The load/speed/deer

[Mark Daiute]

I had great fun shooting my 03 Springfield today with 13 grain loads of Unique. I was shooting Lee's 180 grain boolit cast from wheelweights.

Has anyone chronographed that load in that rifle?

I'm going way out on a limb here and opening myself up but- Would that load be sufficient for deer out to 50 yards with an absolute maximum of 100 yards? The woods are thick here and most shots are 50 yards and under

Thanks,

Mark

[Mausermeister]

I would think it more than adequate. I've killed deer out to 200 yards with my 300 whisper shooting sud-sonic 200 grain j pills.

[Mark Daiute]

Thanks for the reply!

Going out on another limb and exposing my ignorance- what's a 300 whisper and at how many fps do bullets go sub-sonic?

Best,

Mark

[zomby woof]

With that boolit, I got 1550 with 14 grains and 1582 with 14.5 grains of unique out of my 03A3. I'm guessing you'd be around 1500 fps with 13.

It grouped very well at 200.

[Mausermeister]

Thanks for the reply!

Going out on another limb and exposing my ignorance- what's a 300 whisper and at how many fps do bullets go sub-sonic?

Best,

Mark
It's a .223 case shortened and necked to .30 cal.
The speed of sound is generally around 1100 fps, but it does vary with temperature.

[Bret4207]

In the 308 with a 190 gr boolit I'm right around 1600 fps with 13.0 Red Dot. I would think the '06 would be a little slower due to the larger case, but guns vary so much it's hard to say. Using a 180 gr boolit at that speed takes you way beyond 32-40, 38-40, 44-40 territory and they worked well at short range.

[bcp477]

As others have said, your velocity is probably acceptable - as long as you STAY within the distance parameters you've stated. However, it can be said that such a load IS marginal. I wrestled with the same issue, when I began shooting cast bullets some time ago. I've never cared about having a "barn burner" cartridge - in fact, I've always said that I'd much rather load only as hot as needed for the job at hand - no hotter. However, in the end I balked at deer hunting with such a marginal load. I finally decided that I wanted a bit of a cushion - and about 2000 fps, with a 175 grain bullet seemed enough. So, rather than stay with fast pistol and shotshell powders, which offer easy low velocity loading (and are easy to work with), I realised that I'd need to go back to rifle powders. In the end, what I came up with is light to moderate loads of fairly fast to medium range RIFLE powders (much slower than pistol powders) with dacron or cotton filler to take up the empty space in the cases.

Now, I shoot a 174 - 175 grain, paper-patched cast bullet....with 32.5 grains of Hodgdon Benchmark and around 0.5 grains of cotton wool filler..... for about 2000 fps from my 18" barrel (8 x 57 cartridge.....quite similar to the 30-06). I am fully confident with this load, out to 150 - 175 yards (I won't shoot deer further than that). I am just saying that you might, for future all around use, want to consider some other alternatives than the very light loads with pistol powders. They are easy to do....and good for punching paper, no doubt....but rather limited beyond that.

Just a thought.

[Beekeeper]

mausermeister,
If I may ask you a question about your wisper?
How do you get your cartridge to chamber (ie: .223 cartridge necked up to .30 cal)
Seems to me to be a little big on the cartridge end!
Just asking as I have thought about making a whisper a few times.


Jim

[BruceB]

Gentlemen, gentlemen!

This discussion is centered around HUNTING, which means the shooting of living creatures. If one KNOWS a load is, or is possibly, "marginal", then why in blue blazes is that load even under consideration?

The hunter cannot predict what sort of conditions will apply for his shot, or even more importantly, after the first shot. If the case capacity exists for a more-powerful load than the one described as "marginal", then USE that capacity to generate the power and trajectory that will take the load out of the "marginal" category!

bcp is dead-on....the figures he lays out are in fact those those of the .30-30 factory load, and nobody can say that a .30-30 is marginal for deer. A bullet that will expand, combined with the 2000 fps velocity, is a deadly combination.

For my part, I prefer a heavier bullet. Hunting accuracy is fairly easy to achieve at 2000 fps with most cast-bullet rifles, at least those in my rack. The .45-70 rifles are fine hunting tools, but reaching 200 yards with a 400-grain bullet departing at 2000 fps is pretty strenuous on the shooter, and still requires a rather high trajectory. Therefore, I use the 365-grain RCBS bullet in the .416. this gives a very reasonable trajectory to 200 with a 150-yard zero, and there's nothing "marginal" about the load for any animal in North America.

If ONLY deer are on the target list, I'll use the .338 with 220-plus grains, or .35 Remington with 200 grains. Either will be driven as fast as I possibly can while retaining decent accuracy.

I want nothing to do with "marginal" when it comes to shooting animals. They deserve better.

[StarMetal]

It's a .223 case shortened and necked to .30 cal.
The speed of sound is generally around 1100 fps, but it does vary with temperature.

Actually to be more accurate the 300 Whisper was based on the 221 Fireball case necked up. So any of that family cases will work.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Gentlemen, gentlemen!

This discussion is centered around HUNTING, which means the shooting of living creatures. If one KNOWS a load is, or is possibly, "marginal", then why in blue blazes is that load even under consideration?

The hunter cannot predict what sort of conditions will apply for his shot, or even more importantly, after the first shot. If the case capacity exists for a more-powerful load than the one described as "marginal", then USE that capacity to generate the power and trajectory that will take the load out of the "marginal" category!

bcp is dead-on....the figures he lays out are in fact those those of the .30-30 factory load, and nobody can say that a .30-30 is marginal for deer. A bullet that will expand, combined with the 2000 fps velocity, is a deadly combination.

For my part, I prefer a heavier bullet. Hunting accuracy is fairly easy to achieve at 2000 fps with most cast-bullet rifles, at least those in my rack. The .45-70 rifles are fine hunting tools, but reaching 200 yards with a 400-grain bullet departing at 2000 fps is pretty strenuous on the shooter, and still requires a rather high trajectory. Therefore, I use the 365-grain RCBS bullet in the .416. this gives a very reasonable trajectory to 200 with a 150-yard zero, and there's nothing "marginal" about the load for any animal in North America.

If ONLY deer are on the target list, I'll use the .338 with 220-plus grains, or .35 Remington with 200 grains. Either will be driven as fast as I possibly can while retaining decent accuracy.

I want nothing to do with "marginal" when it comes to shooting animals. They deserve better.

Bruce,

I have to disagree with your opinion of the 300 Whisper, not your hunting ethics.
The subsonic 300 Whisper can place an impressive amount of energy and penetration onto a target with very little sound. This makes it ideal for removing sentries, both four legged and two, as well as the selective destruction of high value equipment like radar arrays, aircraft and high ranking officers in a more discrete manner. The small size and portability of a weapon like the Covert Whisper makes it is easy to carry into combat without interfering with other equipment or weapons.
In an insurgency type campaign such a weapon would be most useful for special-forces, non-overt government agents or other less conspicuous troops or operators, who may have to use non-issue gear to enable them move around unobtrusively within a local population that may be hiding enemy combatants.

Also the Whisper's performance with lighter bullets looks much different then it's subsonic heavy bullet.


Apparently the military thinks it's good enough for human targets. Maybe you should try a Whisper before you run it down.


Joe

[Mausermeister]

mausermeister,
If I may ask you a question about your wisper?
How do you get your cartridge to chamber (ie: .223 cartridge necked up to .30 cal)
Seems to me to be a little big on the cartridge end!
Just asking as I have thought about making a whisper a few times.


