Bob's new 1903 Mark1

[shooter2]

This is a nice, clean, gun I bought at the Tulsa in early April. The stock is dark, but I doubt it was shot after the rework in 1944. The barrel is pristine and the metal is near 100%. I finally had a chance to play with it and am most pleased. I spent a couple hours with various loads and getting used to the sights. Best group was just over 1.5" at 65 yards with 311284 and 21.0 grains of SR4759.

Beagle and I were talking about the sights and he thought there was a device the match shooters used to set the ladder sight. Anyone familiar with that?

Also, as near as I can find out, no Pedersen Devices survived. Does anyone know differently?

Thanks!

[45 2.1]

Also, as near as I can find out, no Pedersen Devices survived. Does anyone know differently?Thanks!

Your wrong on that. I've personally seen and handled two such complete pederson devices with all the accessories and looked at several unopened cases of ammo for them. One unit was for sale with ammo. This was back in the late 70's at a gun show north of Chicago. I have bought sample rounds of the pederson ammo since at other shows.

[StarMetal]

45 2.1 .....is right. I've talked to a fellow that knows where a bunch of these thing are, or were. He knew the fellow that was in on project of making them and then the word come down to destroy all of them that they weren't going to proceed in producing them. Well this fellow thought hell with that, I'm taking a bunch of them home which he did and got away with.

Joe

[oksmle]

"Beagle and I were talking about the sights and he thought there was a device the match shooters used to set the ladder sight. Anyone familiar with that? "

What Beagle was talking about is the O'Hare Gauge. I have two of them that are never loaned out to even my best friends except under my direct supervision. They were once a common item at Camp Perry during the heyday of the '03. They will also work on the Krag with a similar ladder sight. I wish my computer abilities included the taking of pictures & posting to the site, because one picture is worth a thousand words of explanation. If any of you guys are interested (Sundog) I will mail one Gauge to you & let you post a picture. Must be insured both ways. Occasionally one will be found on Ebay & it never brings less than $300.00. I'll bet a good machinist can turn one out in an hour. It's nothing more than a hollow brass tube that hooks over the top of the ladder sight & then a pair of claws that hooks under the riser. You turn the knob on the top of the gauge & it allows you to make infinite adjustments to the sight riser. Those team shooters equipped with the gauge used to give each other "O'Hare settings" so that other team member's first rounds would be in the black at any given distance. These settings, once adjusted for the shooter's own rifle, were then recorded in the individual shooter's notebook. For instance, the 100 yard O'Hare setting on one of my '03s with Lyman's #311284 & 21.0 grs of SR4759 with a 6 o'clock hold is 44.5. That will get you close to the ten ring. The wind is up to you....

oksmle

[straightshooter1]

oksmle:

My shooting buddy, a WW2 Marine armorer, laments almost everytime we shoot our Springfields, how he turned down one of those O'Hare gauges for $6.00. He said he looked at it, decided $6.00 could better be spent on other things.

I would love to have one, not sure I could stand to pay $300 for one though. Would you give my buddy a second chance at one for the $6?

Just kidding. Would love to see someone post a real clear, detailed picture on here, though.

Bob

[floodgate]

Ideal made a cute little gizmadgy for setting Krag Model 1901 and Springfield '03 sights, a lot simpler than the O'Hare (of which I possess a treasured example). I've got one somewhere, but it is buried too deep to locate just now, besides it's badly corroded and the markings are illegible. But here's a picture from an old catalog. The whole thing is about 5/16" in diameter over the barrel and about 1 1/2" long. Once the sight is set for a particular range, you place it in the sight ladder ABOVE the slide, with the lock nut "C" against the inside top of the sight "window", and adjust the barrel "A" on its 30-tpi thread (same as their 310 dies!) until the foot "B" of the internal screw sits atop the slide, lock the nut "C", and take a reading just like with a micrometer (the barrel is ticked around its end "0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4", and the stem has indices "1" through "10"). Then you log the setting and use it to re-set the sight for that range. Much more compact than the O'Hare, and probably about as accurate. I've got no idea where you'd find one, but if you spot one - and the seller doesn't know what it is - you could probably get it a lot cheaper. They cost a whopping $1.50 back around 1910. I'll bet Buckshot could make you one real easy!

