Newbie ??s CB in 6.5x55

[Mausermeister]

Hello all,
I've been lurking here for some time trying to glean some knowledge before trying CBs. A while back I bought some reloading components and dies at an estate sale. Included in the lot were 210 of these...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1005Image0001.jpg

.266" 144g bullets lubed with gas checks.

I really want to try some reduced loads in my 96 Swedes with these. All three rifles are in excellent condition with good headspace, excellent bores and great shooters with full power loads with jacket bullets.

I want to try loading a few CB's this evening to try at my next range trip, but have a few things I want to get clear first.

I will be using Alliant 2400 powder.

1) What is a good starting point for this powder? I've been reading of problems with keyholing at lower charges in 6.5x55 due to low velocity. I was thinking of starting at 17g and working up in .5g increments from there. Right, wrong, stupid? You tell me.

2) How do I determine overall length? Load a dummy rounds and play with length until it just does touches the lands and back off a few thousandths?

3) Standard or magnum primers?

4) From what I've read I don't need a filler with low charges of 2400, correct?

Thanks in advance for your responses and any other good advice will be appreciated.

[45 2.1]

Hello all,
I've been lurking here for some time trying to glean some knowledge before trying CBs. A while back I bought some reloading components and dies at an estate sale. Included in the lot were 210 of these...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1005Image0001.jpg

.266" 144g bullets lubed with gas checks. Should be about 0.268", but for low velocity these will do fine.

I really want to try some reduced loads in my 96 Swedes with these. All three rifles are in excellent condition with good headspace, excellent bores and great shooters with full power loads with jacket bullets. Remember to clean out the jacket fouling before trying cast.

I want to try loading a few CB's this evening to try at my next range trip, but have a few things I want to get clear first.

I will be using Alliant 2400 powder. Try about 18 gr. of 2400 (which is a top end load for this powder). 11.3 gr. of Unique for a lower velocity will work fine also.

1) What is a good starting point for this powder? I've been reading of problems with keyholing at lower charges in 6.5x55 due to low velocity. I was thinking of starting at 17g and working up in .5g increments from there. Right, wrong, stupid? You tell me. Some of the information you've read is offbase. See above.

2) How do I determine overall length? Load a dummy rounds and play with length until it just does touches the lands and back off a few thousandths? In your Swedes, try seating the base of the boolit at the bottom of the case neck.

3) Standard or magnum primers? Standard rifle primers.

4) From what I've read I don't need a filler with low charges of 2400, correct? 2400 is position sensitive, either tip your rifle up before each shot or put in a tuft of dacron.

Thanks in advance for your responses and any other good advice will be appreciated.

[Mausermeister]

Thanks, 45 2.1

Do I need to roll crimp with seater die as with jacketed bullets or use my lee crimp die?

[45 2.1]

Thanks, 45 2.1

Do I need to roll crimp with seater die as with jacketed bullets or use my lee crimp die?

Lee used to (maybe they still do) offer a rifle taper crimp die. These work fine with loads like this and some powders need this treatment and some don't. With either of these it would be good to taper crimp slightly.

[XBT]

I’m using that same boolit, gas checked and lubed with 50/50 in two Swedes. I use standard LR primers and no fillers. Using 18 grns. of 2400 the velocity is 1785 in my 96/38.

I seat the boolit out so that the top two grease groves are uncovered (and unlubed). If I seat them any deeper I lose accuracy.

[Mausermeister]

I had a little time this afternoon, so I loaded up 20 rounds and tried them out.
18gr Alliant 2400
Winchester LR primer
Swede M96 29.5" barrel
Shot this Swede M96 with diopter sights after really cleaning the bore well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1005Image0001-1.jpg

Although recoil was light and made for pleasant shooting, the first four shots did not impress me with their 16" pattern at 100 yards. But apparently it tightened up after fouling the bore because the next three shot group dropped to about 8". After that I put up another target and fired the last 13 rounds with the following results.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1005Image0002.jpg

I've shot sub MOA groups with this rifle several times before, but today's overcast sky did not give good light for shooting the old peep sight.
I fired the last 10 rounds across the chrony and average velocity was 1949.6 fps.

I may be hooked. Gotta find some more of these CBs. I've only got 190 left.

[waksupi]

Well, I KNOW better than to tell you to slow down the loads a bit if you want better accuracy. There will be some people show up shortly that say it is a piece of cake to shoot the Swede fast. And it is possible, and only slightly harder than making a lesbian salmon swim upstream to spawn.

[Maven]

Mausermeister, Have you tried that bullet over 15 or 16grs. Alliant 2400? The reason I ask is that many here, including me, have found that accuracy decreases as velocity exceeds 1,750fps in the Swe. Mau. maybe because of the fast twist. Also, have you slugged the bore of your rifle, as it may turn out that the .266" bullet is a tad small for it?

[dubber123]

In case you wondered, I'm pretty sure that is the Lyman 266469. Get an older one if you can. The newer ones are reported to be on the small side. My older one casts at .268".

[Mausermeister]

I've never cast a bullet before. The closest I've come is melting down some old wheel weights in a cast iron pot over a propane burner to pour some decoy weights. After checking prices of equipment, molds, etc. I guess I will have to either purchase some CBs from someone else or stick with jacketed bullets until I can find some equipment cheap at a yard sale or something.

[carpetman]

If the other 209 bullets have as many holes and voids as that one pictured has--you must be a very good shot to get a 16" group.

[runfiverun]

i was thinking some lube could help too.

[Mausermeister]

If the other 209 bullets have as many holes and voids as that one pictured has--you must be a very good shot to get a 16" group.

There aren't any holes or voids. You must be seeing shadows from the camera flash or something. The lube has dried a bit and is crumbling some. I don't now how old they were when I got them, but I've had them over a year. And shooting on a sunny day where I can actually make out the bull in the sight ring should help the group size also.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In loading for the 6.5 I learned right away that if you drive cast bullets too fast then you won't get good accuracy. Too fast=pretty much over 1600 fps. Wiith a 140 grain bullet I got much better results with the following; 16 grains of either IMR 4227 or IMR 4198.....around 1500fps or....19 grains of IMR 4895 @around 1500fps. I've never tried 2400 which is a good powder and it will probably work well if tinkered with. Variables to be tried include seating depth, crimp and raising the muzzle before each shot to keep the powder in the ear of the case. A good lube also helps. It'll take some time, ecperimentation and patience, but you will succeed. LLS

[carpetman]

ok no holes or voids--I must know you--musta taught you how to shoot if shooting 16" groups.