Jim
You use a .30 cal barrel blank, or in my case a Savage .308 barrel that's been cut and chambered. The Savage barrel has 1:10 twist and will stabilize 180 to 200 gr bullets subsonic. Some folks use faster twist blanks and go up to 240 gr bullets.


Actually to be more accurate the 300 Whisper was based on the 221 Fireball case necked up. So any of that family cases will work.

Joe
Yes, it was originally developed using the .221 fireball case, but most folks use .223 brass because it is readily available. Of course any similar case would work.
I've often thought the .30 Mauser case would be perfect to build an integrally suppressed gun around, but I have enough projects to keep me busy for now.

[Rocky Raab]

This "Whisper" tangent probably ought to be in a separate thread. But I will point out that the goal of a military round is NOT a clean kill. A disabling wound is what they want - because it takes up to six people out of action to care for one wounded, but a KIA takes nobody else out of combat. Hunting has the opposite goal: a clean kill every time, preferably with one shot.


Back on topic. "THE Load" as described by Ed Harris is 13.0 of RedDot, not Unique. In my articles, I describe what I call the "Universal 30" load which does use Unique, but coupled with a very light Plinker bullet.

I agree with those who opine the load as described in the OP is marginal at best for deer. I also would prefer a 30-30 equivalent load of at least a 150-gr bullet at a minimum of 2000 fps. Such loads are very easy to build using powders from 2400 at the fast end to the full spectrum of rifle propellants. Accurate 5744, H4198, RL-7, Benchmark, H-322, 3031, W748 and several more are highly suitable, as are slower powders like the classic 4895.

[StarMetal]

This "Whisper" tangent probably ought to be in a separate thread. But I will point out that the goal of a military round is NOT a clean kill. A disabling wound is what they want - because it takes up to six people out of action to care for one wounded, but a KIA takes nobody else out of combat. Hunting has the opposite goal: a clean kill every time, preferably with one shot.


Back on topic. "THE Load" as described by Ed Harris is 13.0 of RedDot, not Unique. In my articles, I describe what I call the "Universal 30" load which does use Unique, but coupled with a very light Plinker bullet.

I agree with those who opine the load as described in the OP is marginal at best for deer. I also would prefer a 30-30 equivalent load of at least a 150-gr bullet at a minimum of 2000 fps. Such loads are very easy to build using powders from 2400 at the fast end to the full spectrum of rifle propellants. Accurate 5744, H4198, RL-7, Benchmark, H-322, 3031, W748 and several more are highly suitable, as are slower powders like the classic 4895.


Whoa Rocky, hold on. The Whisper wasn't designed as a military round, it was designed as a special round for certain military applications. You are wrong about taking out sentries. It's to kill them, not wound them. Let me further expand on that. Silencers are used so nobody is aware of what is going on. If you just would a sentry he still may be able to cry out for hurt or alert everyone else somehow.

Joe
P.S. Before some get the wrong idea, I'm not advocating the Whisper for hunting, but pointing out it's more lethal then some may think.

[BruceB]

Joe;

I am not referring specifically to the Whisper or similar cartridges. I AM referring to ANY load which is, as stated, "marginal".

The Whispers were a military concept which were intended for the purposes which you outlined very nicely, and the concept works just fine.

Like many military concepts, they've spun-off into the civilian world where their utility in some cases is excellent, but not-so-great in other ways. As its name implies, the Whisper's main purpose is STEALTH, not ballistic performance of the sort expected of hunting rounds.

For hunting, I hold to my opinion that we owe it to our prey to use the most-effective loads we can make or buy. If loading our beloved cast bullets for hunting, some severe conditions must be met before the load can approach a reasonable level of efficiency. It doesn't matter what CASE launches the bullet, be it Whisper or Ultra Mag, as long as the terminal effect is reliably deadly.

I can distill MY requirements for a cast-bullet (deer-and-larger) hunting load to this: minimum weight of 200 grains of EXPANDING lead travelling at 2000 fps. Mo' is bettah. This is a largely-theoretical opinion of mine, because the cast bullets I've fired into moose and bison came from .44 handguns. However, I've killed (and seen killed) plenty-enough critters to formulate my *opinion* with confidence. My .416 was loaded with a two-alloy cast softpoint the last time I took it after elk, but no such animals were willing to supply the test environment. Rats. I intend to hunt with this load again, hopefully with something to report afterward.

[StarMetal]

Joe;

I am not referring specifically to the Whisper or similar cartridges. I AM referring to ANY load which is, as stated, "marginal".

The Whispers were a military concept which were intended for the purposes which you outlined very nicely, and the concept works just fine.

Like many military concepts, they've spun-off into the civilian world where their utility in some cases is excellent, but not-so-great in other ways. As its name implies, the Whisper's main purpose is STEALTH, not ballistic performance of the sort expected of hunting rounds.

For hunting, I hold to my opinion that we owe it to our prey to use the most-effective loads we can make or buy. If loading our beloved cast bullets for hunting, some severe conditions must be met before the load can approach a reasonable level of efficiency. It doesn't matter what CASE launches the bullet, be it Whisper or Ultra Mag, as long as the terminal effect is reliably deadly.

I can distill MY requirements for a cast-bullet (deer-and-larger) hunting load to this: minimum weight of 200 grains of EXPANDING lead travelling at 2000 fps. Mo' is bettah. This is a largely-theoretical opinion of mine, because the cast bullets I've fired into moose and bison came from .44 handguns. However, I've killed (and seen killed) plenty-enough critters to formulate my *opinion* with confidence. My .416 was loaded with a two-alloy cast softpoint the last time I took it after elk, but no such animals were willing to supply the test environment. Rats. I intend to hunt with this load again, hopefully with something to report afterward.

Bruce,

Agreed...if I have a safe full of rifles I wouldn't select the Whisper as my go to deer rifle. I just wanted to point out it's more lethal then it seems. Also when it's not subsonic with the big heavy bullets, it's even more presentable as the velocity climbs much with the lighter bullets.

We do owe the animal respect in how we harvest them.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Joe
Did you know the Britts used the 45 acp silenced for the same purpose? They used a carbine length Enfield with silencer and subsonic ammo. We have one here minus the silencer. The Whisper would likely add a bit of range to the 45 but within 100 yards the 45 is perty effective. No problem making head shots at that range. I have some articles about the Britt guns in use and it is stated that the loudest sound was the sound uf the bullet hitting the target. In that case if there are multiple targets in close proxcimity they must be engauged simultaniously as was done with the Somolly pirate situation recently. They train for this type of shooting, to shoot on que and neutralise multiple targets with seamingly one shot.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Joe
Did you know the Britts used the 45 acp silenced for the same purpose? They used a carbine length Enfield with silencer and subsonic ammo. We have one here minus the silencer. The Whisper would likely add a bit of range to the 45 but within 100 yards the 45 is perty effective. No problem making head shots at that range. I have some articles about the Britt guns in use and it is stated that the loudest sound was the sound uf the bullet hitting the target. In that case if there are multiple targets in close proxcimity they must be engauged simultaniously as was done with the Somolly pirate situation recently. They train for this type of shooting, to shoot on que and neutralise multiple targets with seamingly one shot.
BIC/BS

Dan,

Sure am aware of those. Then there was the single shot 9mm silenced pistol they used in WWII also.

