990 Colt Firearms Division is purchased from Colt
Industries by the C.F. Holding Crop. The company name is
changed to Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc.(C.M.C.).
C.M.C. reintroduces a modified version of the AR-15. The
rifles are no longer call by the AR-15 name, but are referred
to as Sporter. The Sporter differs from the AR-15 in that it
has no bayonet lug."

and from there lower trigger blocks....and....and....

you do not think it odd, that only colt, and no other commercial ar maker, changed thier basic design ? that only colt had military contracts ? and that this design change happened at this time ??

open your mind, see the facts....get out of orwellean 1984.

its not a consiracy..its just facts.

"ar" is a trade mark of armalite . they have at times forced companies to honor thier trade mark. so colt does not have ar's, stag sells "model"'s, etc,

mike in co

[OD*]

Colt Defense still calls them ARs, they still have the bayonet lug.
http://colt.com/

Colt's Manufacturing Company calls their line Sporters.
http://www.coltsmfg.com/products-c6-q9-Colt_Rifles.aspx

The trademark "AR15" or "AR-15" is registered to Colt Industries.

[Hunter]

Colt bought the right to use the AR from Armalite when Armalite could not sell the rifle.

So if it happened before I was born does that mean I could not be privy to information. Here in NC we right down stuff that happens and others learn from it.

Could you explain your statement "every current colt made is proof, you, have again, chosen to ignore facts and go with rewritten history"
If their current line of firearms are poorly built then they have more than I fooled. The fact is Colt sells every firearm they build and they have a backlog so again you are wrong.

The fact that I am a writer means I do get to see a lot of the goings on. I am unbiased as I have written good and bad reviews.

You continue to insult me by saying I am not in a group free thinking people believe in. That tells me that you are attacking me instead of the argument. I am getting tired of the insults, really.

I have gotten some background on you and that further explains why you are the way you are. So if you cannot add any thing else factual I believe it best you leave this alone.

[waksupi]

The next post that appears in this thread that even vaguely LOOKS like a personal attack, this thread will disappear, and the offending party will be soundly spanked.

[mike in co]

Then provide us with the details, please.


i errored...it did start with the ban, but the changes to the guns came right after...



mike in co

[mike in co]

Colt Defense still calls them ARs, they still have the bayonet lug.
http://colt.com/

Colt's Manufacturing Company calls their line Sporters.
http://www.coltsmfg.com/products-c6-q9-Colt_Rifles.aspx

The trademark "AR15" or "AR-15" is registered to Colt Industries.


yes but ar belongs to armalite...like i said.....ar= armailte rifle

[mike in co]

Mike,

The first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging. Not you, you keep shoveling away. With that said tell me who made all the parts for the M1 Carbine???? Nobody made that rifle in it's entirely in their shop. In fact not many rifles were made totally in shop. Even commercial rifles. For years Ruger didn't make their own barrels. Bow out Mike, you're wrong on this one.

Joe

joe, i am in error of the dates, but not wrong on what i said.


there is no government spec for a semi auto only ar PERIOD.

the gun may be assembled with spec parts( as are most ar's) but it is NOT a mil spec rifle.

mike in co

[mike in co]

mike read this:

http://70.85.195.205/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15347

esp this paragraph: The firearms companies joining in the suit are Beretta U.S.A. Corp., Browning Arms, Inc., Colt's Manufacturing, Inc., Glock, Inc., SIG Arms, Inc., Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc., and Taurus International Manufacturing, Inc

Then read this:

http://economics.gmu.edu/wew/articles/00/arms.html

Seems many of the gun companies do things that we don't like.

Joe




sorry joe it does not apply to the ar issue we speak of.
this was a back door attempt by HUD to controll guns......and it failed , which it should have.

mike in co

[mike in co]

Again, incorrect information.
The rifles that were marked LEO only were prohibited by the AWB, Colt had nothing to do with this.
They had a separate line of AR type rifles that met the AWB's provisions in order to continue to sell to the public.
Once the AWB expired the LEO only rifles were legally available to the public.

Before you begin to pass rumors maybe you should get your facts straight huh??


just to make sure you see it:

March 15, 1989, a day that will live in infamy. President
George Bush at the urging of his Drug Czar William Bennet,
temporary bans the import of more than 40 semi-auto rifles.
Colt Industries withdraws from public sale all versions of
the AR-15, in support of the President. So it began.

[OD*]

yes but ar belongs to armalite...like i said.....ar= armailte rifleLike I said, AR15 belongs to Colt, otherwise Armalite would not call them M-15, on their other models they can use AR, they cannot use it on the 15s.

[mike in co]

Like I said, AR15 belongs to Colt, otherwise Armalite would not call them M-15, on their other models they can use AR, they cannot use it on the 15s.
me thinks we are in agreement...
lol
mike in co

[StarMetal]

sorry joe it does not apply to the ar issue we speak of.
this was a back door attempt by HUD to controll guns......and it failed , which it should have.

mike in co

mike,

I was just pointing out that Colt has changed. They took a stand against gun control in those old articles.

Joe

[buckweet]

[QUOTE=Ctkelly;692763]CMMG is a big player in the Ar market. They do manufacture their lowers for sure, maybe uppers too and sell them to other companies...I hesitate to say smaller companies because rock river doesnt even manufacture their parts. CMMG's barrels are made from 4150 steel which has more carbon and is harder to machine than the typical 4140 barrels out there. They also have true M4 feed ramps. I dont think you can go wrong with one.

I owned a RRA for several years until I just recently sold it (like, last week recent). Never did have a problem with it...just didnt shoot it that often and .223 is no longer "cheap" to blaze through like it once was. One thing I liked about RRA was almost all of them came with two stage national match triggers.





i love my rock river two stage. just love it.

[beercamel]

I have two of these rifles... They are NEW and function great.. good Quality...

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/DEL-TON_DTI-4_.223_5.56_Rifle.html