[45 2.1]

Well, I KNOW better than to tell you to slow down the loads a bit if you want better accuracy. Ric, now thats a good suggestion, but not necessary providing you know how. There will be some people show up shortly that say it is a piece of cake to shoot the Swede fast. And it is possible Yes, you are correct again....., and only slightly harder than making a lesbian salmon swim upstream to spawn. Darn, the third try was incorrect. If the way you do it doesn't work, perhaps you could try another way or ask instruction on how to acomplish it.

It is quite possible to shoot any of the correctly designed 6.5 boolits (that includes the cruise missle) up to and past 2300 fps with excellent accuracy. The only problem is in the ability and methodology of the person trying it. I imagine someone will be along sometime in the near future to post pictures and chronograph results showing this.

[Jim]

.... There will be some people show up shortly that say it is a piece of cake to shoot the Swede fast. And it is possible, and only slightly harder than making a lesbian salmon swim upstream to spawn.

You got that right.

[45 2.1]

You got that right.

Some people are stubborn, missinformed and believe if they can't do it, then nobody can. Might you be one of those folks?

[waksupi]

Yep, same ol' suckers float to the top. Gotta flush twice!
Notice this always goes to bore size, rather than specific rifle, ie; Swede? Still waiting on that.

[45 2.1]

Yep, same ol' suckers float to the top. Gotta flush twice!


Hey, one of the folks I just said something about. Ya'll have a good day now.

Addition: Yep, Ric. It is a standard Swede military rifle with no barrel or throating alterations other than those done by the Swedes theirselves. Most of the M38s were cut down from the M96s. Been done in the M96 and M38.

Attached is a target shot at 100 yds with two different boolits (the Buckshot GB & the cruise missle), both types were cull boolits (simply because they were fireforming loads) and were both going over 2300 fps. Explain it away if you can....................

[Jim]

Some people are stubborn, missinformed and believe if they can't do it, then nobody can. Might you be one of those folks?

Jeesh, 45, that's kinda' rough, ain't it? I never figured you to hit me like that.

[45 2.1]

Jeesh, 45, that's kinda' rough, ain't it? I never figured you to hit me like that.

Sorry if it seems rough. My apologies on that. Lots has been said on the Swede subject, most from people who haven't put the time in to make it perform. Lots of people say its BS, because they can't do it theirselves. It can be done though.

[Jim]

Oh, I have no doubt it can be done. I also have no doubt there are rifles that will cooperate with experimentation and there are rifles that won't. Just 'cause one fella says it can't be done don't make it so and vise versa. As for me, I have no forkin' clue. I'm just gettin' started with this caliber and I have a very long road to go down.
I read a lot. I just don't say much.

[462]

I hope this 6.5 Swede thread becomes as much fun and humorous to follow as the last one, which went on for about 8 pages.

[Jim]

I made the mistake of getting involved in the first one. I'm gonna try not to let that happen again unless I really need to ask an honest question.

[Mausermeister]

I'm at it again. This morning after work I went to the loading bench and rolled a few more. Ten rounds each in half grain increments from 16.0 gr to 18.0 gr. I also played with seating depth and have the bullet .015" from engaging the lands. I only neck sized brass fired in that rifle. I also cleaned the bore again.

Tomorrow morning after work I will try them out. I plan to shoot one round of each charge to foul the bore, then shoot 3 round groups working up, then down, then up again the charges. This way I can minimize any effect of bore fouling buildup from one to the other. I will also chrono each group to determine velocity and see if it changes as the bore fouls from one group to the next. Hopefully the sun will be out so I can get a better sight picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1007Image0002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1007Image0001.jpg

[StarMetal]

I'm at it again. This morning after work I went to the loading bench and rolled a few more. Ten rounds each in half grain increments from 16.0 gr to 18.0 gr. I also played with seating depth and have the bullet .015" from engaging the lands. I only neck sized brass fired in that rifle. I also cleaned the bore again.

Tomorrow morning after work I will try them out. I plan to shoot one round of each charge to foul the bore, then shoot 3 round groups working up, then down, then up again the charges. This way I can minimize any effect of bore fouling buildup from one to the other. I will also chrono each group to determine velocity and see if it changes as the bore fouls from one group to the next. Hopefully the sun will be out so I can get a better sight picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1007Image0002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1007Image0001.jpg

Little tip about lube. Lube has to season (or condition)the bore. So it takes so many shots, depending on the lube, to do this. Until it's seasoned and stable, you won't know what a lube will really do. Believe me, I learned this the hard way.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Joe and I agree again! This is getting weird.

I ventured the same "lube seasoning the bore" idea in another thread a couple months back. I was told it was pure poppycock by another guy named Joe.

[Mausermeister]

Crap! It's raining, again. No boom-boom for me today.:-(

[madsenshooter]

I'm not sure about bore seasoning, though it was the way I once thought. A few weeks ago I competed in a Cast Bullet Association match. I won my class with my Krag because I was the only one shooting in the military class. All the others were shooting big benchrest rifles that shot itty bitty groups and scores of 200 out of a possible 200. They were all giving their rifles a quick cleaning between strings. Perhaps a near pristine bore ought to be kept that way, but an old milsurp bore should be seasoned.

[Dutchman]

Do yourself a favor and start shooting at 50 yards until you find better load levels and improve your bench shooting technique.

Your starting load with 2400 is too high. Start at 12-13-14 grains. I'm not seeing load data in any of my books for 2400 and the 140 gr. but it is listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet manual for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer starting at 12 grains.