I use to know Esau Verho personnally when he was a big wig with Sako. He told me once of a silenced 5.56 project Sako was undertaking one time. He said standing at the doorway of the shooting room, with the shooter just a short distance away shooting such weapon, that he didn't hear anything. They can be very quiet for sure.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Wouldnt the 300 whisper be similer in performance with like boolit/bullet weights to the 30 Herrett?
The Herrett was designed for hunting by two of the most respected (at least by me) men in their field at that time, Mr Bob Milek and Mr Steve Herrett.
They were level headed men that would detest some of the abominations used in short barrels today. They seemed to be the last of the practicle men the industry listend to.
When they passed the industry went to what ever would sell and the devil with practicality. Mr Milek and Mr Aagard were my favorit writers and as I see it they have not been replaced.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Wouldnt the 300 whisper be similer in performance with like boolit/bullet weights to the 30 Herrett?
The Herrett was designed for hunting by two of the most respected (at least by me) men in their field at that time, Mr Bob Milek and Mr Steve Herrett.
They were level headed men that would detest some of the abominations used in short barrels today. They seemed to be the last of the practicle men the industry listend to.
When they passed the industry went to what ever would sell and the devil with practicality. Mr Milek and Mr Aagard were my favorit writers and as I see it they have not been replaced.
BIC/BS

Yes Dan, they are very close. Just for data the 300 Whisper loaded with a 165 grain Speer BT can obtain 2000 fps out of a 14 inch Contender barrel. Doesn't sound so anemic for deer hunting now does it? Imagine a longer rifle barrel and different bullet weights.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

I totally agree with Bruce and bcp477. I believe I was involved in the original discusion bcp477 talks about and convinced him that "marginal" was only a step away from failure, much better to have that "cushion" that bruce talks about. We are supposed to be talking about hunting deer here anyways.

The talk of "sentry removal" with silenced weapons I find amusing. While laced with some truth most of it has been overly influenced by reading too much "OP - Center" type books or watching too many movies. I wonder how many who have not "been there" have any idea how loud a silenced bullet is when it hits meat, I wonder if they realize that "head shots" are mostly not instantly incapacitating and quiet, I wondier if they understand how much noise someone makes when they drop their weapon and fall down kicking and gurgling. Sentry removal must be done from a very close range and it is not clean, nor really "silent' as seen in the movies (neither is using a knife on sentries clean and/or quick as seen in the movies). An incapcitating shot can be done but it is a very, very precice shot that must be made with a low powered subsonic bullet even of .45 caliber. Then you still have the noise of the body falling, the weapon clanking, knocking over equipment etc. The "silent" removal of sentries only allows a little more time for the assault element (whether it is just you or others) to get closer to the objective before things get very noisy very fast. Yes silencers (actually suppressors is the better term) can be used effectively if you understand the limitations and the "results" of the shot and are prepared to deal with it. The masking of the "silenced" shot by other ambiant noise is best used but the least understood method. "Silent" in this context of "silenced" weapons is not really silent if not used correctly.

When hunting you do not have to be "silent" and "marginal" should not be considered regardless of choice of weapon (rifle, handgun or bow), "adequate" yes, "marginal" no.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I totally agree with Bruce and bcp477. I believe I was involved in the original discusion bcp477 talks about and convinced him that "marginal" was only a step away from failure, much better to have that "cushion" that bruce talks about. We are supposed to be talking about hunting deer here anyways.

The talk of "sentry removal" with silenced weapons I find amusing. While laced with some truth most of it has been overly influenced by reading too much "OP - Center" type books or watching too many movies. I wonder how many who have not "been there" have any idea how loud a silenced bullet is when it hits meat, I wonder if they realize that "head shots" are mostly not instantly incapacitating and quiet, I wondier if they understand how much noise someone makes when they drop their weapon and fall down kicking and gurgling. Sentry removal must be done from a very close range and it is not clean, nor really "silent' as seen in the movies (neither is using a knife on sentries clean and/or quick as seen in the movies). An incapcitating shot can be done but it is a very, very precice shot that must be made with a low powered subsonic bullet even of .45 caliber. Then you still have the noise of the body falling, the weapon clanking, knocking over equipment etc. The "silent" removal of sentries only allows a little more time for the assault element (whether it is just you or others) to get closer to the objective before things get very noisy very fast. Yes silencers (actually suppressors is the better term) can be used effectively if you understand the limitations and the "results" of the shot and are prepared to deal with it. The masking of the "silenced" shot by other ambiant noise is best used but the least understood method. "Silent" in this context of "silenced" weapons is not really silent if not used correctly.

When hunting you do not have to be "silent" and "marginal" should not be considered regardless of choice of weapon (rifle, handgun or bow), "adequate" yes, "marginal" no.

Larry Gibson

The thing is Larry that the 300 Whisper with bullets 165 grain and down are about the equal of 30-30 loads. You and Bruce are stuck on the heavy subsonic loads. I only made references about the subsonic loads as they can be and are lethal. Maybe the poster isn't talking about suppressed subsonic loads for deer hunting huh?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Quoting you; "The thing is Larry that the 300 Whisper with bullets 165 grain and down are about the equal of 30-30 loads. "

Now let me get this right; You're telling us the 300 Whisper is the equal of the 30-30 with 165 or less bullets? Well now Joe, if that is the case then once again I am plumb amazed by the depth, width and breadth of your knowledge. It is really news to me and I would have to definately be shown where the 300 whisper even comes close to the 30-30 with 165 gr or less bullets.

Quoting you again; "Maybe the poster isn't talking about suppressed subsonic loads for deer hunting huh?"

No Joe, once again you have taken things on a tangent. The question as posed by the originator of this thread, Mark Daiute, was if a Lee 180 gr bullet cast of WWs was good for deer hunting under his limited conditions. That is the topic of this thread, remember?

The "posters" who referenced the .300 whisper suppressed and other suppressed guns were refering to whether such was "marginal" or not for deer hunting. They were attempting to demonstrate that such a suppressed weapon then may be acceptable for deer hunting. If that suppressed 300 Whisper is the weapon of choice for deer hunting then one should load it to the maximum acceptable level and use it with in the limitations of the weapon/shooter. It is another matter to take a M1903A3 and load it down to a "marginal" level and then hunt deer with it. The rifle and cartridge are quite capable of much more than that. It is easily capable of driving that Lee 180 gr cast bullet to 2100 - 2200 fps with very acceptable deer hunting accuracy. That would be the best in my opinion. It also could be loaded down a bit to 1850-1900 fps for best accuracy and still be completely acceptable for Marks hunting conditions. However to drop that bullet down to 1400- to maybe 1600 fps puts it in the "marginal" range with such a rifle capable of much more is not reasonable to me. I stand by my original recomendation in my first post.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Quoting you; "The thing is Larry that the 300 Whisper with bullets 165 grain and down are about the equal of 30-30 loads. " Notice right there Mr Gibson the two word "are about". No where did I say it is the equal or surpasses the 30-30. Perhap you should take a look at the reloading data for the 300 Whisper and become enlightened.

Now let me get this right; You're telling us the 300 Whisper is the equal of the 30-30 with 165 or less bullets? Once again Mr Gibson notice the two words "are about". Well now Joe, if that is the case then once again I am plumb amazed by the depth, width and breadth of your knowledge. It is really news to me and I would have to definately be shown where the 300 whisper even comes close to the 30-30 with 165 gr or less bullets. Here's one: http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/supersonic.html
and http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotlongWhisper.htm Notice the second one is out of a 14 inch barrel.
Quoting you again; "Maybe the poster isn't talking about suppressed subsonic loads for deer hunting huh?"

