1858 Pietta Remington

[R. Flux]

Gentlemen, collectively you have an incredible about of experience. I have a new Pietta 5 ½” Stainless 1858 Remington Revolver (Proof “CD” = 2009) and want to develop reasonably accurate, effective and fun loads, both roundball & conicals. Fit and finish are pretty good with no play, but the internals could benefit from a light stoning. I solicit your advice.

Let’s start with roundball and boolit selection. I have seen it said for 1858 Pietta new production, .440 land and .446 for both groove and chamber diameters, but not authoritatively.
My actual measurements obtained by miked ball gauge:
Barrel Land- .4368” averaged from 6 measurements; range .4365” to .4370”
Barrel Groove- not measured easily from a slug (and the barrel could be smoother)
Barrel throat- entrance about .4653”; about midway .4453” (rough finish)
Barrel throat length to full land- about .17”
Cylinder Chamber 1- .447”
2- .447”
3- .447”
4- .447”
5- .447”
6- .447” (good news I think)
Ram Clearance (ram to cylinder face) - .47” (maximum conical length loaded with ram on pistol.)

What is the optimal roundball size? .448”? .449”?

Whose roundball moulds do you like best? Consider accuracy, ease of use, price, production rates?

What is an optimal roundball alloy? (pure lead, Pb+2%Sn, WW, WW+2%Sn, range scrap, 50% PB & 50% WW, harder or softer?)

I have made and shot cast for many years in 6.5mm Sw Mausers, .30 cal, wonder nines (mostly using LBT Blue lube), flinters .50 BP English style rifle and .75 Brown Bess, but I am new to cap & ball. I read the Stickys and most of the forums, but would like to hone in on a few basic points.

Original Remington conical loads where around 216 gr. and 30 gr. BP. A 200 to 230 gr. conical seems to be a good start.
What boolit style and molds are most successful? (truncated cone, RNFP, EPP-UG, R.E.A.L., LBT, others)
If a Flat Point, meplat size? 62% - 65% or so?

What about bevel base? (in wonder nines they have worked well for me). If you shave off a few thousandths of lead off a roundball into the Cylinder you sort of get a very short beveled base round nose slug.

What is an optimal cast alloy? (pure lead, Pb+2%Sn, WW, ½ & ½, WW+2%Sn, range scrap, how hard (somewhere I have a little foundry metal and linotype). Is it different for roundball versus conical? In cast rifle and pistol I have favored water quenched WW+2%Sn.

What should conicals be sized? (.001 to .002 over land diameter?) or to snuggly fit the Cylinder?
Or is used as cast optimal? (Obviously less work)

Should conicals be pan lubed or lubed in a lubersizer?
If sized how many lube grooves filled? (SPG, felix, Pearl II, LBT Blue or what?)

Is LBT Blue more appropriate to a smokeless or BP replacement?

Assuming well cast rounds, at pistol ranges I don’t think I need to weigh and group each cast, but what else should I watch out for after a visual inspection?

Should I ask if hollowpoints make a difference in accuracy of low velocity BP revolver? Using hollowpoints to change sectional density can make a big difference in long range cast rifle shooting.

If you have multiple cylinders do you have differing loads for each?

Another time maybe we can chat about what else could be done to improve accuracy? (lap cylinders? barrel?, throat, etc.) Or maybe types of BP, BP substitutes, optimal loads and wad/card/grease & lube particularities.

Finding the balance between complexity and fun can be challenging. All thoughts welcome.

Regards,
R. Flux

[docone31]

Good reading. I am not so sure about a lot of things but I know this.
.454 Lee Round ball mold, with pure lead. Cannot beat it. 30gns of powder.
Black powder is different from smokeless. The large size of the land helps in the rifleing. I make my lube, and fill the chamber over the round ball with it.
You gonna have fun with that pistol. Clean it with hot water and soap after firing. I use #10 caps. #11 fall off and get jammed.
Very mild recoil, good targeting. Slow to load. Fast to fire if I want to.
Shooting the way it was supposed to be.

[gon2shoot]

mine measures 451 so I load 453 with 24 gr. of Graff's powder.

Havent had time to shoot it much.

