PPCBs Will Lead The Way, As It Were

[Zeek]

It used to be pretty cool to fiddle with lube-grooved boolits, but you needed gas checks (GCs) to get over ~1600 fps, but, even with the GCs, you then faced (Veral's treatise notwithstanding) a practical MV-barrier of ~2100 fps for easy accuracy, so you moved towards waaaaay-heavy-for-the-chambering boolits to help make up for it. THAT was THEN, and THIS is NOW! Enter the world of GC's at nearly $40 a box, for larger calibers!!! Sunken ditch!!!

Well! If it is going to be like THAT, then WHERE is the average lead-head going to go? You've got it ~~~> they are going to start paper-patching, at which point, they can add LOTS of MV onto the envelope, never buy another GC, have damn-good accuracy, and have terminal performance that is as they choose. Examples: Cast or HTreat to >25 Bh, and you have a lovely varmint boolit. Cast (no HTreat) using 50/50 lead/(WW+Sn) alloy, and it will expand VERY nicely, even at elevated impact velocities.

From my viewpoint, when it comes to practical CB usage, PPCBs seem to be "where the action is heading." It will not surprise me if others make this conclusion too, in due time. So, keep up the damn-good work, y'awl, 'cause I believe we are going to have company for dinner!
Regards, Zeek

[Nrut]

Zeek..
As the Mennonite logging truck drivers up here say.. Yep, yep to that!........[smilie=l:
Has your NEI #86B .318 mold showed up yet? Post it's as cast dia. when you get the chance.. I would like one slightly fatter say around .320 to be safe and a small maplat like #86B so it will feed..#93A looks like a good canidate except for that large grease groove..
Sacramento eh?.. born in Chico
Oh and keep your font right there.. I can read it...:smile:

[yondering]

Amen Zeek. I've come to the same conclusion, for my rifle boolits anyhow. Paper seems to have lots of advantages, with few drawbacks if done right. I love the bright clean bore, no leading whatsoever, and complete lack of mess. I'm even patching my low velocity (1000 fps) loads now, just cause it's so easy and accuracy is so much better. For the full power stuff, I'm getting 200-300 fps faster than equivalent weight jacketed bullets. Try beating that with a gas check boolit!

FWIW I'm patching regular grease groove boolits, full diameter, then sizing back down to groove diameter +.001"

[303Guy]

Yondering

When you say then sizing back down to groove diameter +.001", do you mean groove diameter?

I'm getting 200-300 fps faster than equivalent weight jacketed bullets.Is that with the same powder charge or loading up to the 'same' pressure?

[yondering]

Yondering

When you say then sizing back down to groove diameter +.001", do you mean groove diameter?

Yes, groove diameter of the barrel, + .001", same as we do with cast boolits. My Whelen barrel slugs at .358", I size my paper patch boolits back down to .359" after patching. I use case sizing wax, not alox or some other grease/lube.



Is that with the same powder charge or loading up to the 'same' pressure?

"same" pressure. I'm using the same cases, primers, and powder, and working up until I get pressure signs. It does require a little more powder to get there. Or, using my Whelen for example again, I'm able to push a 250gr paper patched boolit to the same velocity (2650fps) as a 225gr jacketed boolit, using the same powder charge (62gr Rl 15). This load with the jacketed boolit is max pressure in my gun, but the paper patch load is not.

[pdawg_shooter]

When I discovered PPing back in the 60s it was my way of making .318 dia. jacketed bullets for a pre-war Mauser. Now, all my lead bullets froma a rifle are patched. Jacketed bullet performance from cast lead. If you match the BHN to the velocity you will never need a jacketed bullet again. One exception, for me anyway, is 25 cal and smaller. My old fingers just wont handle them. 500 22 cals for a day of prairie dog shooting is just beyond my limits.

[1874Sharps]

Paper patch bullets -- they are the bullets that conjure images of buffalo hunters of the 1870s “rolling their own” in camp after a day of shooting. This technology is described in patents as early as 1870 and is still a great technology. In fact, all the major armies of the world of that era with the exception of the US used paper patch bullets in their ammunition. The Sharps Rifle Co. back in the day sold mostly paper patch ammo. There was good reason for this wide-spread use.
Paper patch bullets offer several advantages over comparable conventional grease groove bullets:
1. Paper patch bullets have smooth sides and therefore have a higher ballistic coefficient.
2. Paper patch bullets generally produce lower chamber pressures than grease grooved bullets of equal weight.
3. The paper patch polishes and burnishes the bore of the rifle removing tool marks and making clean-up (especially when shooting with black powder) much easier.
4. Bullets may be rolled with thinner or thicker paper, thus allowing the hand loader to custom fit the bullet to a non-standard bore, as is often found in antique rifles such as the 1873 Springfield.