No Joe, once again you have taken things on a tangent. The question as posed by the originator of this thread, Mark Daiute, was if a Lee 180 gr bullet cast of WWs was good for deer hunting under his limited conditions. That is the topic of this thread, remember? And we've seen the jacketed velocities that can be obtained and you know you can get faster out of cast, so his 180 grain cast can be the realm of deer hunting.....and you know it.

The "posters" who referenced the .300 whisper suppressed and other suppressed guns were refering to whether such was "marginal" or not for deer hunting. They were attempting to demonstrate that such a suppressed weapon then may be acceptable for deer hunting. If that suppressed 300 Whisper is the weapon of choice for deer hunting then one should load it to the maximum acceptable level and use it with in the limitations of the weapon/shooter. It is another matter to take a M1903A3 and load it down to a "marginal" level and then hunt deer with it. The rifle and cartridge are quite capable of much more than that. It is easily capable of driving that Lee 180 gr cast bullet to 2100 - 2200 fps with very acceptable deer hunting accuracy. That would be the best in my opinion. It also could be loaded down a bit to 1850-1900 fps for best accuracy and still be completely acceptable for Marks hunting conditions. However to drop that bullet down to 1400- to maybe 1600 fps puts it in the "marginal" range with such a rifle capable of much more is not reasonable to me. I stand by my original recomendation in my first post. I'm not talking about suppressed 300 Whisper for deer hunting. I already made that clear.

Larry Gibson

What's the matter Larry, my Swede shooting, not to mention the other 6.5 calibers, got you upset so you hang on my every post?

[smilie=l:

Joe

[madsenshooter]

Here we go again!

[Bullshop]

Wow Larry you need to take a chill pill dude. So subjects wander a bit, so whats new?
Movies ? You gotta be kidding, not allowed here. Try checking up on history. What I said about the Britts using the Enfield in 45 acp for sentry reduction thats history dude not fanticy. It stands to reason your right about collateral noise but I think I addressed that somewhat too as to the training in simaltainious target aquisition.
Comon dude you always seem to be the guy thats right and there are no other opinions that can fly past yours.
Check your history friend and make your arguments with the guys that did it. I guess maybe they never thought of all those things you pointed out, ya think so?
OK now I'll turn the other cheek.
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Please, my name is not "dude".

I don't need to read about suppressors, I've been there and have been using them since '66 including the type of .45 SMLE you are talking about. If you want to go offline with a PM I'll fill you in on what I've done or you can call me?

Joe needs to check his figures on comparable loading data for both the 30-30 and the .300 Whisper using comparable 14" Contender barrels. All the loading data I've looked at (including the two sites he gives) shows the 30-30 gives 200-300 fps higher velocities than the 300 Whisper with bullets of 130 -165 gr weight. In longer barrels the 30-30 will eat the .300 Whispers lunch simple because it has more case capacity. Anyone who bothers to look can see the same thing. Now to Joe 200-300 may be "are about" but he does conveniently leave out "the equal of" part of what he said. Joe made the accusation that Buce and I were "stuck on the heavy subsonic loads".

I do not need a "chill pill" but a double shot of good whiskey sounds aweful good:-)

Call if you want as I'd look forward to the chat or I can call you?

Larry Gibson

[bcp477]

You know, at this point I ust have to say (after reading through all of the posts in this thread)..... that this is EXACTLY why I do not ask many questions on this forum.... despite being a novice, IMO, on almost everything. Many here do stick to the subject at hand - but many will, it seems almost habitually, fly off into a tangential discussion of this or that arcane issue that has only a little (or nothing) to do with the subject of the thread. Then inevitably, an argument will follow - again, usually having nothing to do with the subject. Bloody hell ! It matters not in the least whether the 300 Whisper or the 45 ACP are good "sentry elimination" rounds....or good anti-tank rounds, for that matter. That is NOT germaine to this thread. The gentleman inquired about light 180 gr. loads in the 30-06....for deer hunting. It's as simple as that. I wouldn't be surprised if he now thinks that we are all a bunch of crackpot idiots - I wouldn't blame him.

Don't misunderstand me - I am grateful for the superior knowlwdge possessed by a great many here. That is why I keep coming back - to learn - and I do learn lots here. Many of you have helped me enormously - and I shall never forget that. But, it is VERY discouraging, for what it's worth, when this sort of thing happens.

There.....got it off my chest. Sorry for the rant.

[StarMetal]

You know, at this point I ust have to say (after reading through all of the posts in this thread)..... that this is EXACTLY why I do not ask many questions on this forum.... despite being a novice, IMO, on almost everything. Many here do stick to the subject at hand - but many will, it seems almost habitually, fly off into a tangential discussion of this or that arcane issue that has only a little (or nothing) to do with the subject of the thread. Then inevitably, an argument will follow - again, usually having nothing to do with the subject. Bloody hell ! It matters not in the least whether the 300 Whisper or the 45 ACP are good "sentry elimination" rounds....or good anti-tank rounds, for that matter. That is NOT germaine to this thread. The gentleman inquired about light 180 gr. loads in the 30-06....for deer hunting. It's as simple as that. I wouldn't be surprised if he now thinks that we are all a bunch of crackpot idiots - I wouldn't blame him.

Don't misunderstand me - I am grateful for the superior knowlwdge possessed by a great many here. That is why I keep coming back - to learn - and I do learn lots here. Many of you have helped me enormously - and I shall never forget that. But, it is VERY discouraging, for what it's worth, when this sort of thing happens.

There.....got it off my chest. Sorry for the rant.

No you done good. I'll man up here. I read the first two posts, the original then the first reply, and I stuck them together in my brain as the poster was using a 300 Whisper. I apologize. In that respect my answer is would parallel Brets....that it would work.

Joe

[Bullshop]

bcp477
You are right! I apologise to everyone! For the guy looking for an answer I didnt help anything. I became the very thing I detest. Thanks for pointing it out to me!
To be on subject and to quote some famous words,"use enough gun"!
Blessings to all
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

bcp477
You are right! I apologise to everyone! For the guy looking for an answer I didnt help anything. I became the very thing I detest. Thanks for pointing it out to me!
To be on subject and to quote some famous words,"use enough gun"!
Blessings to all
BIC/BS

Wow, I point that very fact (not following the thread) out that bcp477 has and I get a rant, called "dude" (and a "bottom feeding politician" on another thread where I point the same fact out to Starmetal, again) and told to take a "chill pill".

In a couple posts above I stated; "No Joe, once again you have taken things on a tangent. The question as posed by the originator of this thread, Mark Daiute, was if a Lee 180 gr bullet cast of WWs was good for deer hunting under his limited conditions. That is the topic of this thread, remember?" thus I do not feel compelled to apologise for anything said.

bcp477; I, for one, really do appreciate and agree your comments. In the above thread there is some very good information for Mark concerning his question. I just hope he finds the appropriate information and does not get discouraged by all the other off thread topic stuff.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Wow, I point that very fact (not following the thread) out that bcp477 has and I get a rant, called "dude" (and a "bottom feeding politician" on another thread where I point the same fact out to Starmetal, again) and told to take a "chill pill".

In a couple posts above I stated; "No Joe, once again you have taken things on a tangent. The question as posed by the originator of this thread, Mark Daiute, was if a Lee 180 gr bullet cast of WWs was good for deer hunting under his limited conditions. That is the topic of this thread, remember?" thus I do not feel compelled to apologise for anything siad.

bcp477; I, for one, really do appreciate and agree your comments.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I don't feel you have a need to apologize for anything here. I owned up and admitted I was wrong. So did Bullshop. The bottom feeder is in reference to your style of posting, writing, whatever you want to call it. Not a name for you...okay??? We good with that? In another manner I meant as how a democrat goes about saying things to get a bill passed. Again.....not calling you a democrat...okay..good with that?