[44man]

Boolits are not as good as round balls in the Remington. Take a good look at how close chambers are together, from the front. You will see that it is easy for gas from the forcing cone to enter the next throat. This will ruin the nose of a boolit in the next chamber.
It does not seem to effect the round ball as much when a good lube is on top of the ball.
I use Mathews PBCR lube in front of balls, it does not blow away as bad as stuff like Crisco.

[freedom475]

In my Pietta Rem58 I prefur the .457 RB cast from lead as pure as I can find.

The .457 shaves plenty of lead but is still easy to load. There is no worries of the spur getting off-centered and leaving an opening to alow a chain-fire when the 457 is used.

I have found that 4ffff BP is the most accurate and quickest to fire. Better velocity can be achived with PyrodexP but it doesn't ignite as fast as the 4F.

If I use #10 caps I sometimes have Failure to Fire because the caps don't seat well. I use #11's and just pinch them closed a little before I put them on. They still seat just fine and seal if you push them on hard. Remington caps have a longer skirt so I prefur them to the cci's.

I tried some of the boolits in it but the added weight of the boolits caused damage to my base pin in just 6 shots so I stopped using them.

[Maven]

R. Flux, What diameter RB does Pietta recommend and why are you considering something different? I.e., has the gun been inaccurate with the factory recommendation? Try what Pietta says before you try larger (?) sizes and certainly before you look for a mold: Hornady and Speer make swaged .451", .454" and .457" RB's, and Casting Stuff (link on bottom of this page) sells them as well (cast, not swaged). Although I use WW + 1% Sn RB's in my muzzle loading rifles, I use only pure Pb in my revolvers so as not to bend the loading lever, especially with oversized RB's. As for lubes, people use just about anything, but BP lubes help keep the fouling in check. Traditions (nee Ox-Yoke) Wonder Lube is a good one and so are their .45cal. lubed overpowder felt wads. Try the above before you lay out $$$ for a mold.

[R. Flux]

Update
Thanks for all the good ideas and great responses. There is much to chew on. I’ll need to set up a range of ammo components to test. Here is a little more information that should have been in the original post.
- Pietta manual & Web says use 3F, .454 (11.55mm) RB (shaving .007”), 12-15 grs 3F BP. (However, is this pre CNC, post CNC or composite/generic recommendation?) (15 grs BP is pretty low!) ( I may have a faster slingshot)

- Cabela’s manual: roundball .451 (shaving .004”). Standard Cylinder Capacity is 35 grs G-O 3F.

- The groove diameter is approximately .466”. This was derived from ball gauge and slug data. I don’t have access to a proper machinist’s V measurement block (to cope with the 7 grooves.) (CBA [Cast Bullet Assoc.] used to have a service to do this, it was great.) This is GOOD, as my cylinder is .01 larger than the land and .001 than the groove.

I think I need to concentrate on the fit and finish of the revolver, light stoning, polishing/burnishing the cylinder and the roundball load and it components. And stronger thumbs for cocking to minimize barrel wiggle!

The first key is bullet fit, the groove must be smaller than the Cylinder diameter. With my Brown Bess half the battle is to not bounce the ball down that long smooth barrel; with modern rifle fit is crucial. The more you shave the RB, the more you get a short slug and not a RB. When fired, as the land displaces Pb and the grooves fill, the projo increasingly becomes more a slug than ball. So… if it is fire formed into a round nosed & round butt slug, shouldn’t a properly fitted conical, who starts that way, perform significantly better? Less mechanical stress, longer bearing surface, lubrication possibilities, better (longer) sectional density, meplat capabilities, (ballistic coefficient not so important on these short ranges) Am I going to far afield?. Many forum comments say RB is more accurate. Why?

The fire formed slug/nee RB spins on the barrel axis and is no longer round. Was RB preferred because it was easy to orient in loading? Or are the differences to small to effect performance?

Further, if shaving the RB some is good, is shaving a greater amount better? Maybe we should load the cylinder off weapon, in a stand and with compound leverage to really swage a slug out of a larger RB? With pure Pb or a soft alloy (less than 10 BHN?) a large RB can easily be made a slug in the Cylinder. With the right ram shape you could change the nose shape too.

Please further enlighten me. I am an old artilleryman, so internal and external ballistics are in my blood. I’m used to LARGER projos, 33lb used to be minimum weight, but I’m a man, I can change; I guess.

Made a nipple wrench from a 5mm ¼“ Drive deep well socket yesterday, works great.