I think you are right about this old technology being the wave of the future! As J-bullets keep getting more expensive it is a great thing to be able to make your own PP boolits that will perform comparably!

[CJR]

I've never PPCB, but I've loaded a bunch of standard CB. The old NRA articles, on PPCB, basically described specially made bullet designs for PP. I take it , from this discussion, that standard CB designs can be PP, then resized and reloaded. Is that a correct assumption or do we still to use the special PPCB designs?

Best regards,

CJR

[docone31]

I use conventional molds, Lee in specific. I size them down, and patch them up.
Works for me.

[CJR]

Docone31,

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. What's the highest velocity that anyone here has shot a PPCB? Likewise, what kind of consistent groups can be expected at the higher velocities? I know the NRA talked about approaching 3000 fps, but was that wishful thinking?

I think I'm going to give this PPCB a whirl.

Best regards,

CJR

[1874Sharps]

CJR,

Caution: If you try paper patching you just might get hooked like I did! I actually have found paper patching in both 45-70 BPCR and several 30 caliber cartridges both accurate and effective.

[docone31]

With my .308, and .303 British, I approach listed 2600fps.

[bcp477]

Gee, I'm proud to be such a "trendsetter"......... helping to set a "new" trend.....which is 100 + year-old technology. :veryconfu..........:mrgreen: The irony of it all is just hilarious, isn't it ?

Actually, I got into paper patching specifically because of the COST of jacketed bullets...... and also the COST of gas-checks. So, ultimately, I hope that our efforts, in part, serve as a "stick in the eye" to the manufacturers of jacketed bullets and gas-checks. If that ever happens, then demand for them will drop.....and they will have to cut prices. However, I doubt that I will EVER buy another jacketed bullet, regardless.

[yondering]

I take it , from this discussion, that standard CB designs can be PP, then resized and reloaded. Is that a correct assumption or do we still to use the special PPCB designs?


Yes, standard grease groove or tumble lube designs work just fine. If you're already casting for a particular rifle caliber, the only extra equipment you need is some paper, scissors, a flat surface, and a small bowl of water. I use ordinary printer paper.

[pdawg_shooter]

Docone31,

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. What's the highest velocity that anyone here has shot a PPCB? Likewise, what kind of consistent groups can be expected at the higher velocities? I know the NRA talked about approaching 3000 fps, but was that wishful thinking?

I think I'm going to give this PPCB a whirl.

Best regards,

CJR

I have taken a PP 30cal bullet to 3000fps. See earlier post. The bis secrete is to match the BHN of your alloy to the velocity you use.

[Zeek]

Zeek..
As the Mennonite logging truck drivers up here say.. Yep, yep to that!........[smilie=l:
Has your NEI #86B .318 mold showed up yet? Post it's as cast dia. when you get the chance.. I would like one slightly fatter say around .320 to be safe and a small maplat like #86B so it will feed..#93A looks like a good canidate except for that large grease groove..
Sacramento eh?.. born in Chico
Oh and keep your font right there.. I can read it...:smile:
Dear Nrut: I do not have an NEI #86B and have not contacted Joel about ordering one, but, just a couple of days ago, while riding the rail on the way home from work, I was drooling my way through the NEI catalog again and it occurred to me that this would be an ideal PPCB core for 8mm Mauser. So, you can imagine how spooky it is to hear you talking about it as if it were on the way! Mah!!!

BTW, NEI moulds run -0.000"/+0.002", relative to nominal diameter, so this one could be anywhere from 0.318" to 0.320" on the bands.

Yes, their #93A would be another sweetie-pie, but might need some sizing-down before-and/or-after wrapping (the sharp rear-of-leade-cone diameter is just 0.327", in my M98, and CAN be as small as 0.324"!!). The CB's grooves don't bother me at all ~~~> pick your forward groove and then stick the front end of your patch into it and, SHAZAYUM!, it won't catch on the 8mm Mauser's horribly-sharp chamberneck-to-leade-cone transition step any more. Second good thing about it is that it has no cylindrical nose to fiddle with . . . . it is a one-diameter Loverin-type, which is PERFECT for the 8mm Mauser's waaaaay-shallow leade cone (less than half a degree per side).