Off topic, but since we are here, Waksupi manned up and admitted in the 6.5 thread he can't shoot a Swede an HV with accuracy. You on the other hand would never man up to that. So let's see the targets.:bigsmyl2:

Joe

[bruce drake]

Mentions of 6.5 Swede shooting belongs in the appropriate thread which most of us have put in the "ignore" stack due to the vitriol.

Yes, I have shot the load (12.5gr Red Dot over a .312 185gr LEE GC RN) in a 303 Brit at a deer. Neck shot at 50 yards. Well within the limitations of the load. The deer DRT dropped and bullet recovered the next day had about 60% retention.

Bruce

[Mark Daiute]

StarMetal said:

No you done good. I'll man up here. I read the first two posts, the original then the first reply, and I stuck them together in my brain as the poster was using a 300 Whisper. I apologize. In that respect my answer is would parallel Brets....that it would work.

Ok. Now which one of you is Bret and what would work, my load- 13 Grains Unique under the Lee 180 grain Pill, with my 03 out to 50 yards for deer?

I made a cursory look through the posts and didn't find "Bret" musta missed Bret.

Sorry for calling my load "the load". I'm learning a lot here! Still have a pound and a half of Unique that was given to me.

I have a half pound or so of IMR 3031 if anyone wants to give me a load that will up the anti a little...

Bruce Drake said:

The deer DRT dropped and bullet recovered the next day had about 60% retention.

DRT? dropped right there?

Thanks!

Mark

[Bullshop]

Mark have you chronographed the 13 unique/180lee load?
Think about this the 30/30 will do about 2000 fps from a carbine with a 170gn bullet.
I think the 13gn unique load you are using is substantially less than that velocity.
Do you feel comfortable hunting with less than the 30/30?
Another thing to consider is boolit expansion. Factory 30/30 ammo uses very soft bullets that expand easily. With lead alloy boolits to get any kind of expansion at all you need an impact velocity that at minimum is equal to the BHN x 100 and a little higher is better. Thats impact velocity not muzzle velocity. So lets say your alloy is BHN 15 if your impact velocity is not at minimum 1500 fps your boolit will act more like a solid and not make much of a hole or wound channel. If you hit head or spine your good but something like a high lung shot may be iffy. A good hit may appear to be a mis if not followed up. That is there may be no emediat reaction to a vital hit if your 30 cal boolit acts like a solid.
Personally I wouldnt feel comfortable using a 30 cal for deer with much less velocity than the 30/30 and I would prefer an alloy of about BHN 9 or something say like 20/1.
alloy. Thats just one mans opinion.
BIC/BS

[Nrut]

Mark
Do a little testing with water filled plastic jugs and card board or thin plywood in between to see what kind of expansion you are getting (hole in card board) with the vel. and the alloy you are using...
Then try the same thing with the alloy and vel. that Bullshop Dan suggests above..
50/50 WW/Pb give me around 8-9 bhn on my hardness tester... So does annealed WW if you don't have any Pb..

[bruce drake]

DRT - dropped right there

neckshot and the boolit and the fragments hit the spinal cord at least twice

Proper shot placement and knowing the distance were the keys to this deer.

[Bret4207]

I completely missed the Unique part of your load. The only reference to 13.0 Unique in the '06 I can find is an old Lyman load of 13.5 Unique and a 172 jacketed at 1500 fps. Without knowing what speed you'll be getting with a heavier cast boolit ( I have a feeling it'll be in the 1400fps range) I can't say one way or another. "The Load" of 13.0 Red Dot and a 190 gr boolit would work on short range deer, but it wouldn't be my first choice for sure. I'd prefer a FN 190 gr boolit in the 2K fps range and not lower than 1800 fps at the target. As Bruce said, we owe it to the game.

The individual hunter makes a huge difference as to what is appropriate. Some people have a real lust for deer hunting. To me it's just meat and a lot of work after I get it so I have passed up a lot of deer that other people would have shot. I won't shoot at an animal I can't really see or take "Hail Mary" shots across a meadow at an unknown distance. All that does is feed coyotes. My definition of "short range" is under 75 yards, and often under 50. I spent better than 10 minutes one day watching a forkhorn through the scope on a 32-20. I could count his eyelashes and could easily have stuck the 115 gr FN in his head for an instant kill. That's short range.

Anyway, The 3031 you have is a much better choice. Start around 28 gr and work up. That's a 30-30 load and in the '06 it'll be a lot slower. 30.0 3031 and a 189-190 gr boolit in the 30-30 is a 2K- 2100 fps load. You'll need to work up. I imagine something in the 35.0+ gr area will start to hit the 2K mark.

[Bret4207]

Mentions of 6.5 Swede shooting belongs in the appropriate thread which most of us have put in the "ignore" stack due to the vitriol.


Bruce

I second that emotion!

[Rocky Raab]

Speaking to Mark again.

Consider that the 44 Mangl'um with a 180-gr bullet at 1400 fps takes a lot of short-range deer. Bullet diameter aside, that certainly seems to make your load "adequate." If you were afield and had that load up the spout when a legal deer ambled by, you need not pass up the shot.

On the other hand, if you are going out specifically for deer with a cartridge having as much potential as the 30-06, then carrying such a weak load is poor judgment. (In my opinion.)
The quoted loads using 30 to 35 grains of 3031 will suit the task admirably. You almost certainly will need a gas-checked bullet for 2000 fps loads, BTW.

[StarMetal]

The Lyman cast book Third Edition gives these figures for the 30-06 using Unique with various weight. Consider that they said they tested these with a universal receiver and 26 inch barrel. I would assume your barrel is shorter, but with a fast burning powder Like Unique you should be in the ball park.

170 grain: 12 grs=1504fps, 16.5grs=1811fps
187 grain: 11.5grs=1404fps, 16.5grs=1715fps

Now those some anemic, but the pressure on the upper, or max, load was 35,500 for the 170 grain bullet and 36,000 for the 187 grain.

What powders do you have?

Joe

[pmeisel]

Putting this in historical perspective... the velocities Joe quotes in post 41 are very similar to what the manual (Lee 2nd is what is close right now) shows for a 303 Savage and a 32-40.

Both took deer in their day, but were replaced by rounds that could do the job better. If I was lucky enough to own a 32-40 I would probably still take it out for deer from time to time.

The 30-06 of course can do much better, just not with Unique!

[Bullshop]

See it was a little slow comming but it came. Oh ye of little faith!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[35 Whelen]

WOW...interesting post! Unless I missed it, no one replied with first hand evidence or experience regarding "low" velocity cast bullets on deer. If I may contribute my 2¢...
Several years ago when my oldest daughter decided she'd like to hunt deer with me, I decided to let her use my FR-8 Mauser Scout Rifle (308 Winchester cal.). I chose this rifle because it's short, light and I find the forward mounted scope is easier to use for people who aren't familiar with scopes. But as we all know, physics dictate that lighter rifles kick harder. So I decided to go the cast bullet route and develop a load using a 311291 HP. Cast from ACWW it weighs about 175 grs. Long story short, I settled on 22 grs. of AL2400 which netted around 1850 fps. Not a barn-burner, but would group 5 shots into less than 1.5" @ 100 yds. over and over. She wound up killing her first three deer with this load and rifle. We eat lots of venison and now, when I want a "meat" deer and know my shot will be 100 yds. or less, I almost always use this rig.
With said load and rifle, this what happened:

110 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Emilysdeer02-4.jpg

35 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Emilysdeer02-2.jpg

80 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/EmilysBuck11-033.jpg

30 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/GregsDeer043.jpg

65 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Doewithcastbullet.jpg

45 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/DollyandBuck.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Exithole.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Hollowpointentrance.jpg

There probably are more over the years that I just didn't bother to photograph. The bullet always exits with the exception of the doe that was shot @ 110 yds. It got dark on me so I couldn't see to recover the bullet and by the next morning, the coyotes had scattered the remains. Bullet expansion is dicey...but it seems to expand most of the time.
My theory on this subject is a hole through the lungs is a hole through the lungs and believe me, deer don't live long with holes in their lungs regardless of how slow or small in caliber the bullet was. Personally, if I was comfortable with my ability to hit with a the load described in the original post, then I'd use it.
35W

[StarMetal]

Putting this in historical perspective... the velocities Joe quotes in post 41 are very similar to what the manual (Lee 2nd is what is close right now) shows for a 303 Savage and a 32-40.