Lyman 140 gr Loverin .266" with 10.5 grs Unique @ 50 yards @ 1,500 fps. I seat cast bullets to touch and use a Lee factory crimp die and a light to moderate crimp. No filler using Unique. (I don't use filler with 2400 either). You'll find it hard to find another powder that gives better accuracy than Unique loaded as above.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1580/photos/2/28344/157842/65x55140105Unique1b-vi.jpg

[Mausermeister]

I'm pretty sure my shooting technique is not the problem. Fifteen years ago I shot at least one high-power and one benchrest match a month. I know I'm out of practice now, but I haven't forgotten how. The problem is what used to be 190 lbs of pure muscle and sinew with 20/13 vision and no worries or responsibilities and all kinds of free time to devote to shooting and loading is now 235 lbs of flab with rapidly deteriorating 20/17 vision with astigmatism (last checked 2 yrs ago and I can tell it's gotten worse since) wife & 2 young daughters working 60+ hrs a week and smoking who doesn't have time to shoot more than once or twice every two or three months even though I have my own 500 yard range on the farm I own less than a mile from the house. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with telescopic sights for for anything resembling precision shooting from now on. This is blasphemy for me since I have always preferred diopter sights for recreational shooting.

On a brighter note, I did get a break in the weather yesterday afternoon and did a bit of shooting. Velocities ranged from 1738 fps on the 16.0 gr load to 1917 fps on the 18.0 gr load. I fired three groups of three from every load at 100 yards. There was no keyholing on any targets, so bullet is stable through the velocity range. Best 3 round group was 1.9" on the 18.0 gr load, worst was 4.6" on the 17.5 gr load, but honestly there was no appreciable difference throughout the load ranges. However I'm pretty sure the lack of accuracy was mostly operator error, see above for explanation.

[Bret4207]

Isn't growing older fun? I'm in the same boat as you- I know how to shoot, my body just doesn't want to co-operate.

[StarMetal]

I'm not sure about bore seasoning, though it was the way I once thought. A few weeks ago I competed in a Cast Bullet Association match. I won my class with my Krag because I was the only one shooting in the military class. All the others were shooting big benchrest rifles that shot itty bitty groups and scores of 200 out of a possible 200. They were all giving their rifles a quick cleaning between strings. Perhaps a near pristine bore ought to be kept that way, but an old milsurp bore should be seasoned.

There's a difference between cleaning to pristine clean to absolute clean bore then a quick cleaning the bench rest boys do. Sometimes when I shoot quite a few rounds through my barrel I'll take a clean bronze brush that fits loose with no solvents and run it through the bore.

If they are cleaning pristine then they shoot from the same exact conditions all the time. Unless we are just bench shooting our cast rifles that's impractical.



Joe

[Char-Gar]

Ho boy... here we go again! Same song another verse, could get better, but it going to get worse.

[StarMetal]

Ho boy... here we go again! Same song another verse, could get better, but it going to get worse.

Either that or you're trying to get it going because you're the only one going at the moment.

I feel we're having a pretty decent discussion so far.

Joe

[Mausermeister]

I'm just trying to learn a bit about loading and shooting CBs, not start an argument. Unfortunately it seems my choice of favorite caliber turns out to be one of the most difficult to do it with. Daddy always said I had to do everything the hard way.

[Larry Gibson]

Mausermeister

I'm not going to get into another "discussion" with those who claim 2300 fps with cast bullets with excellent accuracy in a 6.5 Swede M36/96 is "possible" but who fail to tell us how.

However, I will tell you how to get much better accuracy with that bullet in your rifle than you are currently getting. As mentioned, slow it down. I also suggest you try some Unique powder. If you do try 9 - 10.5 gr in 1/2 gr increments. Shoot at the same 100 yards. Lift the barrel about 45 degrees before firing to "position" the powder. I also will suggest you initially use 5 shot strings. My testing over 40 years does not show that "conditioning" improves accuracy. However in many rifles with rougher bores like milsurps 2-3 "foulers" are necessary for best accuracy. Thus i suggest you shoot 2-3 foulers of 9 gr Unique before beginning the test of the additional strings with no additional cleaning between this limited number of strings/shots.

If you really want to use 2400 then I suggest a 3/4 gr dacron filler be used to keep the powder positioned for better ignition. As Dutchman stated use 12-14 gr in 1 gr increments (with the filler). Your velocities with your other 2400 loads are just too high.

Given your previous shooting experience, even with the adversities of age creeping in, and that you can shoot moa or so groups with that rifle with J bullets then there is no reason you can't shoot cast bullets well. Just remember the M96 has a long lock time and a heavy "clunk" when the striker hits home which disturbs aim. With velocities down in the 1300-1500 fps range (where best accuracy can be easiest found) there is also a long barrel time. Given the longer barrel time and the "clunk" of the striker plus longer lock time it is necessary to "hard Hold" the Swede for best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Mausermeister

I'm not going to get into another "discussion" with those who claim 2300 fps with cast bullets with excellent accuracy in a 6.5 Swede M36/96 is "possible" but who fail to tell us how.

Larry Gibson

I agree. There is absolutely no credibility in the claims. For all the past discussion, it would have been less time consuming to state the methods used, and let all be the judge.

[Char-Gar]

I don't think we will come to consensus on how much, how often and how to season a cast bullet barrel. That like our salvation must be worked out with "fear and trembling".

I have come to peace with the issue for my own shooting. When the day is over, I run patches wet with Ed's Red through the bore until they come clean. Takes 3 to 6 depending on..well just depending. I then run a couple of dry patches down until they come clean. Usually another three or four. I then run a patch wet with Break-Free down the bore for protection.

Next time at the range it will take 3 to 6 rounds before the rifle settles down and starts to do it's best. This is probably not the correct way, but it is my way and it seems to work for me. It flushes the worst crap out of the barrel and I don't loose all of the season. I don't worry about rust between range sessions. I wont use a bronze brush anymore.

[StarMetal]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/SwedeClose.jpghttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/SwedeFar.jpg

What is this? Is it a K98 Mauser? No Is it K31 Swiss? No Hmmmm Mosin Nagant? No Darn 30-40 Krag? Nope Oh My God! It's a 96 Swede.

Just got it and I'm not the one to modify it. It came with the turned down bolt handle, Timney trigger, and D&T'ed. Just what I was looking for with my bad eyes.

Stay tuned for coming attractions.