floodgate

[Bob S]

I'll bet a good machinist can turn one out in an hour. It's nothing more than a hollow brass tube that hooks over the top of the ladder sight & then a pair of claws that hooks under the riser. You turn the knob on the top of the gauge & it allows you to make infinite adjustments to the sight riser.
oksmle

I dunno about an hour, but the new repros have been around for a couple of years. Ray Brandes makes them (and a lot of other great high power gear):

http://www.ray-vin.com/

Go to Sight Tools. $75. I got one a few years ago, and retired my original USCG Team mike and locked it up in the safe (BTW, that one cost me $35 in 1983). Ray's repro is friggin' beautious, works perfectly.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[floodgate]

...and "Straightshooter", here's a cut of the O'Hare tool, from one of Paddy's Camp Perry catalogs from about the same time. This one is about 3/4" wide and 3" long; the "claws" at left fit UNDER the sight slide, and the notch in the knurled (fixed, not a lock-nut!) ring at the top of the tool body fits OVER the top of the sight ladder - but the principle is the same; at over 3 times the price ($5.00). But, they ARE real pretty little gadgets!

floodgate

[oksmle]

Bob S .... Thanks. I think I just acquired my third one. Like yours my two originals will be retired to the safe & I'll use the one by Ray-Vin. It will be interesting to see if the settings on the O'Hare & Ray-Vin have the same point of impact with the different loads.

oksmle

[straightshooter1]

I just got off the phone after ordering one of Ray-Vin's gauges and am eager to try it out.

I have one Springfield that, for some reason I can't understand, is very finicky w/sight changes. A small movement up or down seems to change the POI radically compared to the rest of my Springfields. This one has a Sedgely USMC barrel and I think it is more accurate than the rest, though one I have with the star gauge marking seems really accurate, too.

Both the star gauged rifle and another one someone chrome plated (Legion?) don't have the radically different POI though the sights are identical. I don't understand why there is such a difference but hope this gauge takes the effort out of minor adjustments.

Bob

[floodgate]

I believe the original intent with the O'Hare - and the British versions, of which I have one, modified to fit an '03 - and CERTAINLY with the little Ideal micrometer - was NOT to use it to push or pull the sight slider up or down, but simply to record the setting once the rifle had been sighted-in for the specific range and conditions. You CAN do it - at least to pull the slider up with the O'Hare, IF you set the slider with just the right amount of drag; but the correct way - as I have heard it told - was to reset the micrometer to the desired range, set it in place, and move the slider by hand until it was stopped by the "claws" on the O'Hare, or by the "foot" and lock-nut on the Ideal and then lock it tight. The other way is sorta like using a micrometer or vernier caliper as a clamp or wrench. But I'm by no means any kind of expert - I just like to try to understand why such tools were made the way they were.

Was that a "rant"? If so, sorry - but I get passionate about little things like this.

floodgate

[straightshooter1]

I think that is how I envisioned it working. In my way of thinking, with the gauge, the settings for different loads, once established, are repeatable. In other words, I sight it in for 190 grain cast boolits with 16 grains of 2400 at 100 yards. I can then shoot 152 grain pulled GI condoms, and return to the exact POI for the cast when I want, right? No more trying to get the slider exactly where it is supposed to go, shoot, ooops it's a little high, lower it, shoot, ooops now it's down too low, etc.