Both took deer in their day, but were replaced by rounds that could do the job better. If I was lucky enough to own a 32-40 I would probably still take it out for deer from time to time.

The 30-06 of course can do much better, just not with Unique!

Yes those are right out of Lyman's book. Larry Gibson and I talked at length about Lyman's testing...that is for the cast loads, not the jacketed they do. Larry told me that they don't shoot every single load in that book. If you think about it that would be quite a lot of shooting. Larry said some they actually shot, but most they figure out through whatever system they use. Say for example something like Quick Load. I wish that they would the pressures for all the cartridges. They seem to do only the most popular ones like 30-06, 308, etc..

Yes if the poster has a better powder that would be suggested. He can tell, or ask, for a load and more the likely one of us here have actually chronographed it and he will know what it's doing.

Hurry up...hunting season soon upon us!!!!

Joe

[Mark Daiute]

My powders:

Accurate Arms 4755
IMR 3031
IMR 4759
IMR 4064
IMR 4895 (quarter pound or less remaining in the jug)

Lee C309-180R with Hornady gas checks and cast from WW, air cooled.

My Krag likes the Lyman 314299 best and I'm working up loads in that rifle for my son to hunt with so I'm open to suggestions. Again, Hornady gas checks, air cooled WW's.

Have at it!

Thanks for all the great info so far. I'm going to start right in with the 3031 loads already recommended.

Mark

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to break my decision not to post anymore except by PM. I am so misquoted here by Starmetal it is pathetic and a correction is required.

Starmetal is entirely incorrect about what I said. I did not say; " that they don't shoot every single load in that book" or "they actually shot, but most they figure out through whatever system they use".

The conversation was with regards to whether Lyman did accuracy testing by by "shooting groups". What I told Starmetal was that Lyman does not accuracy test all of it's loads, including "accuracy loads" by shooting them for group at a target. I told him to read the Lyman Manual as it has been so stated in most recent Lyman Manuals. I also told Starmetal of a conversation I had some years back with a Lyman load development technition. He stated the "accuracy load" were selected as those that gave the best and most consistent internally uniform ballistics. He further stated they most often used a 50 yard indoor shooting tunnel with their pressure test rifles and regualr rifles and only occasionally used an out door 100 yard range. I don't think they even have the 100 yard out door range anymore.

Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition states on page 123 under Accuracy Loads; "[I Unless noted in "Comments", the accuracy load was not fired at targets. The load, however, does have a high potential - assuming all external factors are optimum - for producing outstanding accuracy since uniform internal ballistics are critical to accuracy on target. You cannot have one without the other.[/I]

That is what Lyman says and it is what I told Starmetal. The conversation then went on as to how I was able to measure the internal ballistics and their uniformity with the M43 Oehler PBL.

I am very preturbed by the blatent misquote of Starmetal's and only wish to correct it.

As to the topic of this thread.;

It certianly is nice to see everyone back on track. Given the capability of the '06 with cast bullets it should be loaded up to it's potential of 1850 to 2000+ fps with that bullet to pretty much equal the 30-30 and the 303 Savage, both of which are considered "adequate" for deer. I see no sense loading it any further "down" to a "marginal" range when the capability is there for better.

This will be my last post on this forum unless I am very badly misquoted as above. I want to thank all of the good folks here for an enjoyable time over the years. I have learned a lot here not only about cast bullets but other things of interest as well. I will not be entirely gone as I will continue to purview the posts. If I see a topic where I may have something pertinant I will PM the poster and with their permission respond.

Again, thanks to all, adios.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

My powders:

Accurate Arms 4755
IMR 3031
IMR 4759
IMR 4064
IMR 4895 (quarter pound or less remaining in the jug)

Lee C309-180R with Hornady gas checks and cast from WW, air cooled.

My Krag likes the Lyman 314299 best and I'm working up loads in that rifle for my son to hunt with so I'm open to suggestions. Again, Hornady gas checks, air cooled WW's.

Have at it!

Thanks for all the great info so far. I'm going to start right in with the 3031 loads already recommended.

Mark

Mark,

4895 and 4064 are very close. The 314299 and 311284 are my two favorite bullets for my Krag. To tell you the truth I haven't found a powder yet that my Krag didn't like. It's a very forgiving rifle/caliber.

I would give you loads for a Krag, but understand I normally try to drive my cast loads rather fast. I'm not the typical loader here trying to strive for economy loads. When I had lots of the H870 I was pretty much using a full case in 30-40 and 30-06 with very good success. Being that's a pretty slow powder my velocity was generally around 1800-1900 fps. For the Krag with those 200 grain cast that's about factory, but we know it's not for the 30-06.

In the Lyman book for the 30-06 using the 311299 the starting load for 4895 is 29.0 and for 4064 it's 30.5. The velocities are 1637 and 1703 fps. So you can see how close the two powders are. You could start with that little bit of 4895 you have, then switch over to the 4064 and be pretty close.

Joe

[fatnhappy]

WOW...interesting post! Unless I missed it, no one replied with first hand evidence or experience regarding "low" velocity cast bullets on deer. If I may contribute my 2¢...
Several years ago when my oldest daughter decided she'd like to hunt deer with me, I decided to let her use my FR-8 Mauser Scout Rifle. I chose this rifle because it's short, light and I find the forward mounted scope is easier to use for people who aren't familiar with scopes. But as we all know, physics dictate that lighter rifles kick harder. So I decided to go the cast bullet route and develop a load using a 311291 HP. Cast from ACWW it weighs about 175 grs. Long story short, I settled on 22 grs. which netted around 1850 fps. Not a barn-burner, but would group 5 shots into less than 1.5" @ 100 yds. over and over. She wound killing her first three deer with this load and rifle. We eat lots of venison and now, when I want a "meat" deer and know my shot will be 100 yds. or less, I almost always use this rig.
With said load and rifle, this what happened:

110 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Emilysdeer02-4.jpg

35 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Emilysdeer02-2.jpg

80 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/EmilysBuck11-033.jpg

30 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/GregsDeer043.jpg

65 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Doewithcastbullet.jpg

45 yds.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/DollyandBuck.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Exithole.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Hollowpointentrance.jpg

There probably are more over the years that I just didn't bother to photograph. The bullet always exits with the exception of the doe that was shot @ 110 yds. It got dark on me so I couldn't see to recover the bullet and by the next morning, the coyotes had scattered the remains. Bullet expansion is dicey...but it seems to expand most of the time.
My theory on this subject is a hole through the lungs is a hole through the lungs and believe me, deer don't live long with holes in their lungs regardless of how slow or small in caliber the bullet was. Personally, if I was comfortable with my ability to hit with a the load described in the original post, then I'd use it.
35W

Forigive my ignorance, but I must ask, does Texas not require blaze orange?
You obviously have a daughter that loves spending time with her father.