Waksupi,

You're wrong, very wrong what you say about the claims.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Joe

Nice rifle. I'm sure we'll see feats of awesome accuracy at screeching velocities. But the question is......will you tell us how you do it (the actual specifics of the load)so someone else can accomplish your truely amazing feats of accuracy at high velocity? It would be nice if someone else could verify your truely inspiring claims. Probably won't tell us though.....you've already told us it is too dangerous for us ordinary and common cast bullet folk to use......

Larry Gibson

[Mausermeister]

I just finished another batch with charges from 14.0 gr to 16.0 gr in 1/2 gr increments. This time after loading I cleaned the lube out of the exposed grooves with a nylon brush, then wiped the bullets with a clean patch smeared with a little of the lube.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/2009_1009Image0001.jpg

Maybe I can try them tomorrow morning if this rain stops tonight and I can slip away before the wife finds me something to do.

Here's my favorite hunting rifle which I built a few years ago...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Mausermeister/twede1.jpg

Turk Mauser 98 action
Bold Optima trigger with side safety
FN-style bolt shroud
Speedlock firing pin & spring
Argentine '09 hinged floorplate triggerguard
New surplus Swede M96 barrel cut to 22" with 11 degree target crown
Richard's Microfit laminated stock
Action bedded, floating barrel
Bushnell Yardage Pro 4-12x42 scope

This rifle is capable of 1 1/4" groups at 200 yards all day long with my handloads. Too bad the days I'm capable of it are becoming fewer and farther between.

I have taken over twenty deer with it at ranges from 75 to 460 yards and more than one song dog past 500.

I have several factory sporting rifles in different calibers, but none will shoot as consistantly accurate as this one.

[StarMetal]

That's a nice rifle. They do shoot very well. I've had a few friends that just took the stock military Swede and scoped them and they shot jacketed better then most factory rifles shot their modern rounds.

Funny, what part of TN are you in? I've over in Unicoi county and it's just been really nice here lately. All to change on Saturday I've heard.

By the way what diameter does that bullet cast out for you?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I'm sure you figured it out by the high grade profession target paper that 45 2.1 that it was my target. That was made with two different bullets, the Kurtz and the Cruise Missile. Both over the same powder and same load. I fired the Kurtz first and was positive that I didn't need to change my target out because surely the Cruise Missile being much heavier , longer, different...would print to an entirely different spot. It didn't. It's in the center of that group. The four that are close together and with pairs being one hole over top the other are the Cruise Missile. Now what I don't know, and wished now I'd set a new target, is which of the bottom two holes is the Cruise Missile. I believe it to be the bottom left as looking at the real target the Kurtz cuts a more perfect and larger piece out of the paper. Either way that's 3/4 inch group.

So you see folks it can be done. When I get somemore powder and Cruise Missile I'll do Larry's required five consecutive 5 shot groups with chrono pictures. By the way I've had some of those 6.5 bullets up to 2500 fps. From the very beginning to now, all the loads I've shot just fooling around, sighting the scope in, gathering data...would have easily killed a ground hog at 100 yards. Some, such as you saw the Cruise Missile here, much smaller groups at HV. All these out of long barrel slow lock time 96 Swede and I'll tell you that I didn't bear into holding the rifle tight such as Larry recommended. I now have a 6.5 Grendel, 260 Remington, 6.5x54MS, and a 6.5x55 Swede that shoot accurately at HV.

I got the lessons and technique from 45 2.1. Not to lay this on him, but in order to preserve my friendship with him, I'm not telling you what the technique is.....but I do believe I can tell you it is forthcoming. Be patience.

One last thing. Don't any of you believe there is a low limit on velocity at what a Swede has to be shot at for accuracy. Do believe it if you don't know how to get it to shoot at HV.

Joe

[Mausermeister]

That's a nice rifle. They do shoot very well. I've had a few friends that just took the stock military Swede and scoped them and they shot jacketed better then most factory rifles shot their modern rounds.

Funny, what part of TN are you in? I've over in Unicoi county and it's just been really nice here lately. All to change on Saturday I've heard.

By the way what diameter does that bullet cast out for you?

Joe

Joe,
I'm in Madison County in West TN. I have a brother who lives in Johnson City and a sister in Vonore. I usually get up that way a couple times a year to visit. I always try to stop by Farnsworth's and Wideners when I'm up there.
Richard

[StarMetal]

Joe,
I'm in Madison County in West TN. I have a brother who lives in Johnson City and a sister in Vonore. I usually get up that way a couple times a year to visit. I always try to stop by Farnsworth's and Wideners when I'm up there.
Richard

Richard,

I'm 25 mins from Johnson City. Bad news my friend, Wideners shut their retail doors, they are strictly mail order now. I'd be more then happy to have lunch with you and talk guns. Just pm me when you thing you will be in the area, we'll go from there.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I wanted to get out and test a new powder before this weather from moves in. I'm out of my normal powder I've been testing the Swede with, so I though I'll try 4350 of the Accurate flavor. First I cleaned the barrel thoroughly as I've shot a lot of rounds through it. I loaded up 30 grains of the 4350 in WRA 53 military cases using a Wolf large rifle primer. The bullet was the Kurtz (the one with the more flat nose as I didn't get in on the group buy) cast and provided by 45 2.1. They are 50/50 WW/lead alloy and air cooled. They have ages for quite some time. I went out and shot them and as expected the first cold clean barrel shot went high over the bull. I have the target here. Funny one bullet went into the note paper binder hole and took me a while to find it. I thought well this isn't a good group. Went back to the shop and loaded five more with 31 grains of 4350. Well you can see the difference. Five bullets into one ragged hole (there you go Carpetman, just for you buddy) and it measures 1/2 inch center to center. The velocity was 2200 fps for 211200 rpm.

Waksupi doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the Swede nor does he know how to make one shoot with cast accurately at high velocity. Larry Gibson knows a lot more then Waksupi. How about those bending bullets waksupi? Oh they have to be pure tin huh? How do you explain this group at HV and high rpm? You're welcome to come out to TN sometime and I'll show you the rifle and myself actually shooting groups like that.

Larry, you have the potential to do this. All of you do. You won't do it listening to the nay sayers like waksupi though. 45 2.1 taught me how to do it, so please don't ask me what the technique is. Maybe Bob will eventually tell. I'm working on him in that area.

How many more 6.5 caliber rifles to I have to shoot now Larry?

Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Swede4350.jpg

[StarMetal]

I've left out something I told you all I would tell you if the results proved out in this Swede rifle. I told you that I made a new lube. I used this lube for these Swede tests. I can't think of a better test for a lube then the Swedes fast twist and deep rifling at HV. Here's the lube:

It's equal amounts of Ivory bar soap and beeswax with about two tablespoons of Caster oil. The beeswax should be the same size of the Ivory soap. I grind my Ivory soap up in my food processor. I melt the beeswax first. Now pay attention to this part. When you melt Ivory soap it foams and expands a lot. So whatever container you melt in, made sure it's tall or big enough. Throw in your caster oil anytime. Now keep stirring that melting foaming blend. You will think that it's going to stay foamy and expanded, but faster then you can blink your eye all the sudden the foam disappears and you see a hot liquid. Right away take it off the heat it's done. You can color too if you wish at any time during the melting. My blend comes out fairly hard and is just on the verge of needing a heater. That's what I've been shooting the Swede with and I think that last group speaks highly of the lube. I see nothing in my barrel, but just powder carbon and with many shots.

Joe

[waksupi]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;686383]

Waksupi doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the Swede nor does he know how to make one shoot with cast accurately at high velocity. Larry Gibson knows a lot more then Waksupi. How about those bending bullets waksupi? Oh they have to be pure tin huh?


Agreed, I don't know how to shoot one at high velocity.

You refer to the bending bullets, and pure tin. You take that entirely out of context, as that test was strictly for accuracy in the 3000 fps range, with that particular metal.
So far, still no credibility for methodology.

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;686383]

Waksupi doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the Swede nor does he know how to make one shoot with cast accurately at high velocity. Larry Gibson knows a lot more then Waksupi. How about those bending bullets waksupi? Oh they have to be pure tin huh?


Agreed, I don't know how to shoot one at high velocity.

You refer to the bending bullets, and pure tin. You take that entirely out of context, as that test was strictly for accuracy in the 3000 fps range, with that particular metal.
So far, still no credibility for methodology.

Fair enough Ric.

Joe

[swheeler]

Joe that's a nice looking Swede! Looks like that 31 gr load will need a little tweaking though, that one hole is a little out there and only at 2200-cheeeeeeeeeeez!

[StarMetal]

Joe that's a nice looking Swede! Looks like that 31 gr load will need a little tweaking though, that one hole is a little out there and only at 2200-cheeeeeeeeeeez!

You are right Scot. If I'm going to go prairie flea hunting I'll have to tighten that group up some. :groner:

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

You continue to mistate what I say. Once again it appears you have pushed the RPM threshold (remember I always said it could be done) and it appears you have followed the steps I outlined in a previous thread. Congradulations on doing just what I said could be done.

Unless there is some "secret" to your methodology that you are not telling us about I'm assuming that this "technique" you are talking about is the one you and 45 2.1 insist is "too dangerous" for the rest of us to know about?

You might also consider that many consider "HV" to be when cast bullets equal their J bullet counterprts velocity. However, I do agree that any time you get cast bullets in a rifle up into the 2000+ fps range you are in the realm of "HV" for cast bullets.

You also continue to hijack these threads to show us all that you and 45 2.1 are so much smarter than the rest of us. You always shoot your cast bullets faster and more accurately than the rest of us. So okay, we know that now. But just what the heck does your posts have to do with helping Mausermeister shoot his already cast and lubed 266469s more accurately with 2400 powder? Absolutely nothing Joe and that is the topic of this thread. If you can't help answer the question why don't you just start a thread titled "Starmetal knows the secret and you all don't, hah, hah!". Then you can continue to bragg all by yourself without hijacking someone else's thread and constantly interupting genuine topics with your "I can do it at HV but you can't" stuff. It may just surprise you to know that most cast bullet shooters are not interested in HV loads, making their own lube by getting in trouble from the wife using the blender to grind soap and stinking up the kitchen. Most cast bullet shooters are interested in making economical cast bullet loads without too much fuss that are just fun to shoot.

Mausmeister had a limited number of 266469 cast bullets and was just interested in an accurate load using 2400 powder in his 6.5 Swede rifle. Can you help with that? If not and you want to continue to harangue us at least then tell us the methodology (Don't come back with the same lame excuse about it being 45 2.1s. You are the one using it and spouting how effective it is.) so those of us interested in HV loads can validate your consistent, with every rifle and cartridge you have, HV accuracy.

BTW: you probably should patent that "wonder lube" as it obviously out does every other lube known to mankind.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

It helps in that it's telling the loader that he's not limited to low velocity loads only out of the Swede, or any fast twist rifle/caliber for that matter, that many of you would have sworn on the Bible was not at all possible. I'll have to say that at least Waksupi manned up and said he can't do it. You on the other hand, like a bottom feeder politician, are persistent and devious in your means to get Bob and I to tell you how it's done. Perhaps when Mausermeister travels to Johnson to see his brother I'll invite him down and show him how to do it.

So now I have more then one, two, three, or more exceptional rifles huh Larry? I don't think so, I think that I know how to reload cast for them to make them perform. I will admit that went I got to the faster twists 6.5's that Bob helped me immensely.

My next task is show you all how to shoot the famous Cruise Missile at HV with accuracy.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

As to the lube, as I was talking to 45nut about, I merely said that I was working on a new lube and if it performed well I would post it. Further more if you've been following my posts I promote 357maximum's new lube over all others. In no post have I said my new lube was a wonder lube. You do have to admit I blew your theory, and many others, on the Swede not shooting HV with accuracy quite well out of the water....with my lube, plus, my gas checks, and Bob's bullets.

Don't be such a sore loser Larry. The lube is mine and I told everyone what it is and how to make it.

Let's see what your MexSwede will do.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

As to the lube, as I was talking to 45nut about, I merely said that I was working on a new lube and if it performed well I would post it. Further more if you've been following my posts I promote 357maximum's new lube over all others. In no post have I said my new lube was a wonder lube. You do have to admit I blew your theory, and many others, on the Swede not shooting HV with accuracy quite well out of the water....with my lube, plus, my gas checks, and Bob's bullets.