Me? Born in Sandy Eggo and now working for the State in Sack-O-Tomaters.
Regards, Zeek

[6.5 mike]

CJR- HI, I started out patching to fit a boolit to an odd bore size FN 7m/m, then a 303 SAV, (now 2 ), & after making the mistake of just checking the price of gas checks, looks like all the rest.
Like Docone 31 I use convetional moulds (all lee, all I have). Some I size first, others get sized after they are wrapped. I let the barrel tell me what it needs & go from there.
Be careful though, as 1874 Sharps pointed out, this can become addicting. Try it & see for yourself.

[Digital Dan]

Docone31,

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. What's the highest velocity that anyone here has shot a PPCB? Likewise, what kind of consistent groups can be expected at the higher velocities? I know the NRA talked about approaching 3000 fps, but was that wishful thinking?

I think I'm going to give this PPCB a whirl.

Best regards,

CJR

2400 fps with a patched round ball in a .44 mag rifle. It didn't hit the Chrony...or the target.

[big boar]

Yondering, for your 35 Whelen, would you size down to .351 (+.001 over bore) and then patch to .359? I've got a 450 Marlin and want to try patching a RCBS 45-405FN. Should I size to about .451 and patch to .459? Does that make sense?

[yondering]

Yondering, for your 35 Whelen, would you size down to .351 (+.001 over bore) and then patch to .359? I've got a 450 Marlin and want to try patching a RCBS 45-405FN. Should I size to about .451 and patch to .459? Does that make sense?

No. Patch them as-cast, then size down. This compresses the paper to a hard jacket that is more durable and better able to grip the rifling. Don't lube the paper for sizing either. You can apply a small amount of case sizing wax (Imperial or Hornady), but do not use alox or anything that will soak into the paper. The paper needs to be dry to compress properly.

Paper is pretty soft and flimsy as-is, but will compress into a hard mass that is much tougher. Sizing the bare casting down first is a step backwards, IMO.

[windrider919]

There are exceptions. If you have an excessively large throat vs the bore many shooters find that patching to fit the throat, not the bore gives the best accuracy.

And example is my .458 which has the unfortunate standard .464 throat. I get my best accuracy from a .454 bullet patched + .008 to .462/3. I do not size at all, just cast n roll. However, until I stopped sizing my brass I did not get the best accuracy. when I sized the case and then used the expander ball the case tension was actually sizing/crushing the bullet down inside the case neck (pulled and miked the section inside the case neck had been squeezed to .448) and I got a lot of torn and slipping patches. So using a modified/honed sizing die I size the case to have an ID of .457 and the bullets seat with only rare patch damage and better accuracy.

Shooting this 'oversize' bullet gives no excessive pressure signs till way above the load for the same weight jacketed bullet. The paper just compresses down as necessary.

The fastest, verified with chronograph, load I have shot is a 460gr WW+5%tin, water dropped PP .458 Win Mag at 3350 FPS. "+ P", MAX load, very (but not totally) flat primers. No leading but as I was blacking out for a second at each shot and after the 4th shot I had to quit due to the massive headache I had developed. Later a medical friend told me I had probably bruised my brain as it slammed into the inside of my skull during each shot. Only the first shot hit the 8 X 11 paper at 100 yds, the others did hit the 2 ft X 2 Ft plywood target stand. Using the same bullet and shooting at 1800FPS the rifle and I can keep the group inside 1" usually and I can shoot 50 rounds happily. Accuracy over velocity any day!

[pdawg_shooter]

I managed to push a 430gn PP to 2605fps in my .458 and had to quit there. No pressure indicators but it was starting to HURT! Decided if I couldnt get it done there I would let someone else shoot it.

[Zeek]

2400 fps with a patched round ball in a .44 mag rifle. It didn't hit the Chrony...or the target.
The last Tennessee-style flintlock rifle I made was for 25 caliber balls (#5 soft lead buckshot = 0.250" diameter), and it likes (actually, demands) a patched ball MV of 2150 fps. Shoots great at THAT MV. It is down to the speed of sound at ~45 yards, so should do fine on tree squirrels, so long as they are well up the tree!
Neat barrel, custom made by Bill Moody: wide, radius grooves with radius transition to the very thin lands; 1:25" twist; loads easily with a 20 grain charge of 3F; 0.017" patch; ~0.012" groove depth (groove diameter is 0.024" more than the 0.250" bore diameter).
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/wosikae/25Tenn/Moon_1SML.jpg
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/wosikae/25Tenn/WholeSML.jpg
Zeek