As for the topic of the thread... marginal? A 180 grain boolit at 1500 sounds an awful lot like a .357 loaded with a 358429. Is that marginal?

Sometimes after reading these threads I wonder if the deer in other states wear kevlar.

[Mark Daiute]

Starmetal:

to re-iterate; I have the C309 for my 03 and the 314299 for my Krag. Same loads for the 03 with the 180 grain bullet as you suggest for the Krag with the 200 grain bullet?

Again, to all: thanks for the great info.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal:

to re-iterate; I have the C309 for my 03 and the 314299 for my Krag. Same loads for the 03 with the 180 grain bullet as you suggest for the Krag with the 200 grain bullet?

Again, to all: thanks for the great info.

Those loads for the heavier bullets are safe for the lighter ones. The will increase though since they are lighter.

I'll look through my note book and see what I have in there for those two calibers. I had two 03's I really enjoyed and both shot equally the same....good. So far, personally, I haven't see a Krag that wouldn't shoot good. Most I've seen did have decent bores. I'll imagine there are some pretty shot out ones that don't do well.

You have two of the best rifles ever made and great cast shooters to hunt with.

Joe

[35 Whelen]

Forigive my ignorance, but I must ask, does Texas not require blaze orange?
You obviously have a daughter that loves spending time with her father.

As for the topic of the thread... marginal? A 180 grain boolit at 1500 sounds an awful lot like a .357 loaded with a 358429. Is that marginal?

Sometimes after reading these threads I wonder if the deer in other states wear kevlar.

Blaze orange is required only when hunting on public land. FWIW, Texas is 97% private property. I also hunt in New Mexico and they do not require blaze orange.
35W

[atr]

I do what bcp does,,,for deer hunting I upped my 180gr to 2000fps in the .308Win using rifle powder IMR 4895,
if you have ever traile a wounded critter throught the woods there would be no question about ever using a "marginal" load. Tracking wounded game is no fun,,,,I go for the extra umph in a hunting load.

[Texinoz]

Wow - no mention of shot placement as an issue - or what species of deer. Over here we have tiny little fallow deer (usually waaaayyy less than 100lbs) up through red deer to quite large Sambar.

200gn @ 2000fps sure isn't needed for the little stuff...

[L Ross]

Well, I'll stick a toe in the water. I have had experience shooting 3 deer with the these three cast boolit loads.
150 gr.RCBS flat nose gas checked WW alloy with 13 gr. Red Dot Chrono'd at 1632 fps. from 03 Springfield. Average size adult doe quartering toward me at 35 yards. Broke left front leg, ranged through left lung, center of heart, rear of right lung, through the diaphram, through the liver, and exited middle of right side. There was no expansion but there was a star shaped radial split, ( 5 lines ) in the heart. Doe made 4 quick bounds, stopped, the tail shivered and she fell over. Dead when I walked up to her.

8x58R Swedish Rolling Block with that Lee big 8 m/m boolit at 230 gr. WW, 22 gr 5744, velocity 1640 chrono'd. Neck shot spike buck at 42 yards. 1 1/2 inches of vertebrae missing, instantly dead.

35 whelen 16 twist, RCBS 200 gr. flat point, too soft an alloy at 7 brinell, 30 gr. 5744 1800 fps chrono'd. Adult doe high lung shot, steeply uphill at 55 yards. Dropped in her tracks and slid down the hill almost to me, stopped kicking as she stopped sliding. Golf ball size exit wound. That was when I suspected too soft alloy. I was given the boolits and later found the rifle leaded out after 20 rounds. I tested the brinell after the fact.

Shot placement is paramount. I shoot game to eat it. I don't want a bunch of bloodshot, jellied meat to spend time on trimming.

As an aside, I transported a convicted deer poacher one day and his favorite deer killer was a 22 mag fmj with heart shots. He said they were almost always recovered in 30 yards. He remembered not recovering 1 deer for fear of being seen, not that the deer wasn't dead nearby.

Duke

[onondaga]

Mark, A reputable guide would likely say that 1000 foot pounds of energy delivered with your bullet is necessary for a clean humane kill of deer. A ballistic calculator would put velocity of a 180 gr RN at 1841 fps muzzle velocity to deliver 1000 foot pounds at 100 yards for a clean kill at that maximum distance.

Calculator:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

Gary

[10x]

I have shot a number of deer with 180 to 200 grain cast bullets ticking along at around 1450 fps with my 303 Ross rifle. At thirty yards the 180 grain lee will shoot the full length of a mule deer (texas heart shot) and break every rib on its way to stopping under the hide at the front of the deer. A cast bullet that is too hard will act just like a full metal jacket, one that is softer will expand very nicely. I have found the speed limit for an alloy that expands nicely on deer sized game is about 1500 fps - over that I get groups opening up.
Do your part, make sure you can hit a vital organ before you pull the trigger and make sure that your bullet is soft enough to expand and you will have one shot kills.

[pilot]

All the loads you guys have talked about so far are hotter than the muzzle loader I have used to kill deer with. It seems to work pretty well. I would also add that shot placement is the most important factor regardless of the load.

[10x]

All the loads you guys have talked about so far are hotter than the muzzle loader I have used to kill deer with. It seems to work pretty well. I would also add that shot placement is the most important factor regardless of the load.

That is an understatement. Gut shot is gut shot whether it be with a muzzle loader, a cast bullet, or a top line Buck a pop controlled expansion partition, spire pointed, boat tailed, mouse milk coated, designed for shooting through a rib then expanding in the soft lung tissue, hunting bullet.

In the 1930s my father killed moose with a 44-40. It only took one shot in the lungs so long as it was under one hundred yards and you didn't hit a rib. Shot placement counted.

[nanuk]

I have to bang my head every time I read about "Marginal" loads

I read a forum where many talk about 800yd kills on deer using all sorts of calibers.... a 165gr 30 launched at 2900fps can't be going 1600fps at 800yds.... Yet if they can hit them, it kills them.

a 45/70 going just above the speed of sound will kill a moose out to 125-150yds no effort, no expansion, just a 45cal hole all the way through.

is a deer any different with a 30cal hole all the way through at the same distance/speed?

Really.... I ask sincerely.... Cause I fail to see the difference between the above mentioned 358429 at 1400fps out of a handgun killing at 100yds (and yes, I have read MANY posts about that very thing) and a 30cal doing the same thing... What makes the 30 less potent?

the same thing happens when new shooters ask about rounds such as the 30Remington, or 300savage.... all the Magnumites say it is marginal! Yet a friend of mine has been killing moose, elk and deer for 45years with a 300 savage99.... Never worries about losing them. Keeps his shots within 200yds....

then lets add the .45cal RB muzzleloader to the mix

[35 Whelen]

For some reason, people like to complicate their endeavors so as to make them seem more important...or perhaps more difficult.
Most simply put, a deer with a hole through its lungs WILL die. That's all it takes, folks. No special formula, no certain amount of energy, etc.
Nanuk I guess to answer your question, if the .30 were less effective than the .45, it would have to be because all things equal it makes a slightly smaller hole or wound channel.
35W

[Larry Gibson]

I've lost a deer that I know was hit hard because it went down. Like a fool I was so confident I did not chamber another round as I walked up to it. I could see the entrance wound "behind the shoulder" but as I was about 20 yards the very nice 4 point black tail buck (that's an 8 or 10 pointer to white tail hunters) was on his feet and into the very thick brush of the coastal mountain foothils in the Willamette Valley of Oregon. The buck was up and gone so fast I did not get another round chambered. There was also blood on the ground from the exit wound. As I waited the customary 10 - 15 minutes for him to keg up and die it started raining. I spent the rest of that day and two other miserable days trying to find that buck and never did find hide nor hair of him. I've no doubt he was dead from the 6.5 mm hole put through his lungs. The thought of that lost buck still haunts me when hunting and I vowed; "never again".