Bob

[oksmle]

flooddgate & straightshooter1 .... You both are right on.... oksmle

[straightshooter1]

Got my gauge today. WOW! Ray-Vin ships fast! Probably will be a couple of weeks before I can try it out. Think I have it figured out. Really looking forward to this!
Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Got my gauge today. WOW! Ray-Vin ships fast! Probably will be a couple of weeks before I can try it out. Think I have it figured out. Really looking forward to this!
Bob

Got mine yesterday and WOW is right, maybe double WOW!!!! The instructions are very good and adjustments are crisp 1/2 MOA. The instructions give two methods of use, I played with both last night on my Mark I. Both methods are very repeatable but is better than the other (in my limited tests anyway).

First method is that described by flodgate; "reset the micrometer to the desired range, set it in place, and move the slider by hand until it was stopped by the "claws" on the O'Hare, or by the "foot" and lock-nut on the Ideal and then lock it tight." It works well that way but I believe the second method may be the more accurate method.

The second method is; reset the micrometer a few clicks BELOW the desired range setting and move the slider down on the claws as in the first method. However instead of tightening the slider lock you hold the slide down against the claws and click up to the desired range setting. I found if I slightly tightened the lock just enough that the slider moves without undue resistance and then clicked up I got very repeatable results. I did this numerous times and measured the settings with a real micrometer. They were spot on every time where as the first method could vary by +/- 1 moa woth of adjustment.

The amount of error with the first method depended on how consistant I was in holding the slider down. I was fairly consistant but had the rifle held in a vise. If I was laying prone wrapped in the sling and had the time working against me I'm not sure I'd be all that consistant or accurate with the first wethod. I shall practice with the second method.

Intersting to find the VIC micrometer will also work quite well on the tang sight of my H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor.

Larry Gibson

[straightshooter1]

I've been using the reproduction (or is it replica) by Ray-Vin for about three weeks and I am thrilled. It makes it so easy to get the shots in the x-ring, and is great for me since I use both cast and condoms and three or four different Springfields when I go to the range.

Also, not only is the gauge really well made and pretty cool looking, Ray-Vin shipped it real fast. This is another of those tools you (at least I do) wonder how I ever got along without it.


Bob

[Bob S]

The second method is; reset the micrometer a few clicks BELOW the desired range setting and move the slider down on the claws as in the first method. However instead of tightening the slider lock you hold the slide down against the claws and click up to the desired range setting. I found if I slightly tightened the lock just enough that the slider moves without undue resistance and then clicked up I got very repeatable results. I did this numerous times and measured the settings with a real micrometer. They were spot on every time where as the first method could vary by +/- 1 moa woth of adjustment.

Intersting to find the VIC micrometer will also work quite well on the tang sight of my H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor.

Larry Gibson

That is the method that was taught to me (independently) by two shooters who were Camp Perry regulars in the 1930's

It also works ok on the Krag M1901 sight.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[shooter2]

Given all the rave reviews I ordered a sight setting micrometer and, have to say, I am well pleased. I suppose one could get by without a gauge if you only shot one load, but given what I do where nearly every load is different, in trying to find some favorites, this device is a must. And, what a pleasure it is to use. Well designed and executed. Ray, you are my hero! Now, I only have to find that magic recipe that puts all bullets into nice tight clusters.

Along these lines, does anyone know what after market modifications are allowed in competition? I am thinking about a globe front and a Timney trigger.

Many thanks to all...

[Bob S]

Along these lines, does anyone know what after market modifications are allowed in competition? I am thinking about a globe front and a Timney trigger.

Many thanks to all...

It depends on what sort of "competition" you are considering. If it is CMP-rules "Vintage Military Rifle" shooting, the answer is "none". If you are willing to shoot against the AR-derivative "space guns" and Tubb 2K's, you can do anything you want, as long as it's safe. The modifications you mentioned would put you in the NRA "Match Rifle" category (with the aforemetioned hot rod rifles).

Lots of local clubs run a sort of "vintage competition", where the rules are not as stringent as the CMP rules; but for those, you will have to ask the local match director.

You can use the Ray-Vin "O'Hare" micrometer in the CMP matches because it is removed from the rifle before firing.

Resp'y,
Bob S.