Regards,
R. Flux

[Maven]

R. Flux, If you're looking for greater muzzle energy, conicals may be the boolits of choice. However, you have to purchase a mold and hope it casts large enough for a good fit in your cylinder. Realize too, that they're a bit harder to load (straight) than RB's and take up space in the cylinder that might better be used for powder. As for the proper diameter RB, I'd follow Pietta's recommendation rather than Cabela's, but different manufacturers of 1858 Rem. replicas, and maybe even the same manufacturer at different times, specify different diameters. E.g., my 1858 Rem., a Euroarms import, requires a .451" RB. Fortunately RB's are relatively inexpensive so you can experiment with different diameters to see which is more accurate. Btw, if you test for accuracy, make sure you swab the bbl. after firning all 6 shots and maybe boost the charge of 3F to 20 grains. One last comment if you start to cast: I have a friend who is a champion flintlock rifle shooter. He weighs every RB he casts and has convinced me to do the same with every boolit I cast. Believe me, it makes a difference and isn't as time consuming as you'd imagine IF you have a digital scale.
Hope this helps!

[freedom475]

I may be out of line here, but... Pietta's 15gr. suggestion is a total joke for a Rem 58.
It actually would be considered a dangerous practice by most because I don't believe the rammer will even get the ball down to the powder with only 15gr.3ff.

We all know that this "Short-Loading" can turn a fine muzzleloading rifle into a grenade. Not an issue with only 15gr. but it is still the principle... Another fine example to the fact that we have turned our country and businesses over to a bunch of Lawyers.:violin:[smilie=s::mrgreen: OK enough about all that..[smilie=s:

I think the hassels of loading the Boolits correctly make the RB's much more fun to shoot.

I know there may be suggestions of .452, .454'ect.... But where you are shaving only .004 from the ball...this is only .002 from each side if everything is exactly perfect (not likely) ... Now if there is any out of round to the ball/cylinder then this number falls even more ...Result= CHAINFIRE

I only use .457 in all of my 44 C&B's and even if I mess up and load a ball with the spur sideways, I still get enough shaved off lead to seal the chamber.

I have been shooting my 58 every chance I get .. and that is quite a bit since I can shoot out the back door.. but my cap supply is running low so I have been easing off. I have found that 25-30gr.(volume) 4ffff really shoots fast and accurate. Not as much velocity over the chrono as Pyrodex P but it ignites way faster and burns clean.. I have sure improved my offhand shooting with the 4f.

I just shot up 5"x 7"paperback book. off hand at 60yrds with my Rem and this load. There may be lots of folks that can do better but I was pretty happy to see the book gone from the top of the log when the smoked cleared with each shot.[smilie=w:

Wes

[NickSS]

I have 4 piatta 1858 remingtons that I have shot for years (one of them has over 10000 rounds through it). I have used .451, .454, and .457 RB and a lee 200 gr conical in mine. Almost all my loading is done with 28 to 30 gr of FFFG black powder as that load leaves enough room for the ball and a good compression of the powder when loading. If you use less powder you may get a bit more accuracy but you need to use a filler like cow or grits. I am not a target shooter and as my piatta with print all balls in the 10 and X ring at 25 yards with my favorite load it is good enough for me. Use only pure lead for casting any slugs for a C&B revolver. My brother made some out of WW and I almost broke my hand trying to load them. What ever size ball you pick make sure that it shaves at least a little leadwhen loading as this is what seals the chamber from flash back from the next shot. As for lube I have used a lot of different ones over the past 40 years but prefer the yellow bore butter of today as it cleans up nicely. I get the stiff stuff for lubing ML bullets and cover the ball with it after loading. When out in the field hunting I generally make paper combustible cartridges from cigarette paper. I make the cartridge by rolling a tapperd tube around a dowel stick that I shaped for the purpose. I glue the seam and fold over the bottom and glue it. When dry I dump powder in the case add a pre-lubed wonder wad and a ball. I run glue around the ball before I shove it in. I have made up wooded blocks that take six rounds each by drilling out holes large enough on the end. After loading the blocks, I run a strip of paper over the open holes and then tap it in place. This protects my cartridges when I am out hiking around. To load I pull the paper and tape off and dump the cartridges into my hand. I tear the end off with my teeth and then shove the whole thing into the camber and ram home. With practice I can reload my revolver in only a few minutes.