Don't be such a sore loser Larry. The lube is mine and I told everyone what it is and how to make it.

Let's see what your MexSwede will do.

Joe

I may be a local bottom feeder but I really resent being called a "politician"!

You did not blow my theory out of the water, you merely validated what 've been saying all along on how to push the RPM threshold. The RPM threshold is still valid. It just is not a "limit" which you seem just can not understand.

But enough of all that. It would be nice if you would share the information with the rest of us on the methodology you and 45 2.1 use. That may be a "persistant" request but there is nothing "devious" about it. It is rather straight forward. But alas since you won't share I guess the rest of us nere-do-wells will just have to be stuck with low velocity loads. I guess my 2500+ fps .308W loads are just to mundane for you since I use a 14" twist barrel to do it. Oh well, that's about run this one out for me.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I may be a local bottom feeder but I really resent being called a "politician"!

You did not blow my theory out of the water, you merely validated what 've been saying all along on how to push the RPM threshold. The RPM threshold is still valid. It just is not a "limit" which you seem just can not understand. Come on Larry, the threshold post started out on a hold different idea of yours. Then when challenge, as usual, you make excuses (my rifle is one of the exceptions to mention one), then you change the rules. Then in the next paragraph you say "...but enough of all that" after you get to keep going and expect us not too.

But enough of all that. It would be nice if you would share the information with the rest of us on the methodology you and 45 2.1 use. That may be a "persistant" request but there is nothing "devious" about it. It is rather straight forward. But alas since you won't share I guess the rest of us nere-do-wells will just have to be stuck with low velocity loads. I guess my 2500+ fps .308W loads are just to mundane for you since I use a 14" twist barrel to do it. Oh well, that's about run this one out for me. As I have said talk to 45 2.1 about that.

Larry Gibson

You remind me of Larry's boss (ironic same name huh) in the old Bewitched show. Larry presents an idea to the business customer while his boss is present. Before the customer can speak Larry's boss jumps all over the idea and runs it thoroughly into the ground. Then the customer speaks and just loves it. Here's the important part and lesson in this little story. Then Larry's boss applauds the idea and talking real positive about it as though earlier he didn't say anything negative to it. That's you Larry...now you've changed your tune and said the Swede can be shot a HV. Yeah, well once again, let's see you do it.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

A long time ago in the hills of Kentucky, I heard an old woman say.."You can't no more give away what you ain't got, than you can come back from where you ain't been!".

When I read these 6.5/rpm/secret technique/ threads those words from the hollar seem to come back to me. The wisdom of the simple is often the wisdom of the ages.

[45 2.1]

When I read these 6.5/rpm/secret technique/ threads those words from the hollar seem to come back to me. The wisdom of the simple is often the wisdom of the ages.

I can assure you that you already have the knowledge, as do many many others, of how to shoot HV with a Swede or other rifles accurately. The short circuit is you don't have the understanding of how to do so, not that that interests you anyway. The information needed to do this has been posted several times in the last three years. Charles, I thought you retired....................

[Char-Gar]

Bobby.

1. You are correct that I don't have any particular need or desire to run the Swede or any other cast bullet at high velocity.

2. Even though I don't have that need or desire, I am still interested in all things related to cast bullest and would like to know how. Knowledge for knowledge's sake still have value to me.

3. If all of this has been posted before, it seems to have passed unnoticed by not just me, but everybody else. Could you please give me the thread and number so I can look it up?

4. Your needle seems to be stuck in the "Knoweldge without understanding" groove. That appears to be your mantra and fall back position in these kinds of discussions. It sounds cute and Zen like but it has no traction in this issue.

5. I bear you no ill will as we have worked together very well in the past, but surely you must understand how you and Joe rub this board the wrong way on this issue. For the life of me I can't understand why you two continue to expose yourselfs in this way.

6. If you truly have such a technique you will be placed alongside of Keith, Whelen, Donaldson, Ackley and others who have moved the craft and science of shooting forward. We will all back up, apoligize and give you just and due credit.

7. Your excuse for not sharing you secret because itis to dangerous for us to handle is really laughable. There are many experienced, careful and prudent casters and loaders on this board whose exerience level is equal ot your.

8. YOu can lace any information with enough caveats and disclaimers to remove any potential liability you might fear.

9. You could also cherry pick by PM those you wish to share this with, if you are still afraid of how some folks would use this information. Unless you think nobody but you are Joe are trustworthy and prudent, which is how it appears. Frankly this is insulting and the principal reason you bring so much negativity down on your head.

10. I still remember your conflict with Oldfeller and your claims he stole information from you. That issue never was settled, but you got quite spun up about it. Is this kind of fear at the bottom of the whole mess?

11. The bottom line is if you and Joe can do something worth doing, then share it. If you don't choose to share it, then work in private and quit irritating others with the unproven brags and boasts.

12. If you chose to keep on keeping on with this silly game, then expect to be thought a arrogant windbag and don't get upset when it happens. You bring it on yourself. If you think folks are going to fall down before you as the guru of high velocity without facts that can be tested and replicated, that isn't going to happen.

13. I have retired, but I am still a meddling busybody for tis my nature.

[45 2.1]

1. You are correct that I don't have any particular need or desire to run the Swede or any other cast bullet at high velocity.
2. Even though I don't have that need or desire, I am still interested in all things related to cast bullest and would like to know how. Knowledge for knowledge's sake still have value to me.
3. If all of this has been posted before, it seems to have passed unnoticed by not just me, but everybody else. Could you please give me the thread and number so I can look it up?
I've made the offer several times, but some fellows misconstrue what was said. Again if you want to know, then contact me and we'll see what can be done.

4. Your needle seems to be stuck in the "Knoweldge
without understanding" groove. That appears to be your mantra and fall back position in these kinds of discussions. It sounds cute and Zen like but it has no traction in this issue. Many things in life can bite you severely if you don't know what your doing with it, same applies here.

5. I bear you no ill will as we have worked together very well in the past, but surely you must understand how you and Joe rub this board the wrong way on this issue. For the life of me I can't understand why you two continue to expose yourselfs in this way. There is more to this than meets the eye.