Thus I quit using smaller than 170 gr .30 cal cast bullets on deer in dense thick forested areas. Open country or if good tracking snow is on the ground is another story. I push the cast bullets to 1950 - 2200 fps. Something to be said for "use enough gun" in that terrain. If using a handgun I severely limit the range, push magnum loads to 1400 fps and use expanding HP cast bullets. I've shot enough deer with handguns using all sorts of bullets to know they generally are not as quick killers as rifles. I quit using the "behind the shoulder" shot because most often it only puts a hole through lungs only and then not through the thickest part of them. The blodd internally settels low into the chest cavity and not a lot is leaked out of tracking/trailing. I now use a heart/lung shot putting the bullet into the heart area low between the legs. This, if it misses the heart, still hits al larger and more concentrated part of the lungs causing faster and more massive hemoraging. It also, being lower in the chest cavity, allows blood to get out of the entrance and exit holes quicker in larger quanity. Plus all the major arteries and veins are located in that area running to and from the heart. Generally one or both of the front legs are damaged limiting movement. It is a much surer shot and the animals do not travel as far after being hit before piling up and dying if the are not DRT. There's a little more meat damage but better that than losing a whole deer.

Lastly I learned to reload imediately and always be ready for another shot. "Dead" does not always mean imediately and a "dead" deer can go a long ways before really being dead.

No, it is not complicated to "kill" a deer and a hole through the lungs certainly will do it. However, the complicated part can be in the recovery of said deer if only a hole through the lungs is made and the terrain/weather conditions are not good for tracking/trailing. You may not think so now but lose a deer you have shot and you will change your mind.

Larry Gibson

[NHlever]

I've lost a deer that I know was hit hard because it went down. Like a fool I was so confident I did not chamber another round as I walked up to it. I could see the entrance wound "behind the shoulder" but as I was about 20 yards the very nice 4 point black tail buck (that's an 8 or 10 pointer to white tail hunters) was on his feet and into the very thick brush of the coastal mountain foothils in the Willamette Valley of Oregon. The buck was up and gone so fast I did not get another round chambered. There was also blood on the ground from the exit wound. As I waited the customary 10 - 15 minutes for him to keg up and die it started raining. I spent the rest of that day and two other miserable days trying to find that buck and never did find hide nor hair of him. I've no doubt he was dead from the 6.5 mm hole put through his lungs. The thought of that lost buck still haunts me when hunting and I vowed; "never again".

Thus I quit using smaller than 170 gr .30 cal cast bullets on deer in dense thick forested areas. Open country or if good tracking snow is on the ground is another story. I push the cast bullets to 1950 - 2200 fps. Something to be said for "use enough gun" in that terrain. If using a handgun I severely limit the range, push magnum loads to 1400 fps and use expanding HP cast bullets. I've shot enough deer with handguns using all sorts of bullets to know they generally are not as quick killers as rifles. I quit using the "behind the shoulder" shot because most often it only puts a hole through lungs only and then not through the thickest part of them. The blodd internally settels low into the chest cavity and not a lot is leaked out of tracking/trailing. I now use a heart/lung shot putting the bullet into the heart area low between the legs. This, if it misses the heart, still hits al larger and more concentrated part of the lungs causing faster and more massive hemoraging. It also, being lower in the chest cavity, allows blood to get out of the entrance and exit holes quicker in larger quanity. Plus all the major arteries and veins are located in that area running to and from the heart. Generally one or both of the front legs are damaged limiting movement. It is a much surer shot and the animals do not travel as far after being hit before piling up and dying if the are not DRT. There's a little more meat damage but better that than losing a whole deer.

Lastly I learned to reload imediately and always be ready for another shot. "Dead" does not always mean imediately and a "dead" deer can go a long ways before really being dead.

No, it is not complicated to "kill" a deer and a hole through the lungs certainly will do it. However, the complicated part can be in the recovery of said deer if only a hole through the lungs is made and the terrain/weather conditions are not good for tracking/trailing. You may not think so now but lose a deer you have shot and you will change your mind.

Larry Gibson

Larry, thanks so much for this honest, and informative post. I live in a deer poor state, and it is possible to hunt hard, and hunt right, and still not see a legal deer the whole season. My experience, however, mirrors yours though it is much more limited. I've shot deer in the mid, and high lung area, and have been really disappointed in the lack of a blood trail, or even evidence the animal was hit, even with J-word bullets. The last deer I took with my .257 Roberts using the Hornady 117 RN was a high lung shot ( to miss brush he was standing behind) at about 70 yards which is sometimes a long shot around here. There was absolutely no indication that he was hit, and not a drop of blood to be found.. I knew the crosshairs looked good when the shot went off so I patiently worked the trail out. (he was with other deer) I found him quite dead in some very thick brush about100 yards from where he was shot......... not a drop of blood anywhere along that trail. I've also shot a few deer with .30 caliber cast boolits, and have found their performance to be similar to a Hornady 170 FN loaded to modest velocities (2000 fps, or so) I have given up on that bullet placement using anything but j-word bullets at somewhat higher velocities (2500 + or so) I am also thinking about a new cast boolit hunting rifle for deer, and the occasional Russian Boar. ( I live next to a game preserve that "loses" some out the fence once in a while. I have seen the opposite thing happen to no blood with high lung shots with a friend using a 45-70 with hot 300 gr. HP loads. That shot dumped so much blood on the ground where the deer was hit that it didn't bleed more out for about 80 long yards of very difficult trailing.. I have a .35 Remington Marlin that shoots very well, but I have to say that Marlins are a jinx with me, and deer hunting. I have carried them for hundredes of hours, and miles over the last 50 years, and have never had a good shot at a deer while using one. Take an old Mauser out the next day, and shoot a buck, so I need to find a gun that speaks to me in a larger than .30 caliber that I would also enjoy using other times of the year too........ maybe that Ruger No.1A in .35 Whelen I saw a little while ago? :D :D

[nanuk]

sometimes things happen

I lost a deer once that I will never forget. One hour prior to dark, we were sitting in a bale blind, lots of room. a spike buck comes out and we decide he was meat in our freezer.
At about 25yds, I honked at him and with a VERY steady rest, I put a .277 150gr J-word right through what I felt was the top of the heart! (factory load with a standard C&C)

the deer bounded off like nothing happened. We found an area that looked like a SprayBomb had exploded.... red everywhere.. but no trail beyond

we saw where he had gone in the trees.. not even that dense.

searched until dark..... NOTHING

I went back the next morning and found a backbone and hide with one leg still attached. the Coyotes got the rest.

Seems the buck had taken a 90deg turn just inside the bush, and hunkered down about 12ft from the trail we walked... we never saw him. He died there.

Now, a 150gr 270 at around 2750 or more impact speed into the lungs SHOULD be a DRT... but things happen

[Good Cheer]

Just my preference...I believe in diameter and weight. We got little deer and I use a 283 grain .375 wheel weight boolit going 2063 average. Over kill close up and adequate way out yonder.