6. If you truly have such a technique you will be placed alongside of Keith, Whelen, Donaldson, Ackley and others who have moved the craft and science of shooting forward. We will all back up, apoligize and give you just and due credit. That would be a first, and something I don't believe would happen.

7. Your excuse for not sharing you secret because itis to dangerous for us to handle is really laughable. There are many experienced, careful and prudent casters and loaders on this board whose exerience level is equal ot your. You remember when the ammo companies brought out some jacketed 30 caliber ammo that gave 150 to 200 fps greater velocity than normal. They didn't say anything about how it was done. My method produces greater velocity, by quite a bit, than what the powder is capable of for the charge weight. Go look at Joes charge weight of 31 gr. of 4350 behind a 129 gr. cast boolit in the 6.5 Swede. See what the manuals say about it. Your going to say BS on the data. It does do it............... just how is part of the potential unsafe if somebody tries it without knowing how.

8. YOu can lace any information with enough caveats and disclaimers to remove any potential liability you might fear.
Enough gets revised and copied on the net to negate that and cause problems later.

9. You could also cherry pick by PM those you wish to share this with, if you are still afraid of how some folks would use this information. I've made the offer before to do that, nobody wants to do it that way. How about you? Unless you think nobody but you are Joe are trustworthy and prudent, which is how it appears. Frankly this is insulting and the principal reason you bring so much negativity down on your head.

10. I still remember your conflict with Oldfeller and your claims he stole information from you. That issue never was settled, but you got quite spun up about it. Is this kind of fear at the bottom of the whole mess? No, that is a matter of record listed by date and time about what happened.

11. The bottom line is if you and Joe can do something worth doing, the share it. I have, as have others, and nobody seems to have got it. The backup method was one on one and it works. Which would you use? The one that works or the one which didn't. If you don't choose to share it, then work in private and quit irritating others with the unproven brags and boasts. I do work in private. Have you not seen the HV 1/2" 6.5 Swede group that Joe posted, and the others?

12. If you chose to keep on keeping on with this silly game, then expect to be thought a arrogant windbag and don't get upset when it happens. You bring it on yourself. If you think folks are going to fall down before you as the guru of high velocity without facts that can be rested and replicated, then that isn't going to happen. Get real Charles, i've tried to show how it could be done for a few years and see you and others with blinders on. Talk about leading a horse to water, etc.

13. I have retired, but I am still a meddling busybody for tis my nature. Ha, the old Charles comes out. Good for you. Offer is still open, to you and others....................

[StarMetal]

Charger,

You have no idea of how much this has been rubbed into my nose that it can't be done. I'm sure Bob's too. I get lots of pm's both positive and negative about it. Just yesterday I got a pm from a rather new poster (whom I personally think is pretty sharp) that said he went back and read all of Bob's and mine posts on the 6.5 at high velocity and he said it was written right there and he figured it out.

I won't mention name, that seems to get me into trouble, but the nay sayers said it couldn't be done...flat out...couldn't be done. Let me refresh the memories of the forum here. Lots of reasons were brought up why this couldn't be done with the Swede and the
main focus was on rpm. Many thought the bullet was bending. That is what I threw back at Waksupi when I posted that group over the weekend. Ric said I took his bent bullet test out of context. Okay, I'll let that be. I'll have to say that Ric had the gonads to flat out say he that he admitted he could shoot the Swede at high velocity with accuracy. God Bless him. Ric I appreciate your honestly there and saying that. I know other members that would never admit that. Okay to refresh your memories this next gentleman I love and respect and no ways is derogatory against him. When talking about the Swede cast bullet bending was going on Beagle gave an analogy of putting a piece of copper wire in a variable drill and gradually spinning up the rpm. Eventually the wire will more or less become like a propeller...90 degrees to the axis of chuck. That's why I said what I did to Waksupi.

I've also got a pm from a member saying basically he didn't believe the group I shot from the Swede or any of my other ragged holes I've talked about or posted in the past. 45 2.1 repeatably tells me that's the number uno reason he won't post pictures of groups. I see his point. Charge I really sit here with a target and I turn myself different diameter pointed rods to poke holes in them. I also coat them with cigaretter soot to make the edges of the holes black like bullets do to the target. Yeah, unhuh, really. I would never do that. There is no honor in anything if you don't do it honestly and fair. I honestly shot those groups. I dragged out my chrono and 25 rounds of ammo and shot those groups for Larry when he said a good show would be five consecutive 5 shot groups. Like I told 45 2.1 the only way I could prove that without you all being there is to have a series of video camera's showing the me shooting, the chrono reading, and bullet impacting the target all on a split picture. I shot them.

Now I wasn't going to say anything but I shot the first good Cruise Missiles. What I mean by good is that the bullets were among some of the best castings I've ever seen. Not to butter up the caster one bit, that's the truth, and the caster was 45 2.1. I won't post the target, but Bob urged me to mention it saying the group was respectable for the Missile. It was a little over 1 inch group at 2339 fps.

That's it, that is all there is too it. I'm done. No longer will I rub any of this in anyone's face. When if Bob decides he wants to tell of the procedures I will just go on enjoy my shooting. If he does I'll help as hard as I can to get those who want to do this to do it.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe... I send a PM to Bobby requesting the technique and the load. I have a good Swede and three or four moulds. I for one have never had the patience for puzzles and games. From the shoulder straight talk and directions is what I understand. I don't want circumlocution, indirect speech and gobbledgook, just clear concise by the numbers direction. I know better than to skip a step or try and intuit the process.

I am not a hard science type and feel no need to explain the why of anything. I in interested in the how. Whether bullets bend or don't bend matters not to me. I won't speculate on what I know nothing about. I know how to fly and airplane, drive a tractor, and use a computor. I know very little about why airplanes fly, tractors function or how a computor computes. I don't really care, I an only interested in the end resuts.

I am neither a fool, nor a reckless reloader. I have been handloading for over 50 years with millions of rounds under my belt with nary a kaboom or any kind of serious problem. I will do careful research on this issue and if I think well of the idea I will try it. If not I won't. I am not going to risk my earthly body to prove you and Bobby either right or wrong.

Can somebody push a cast 6.5 mm bullet at 2.5 fps with decent accuracy? I don't think so. But just because I don't think so, doesn't mean it isn't so. I never thought Barak Obama could be elected president of this country and made several bets he could not. I did pay off.

But this load it is something I will have to know in detail before I change my mind.

Should I try it and it do what you and Bobby say, I will issue a public apology to you both.

Now that is as fair as I know how to be. If you boys keep playing hide the ball then expect nothing good from me.

[StarMetal]

Joe... I send a PM to Bobby requesting the technique and the load. I have a good Swede and three or four moulds. I for one have never had the patience for puzzles and games. From the shoulder straight talk and directions is what I understand. I don't want circumlocution, indirect speech and gobbledgook, just clear concise by the numbers direction. I know better than to skip a step or try and intuit the process.

I am neither a fool, nor a reckless reloader. I have been handloading for over 50 years with millions of rounds under my belt with nary a kaboom or any kind of serious problem. I will do careful research on this issue and if I think well of the idea I will try it. If not I won't. I am not going to risk my earthly body to prove you and Bobby either right or wrong.

Can somebody push a cast 6.5 mm bullet at 2.5 fps with decent accuracy? I don't think so. But just because I don't think so, doesn't mean it isn't so. I never thought Barak Obama could be elected president of this country and made several bets he could not. I did pay off.

But this load it is something I will have to know in detail before I change my mind.

Should I try it and it do what you and Bobby say, I will issue a public apology to you both.

Now that is as fair as I know how to be. If you boys keep playing hide the ball then expect nothing good from me.


Charger,

If Bob gives you the info, feel free to pm me for any way I can assist you.

Let me say this and Bob will verify it as I told him about it. I was fooling with the Kurtz and 860 powder, may have had a booster, but I got 2452 fps out of it when I was testing. No it wasn't tiny holes. It was definitely hunting useable or coke can useable. To me that's more then just stayed on the paper.

Joe

[bearcove]

WOW :neutral:

[PAT303]

Just my 2c,my swede has had 2400 and AR2205(H4227) down the bore and it did like 2205 better,not much more but it was better.With 2400 the sweet spot was around 16grns and with 2205 it was 18. Pat

[Bret4207]

FWIW I have pretty much figured out what they're doing and there is the potential for some real troubles. I'm still not clear on the "why" of how part of it works, but it is all laid out in the archives here.

I would not have handled things as was done, but then I'm not the one that out the time into figuring things out.

[45 2.1]

FWIW I have pretty much figured out what they're doing and there is the potential for some real troubles. Without a clear understanding of how to do it safely, you would be correct. I'm still not clear on the "why" of how part of it works, but it is all laid out in the archives here. And has been for quite awhile.

[Crash_Corrigan]

OK my eyes are tearing and my brain is numb. I have a lovely rifle of the aforemetioned caliber 6.5 x 55 which for which I just got a 170 gr cruise missle mold for.

It is a Czech 98/22 large ring Mauser action {1924} with a Match Douglas Barrel, Timmney Trigger, Buehler Safety, Glass Bedded on a laminated stock with a Simmons Whitetail Classic 6x20 40MM AO scope.

I have just cast 237 of those lovely things and they are running 175.5 to 177.3 grains apiece prior to lubing sizin and GC.

Would I be off the wall if I were to load up some of these babies with about 10 gr of Unique with a dacron filler.

Or maybe 27 gr of 4150 with some filler?

If I get 'er done I will post results photos and such.

[Rugg_Ed]

Just cleaned the grease an gooo out of, and from my 6.5 X 55 Swede. Loaded up some 140 cast cruise's as you call them with H4198. First batch out of the barrel I got a 20 rnd group with 3 inch center to center at 100 yrds. Was hoping to find some more interesting data in the thread. Think I will stick on my normal path with various powders, couple different CB's, seating depths and if I get a 10 rnd group under 1 inch I will share the results. Do have one question how do you read the metal disk in the stock ??

[swheeler]

Just cleaned the grease an gooo out of, and from my 6.5 X 55 Swede. Loaded up some 140 cast cruise's as you call them with H4198. First batch out of the barrel I got a 20 rnd group with 3 inch center to center at 100 yrds. Was hoping to find some more interesting data in the thread. Think I will stick on my normal path with various powders, couple different CB's, seating depths and if I get a 10 rnd group under 1 inch I will share the results. Do have one question how do you read the metal disk in the stock ??

Try this;http://www.surplusrifle.com/mauserswedish/index.asp

[StarMetal]

Just cleaned the grease an gooo out of, and from my 6.5 X 55 Swede. Loaded up some 140 cast cruise's as you call them with H4198. First batch out of the barrel I got a 20 rnd group with 3 inch center to center at 100 yrds. Was hoping to find some more interesting data in the thread. Think I will stick on my normal path with various powders, couple different CB's, seating depths and if I get a 10 rnd group under 1 inch I will share the results. Do have one question how do you read the metal disk in the stock ??


Make sure the stock numbers match the action/barrel numbers or the disc is useless.

Someone may have put the rifle together besides the Swedes.

Joe

[Calamity Jake]

Make sure the stock numbers match the action/barrel numbers or the disc is useless.

Someone may have put the rifle together besides the Swedes.

Joe

The numbers in that disc was the barrel condition found the last time the rifle was inspected at the Swede arsonal.
The history of that rifle after that last inspection is nonexsitant and you don't know how the gun was treated before you aquired so the barrell condition in unkown.

[Calamity Jake]

Just cleaned the grease an gooo out of, and from my 6.5 X 55 Swede. Loaded up some 140 cast cruise's as you call them with H4198. First batch out of the barrel I got a 20 rnd group with 3 inch center to center at 100 yrds. Was hoping to find some more interesting data in the thread. Think I will stick on my normal path with various powders, couple different CB's, seating depths and if I get a 10 rnd group under 1 inch I will share the results. Do have one question how do you read the metal disk in the stock ??

You can look here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forum/view/id/82
on how to read that disc.

[Rugg_Ed]

Thanks folks
The numbers all matched I noticed when I was cleaning it and the bore looked good. Seen way worse from neglect. Disc info # 1 means the bore is only slightly worn (this rifle); had to replace and fit a new firing pin and spring all else is good to go.
Now just find what it likes, seating depth is is a little longer than published specs but not unreasonable. Make a good winter project working up a load.