question for the black guys

[shotman]

I have a few questions One which black powder is the best ? graf swiss or goex Two you say lube the boolit -old BP shells didnt have a soft lube. have some old 44-40 and they still go bang [not all the time] but lube is black and hard. Three you say load and use. The old ones have been around for years . Wads? the old shells didnt use them. I am confused:veryconfu

[malpaismike]

Hello the camp! while I'm the first to say I'm not the pro from Dover, I've shot frontier cartridge--bp pistol & rifle cartridge, bp shotshell--in cas for 10 yr and added frontiersman--c&b pistol + rifle & sg--for 5 yr. To address my take on your issues:
--powder depends on your objective: Swiss is star for power, accuracy and consistency--say sillouette or long-range; GOEX is great all-around--I used it in FFG for cartridge, sg & c&b; when I retired, Istarted buying the cheap stuff--several kinds, usually 3-5 bucks less than GOEX--for sg; I have used GOEX, Swiss, Elephant, KIK, Scheutzen and stuff with no name; it all worked, some cleaned easier than others but none difficult
--lube is the key to easy cleaning; I won't contend hot water and dish soap is not fine for bp cleanup, it is; I clean on a tailgate or table by my camper, where Windex with vinegar--or these days Glass Plus--rules the roost; my lube is beeswax and Crisco, with olive oil to soften it a tad; can't address your hard lube old loads--what I know of balloon cases is book only, and these were externally lubed with heeled bullets, like .22s, I thought
--this is individual taste, I think; because I don't use a progressive--I know it's done, I just get it done my way and feel safer--it's easy to load 200 rd in an hr for a match, assuring fresh loads; I know pals who bulk load as opportunities present, AND use the bp measures on Dillons and MECs; more power to them--I'm retired, not in a hurry and feel safer--that's enuf for me; I get 200/hr by doing size and bell opns in bulk, then dipping and bullet seating as reqd; shotshell are ~100/hr
--this is my favorite bp story; I started with .45s; a full 2.6cc load of bp is fun, but it hurts after a bit--I worked at the time and had incipient carpal tunnel, so I cut to 1.9bp and .7 grits; due to blowback /w 45s, had to detail-strip after 2-3matches--this got old, so I went to .44-40--------EUREKA! With .45s, it was load mentioned with filler, 2 beeswax wads and Bear Creek moly bullet; for whatever reason, with .44-40 (remember, there's supposedly 40 gr in both .44-40 and .45) I used the 1.9 bp, 2 wads and bcmb, no filler; worked great and fairly easy to clean; I now roll my own .427 big lube boolits and cleaning is a snap--did 2 c&b, rifle and sg in 40 min Fri am; so wads? I don't use'em except in .45-70 long-range or Plainsman loads--and that's only cuz that's what I was taught; if I run out of wads (1000 is a GROUP of catridges) I may rethink; while I meandered a bit here, my point was I considered the grits to be 'wads'; the beeswax was lube; it all fit; my .44s work just fine
I hope this addressed your issues; good luck and keep the smoke a'comin' mm

[NickSS]

Any black powder can be made to shoot accurately in a BPCR. However, when you are shooting in competition and doing a lot of it you want consistency in your powder lot to lot. Swiss has the best consistency I have tried and that is why a lot of shooters are using it in competition. I use a lot of Goex as I have found that if you buy like 25 pounds of one lot and work up loads I can shoot all year before I get to buy another case of powder. Being cheap I find this works for me. As for cleanup I find that I have good success with a 50-50 mixture of ballistol and water. Usually two wet patches and one dry one does it no mater what BP I use and I have used some really cheap stuff but for competion I stick to GOEX. I will point out that I am not a top competitor and probably never will be as I do not practice enough.

[August]

If you want to shoot one time, then lube is not important.

If you want your gun to keep working for a while, then lube is the key factor.

Black powder fouling will make accuracy go to heck in a hurry unless a good lube is employed.

I suspect the ingredients in the old cartridges you speak of have dried over the years, leaving the result you describe.

There has been a lot of talk recently about the necessity of using wads in BP loads -- pro and con. I find it a convenient way to mark cases that are charged and a good adjunct to the compression operation in loading. I'm gonna keep using 'em. I do, however, use a waxed paper wad between the fiber wad and bullet to insure the fiber wad does not adhere to the bullet during flight.

I'm also one of the people who will testify that over-primer wads of newsprint or tracing paper make a big difference in shot to shot variation. I use over primer wads in conjunction with pistol primers and am convinced the gentler ignition of this combination lowers variation in performance (i.e. single digit S to S differences).

I shot a side match last week and went 10 for 10 without blowing or wiping. I am an absolute believer that quality lubrication (in sufficient amounts) is important with BP. I also use Big Lube boolits in my cowboy gunz and they run the whole match without attention. They will not do that with traditional bullet designs. So, again, lube is king!

[cajun shooter]

Shotman, your question is in general so my answer will have to be. If you want to try BP and see what it is about then use any BP that you have access to. For shooting on the river bank no wads, filler, lube cookies. The only thing needed is a lead bullet that is lubed with a good BP lube. You stated that you had some very old 44-40 with hard lube. I'll bet you that lube was soft when loaded and has hardened over time. When you read about wads and other things those loads that are being discussed are meant for long range target shooting. As far as Swiss being the best powder it is also the most expensive and not needed for any shots under 800 yds. A lot of shooters make the mistake of taking standard Goex and comparing it to Swiss. Thats not fair and Goex also makes a Cartridge Grade which I find to be very good and the top of the line Express which is on the same level with Swiss. A simple load for the 44-40 is to lay your bullet on the table and take a dowel and mark from the bottom of the bullet to the crimp groove. Put enough BP in the case to where this mark is visable" above" the edge of the case. Seat the bullet and crimp and then shoot. The clean up can be with just soapy water or one of the many methods.

[Don McDowell]

I have a few questions One which black powder is the best ? graf swiss or goex Two you say lube the boolit -old BP shells didnt have a soft lube. have some old 44-40 and they still go bang [not all the time] but lube is black and hard. Three you say load and use. The old ones have been around for years . Wads? the old shells didnt use them. I am confused:veryconfu

Which powder is best? that depends on the meaning of best. I find the fouling left behind by Swiss to be unacceptable. Also the European powders will be a bit finer kernels as compared to Goex so theres where some of the "faster" stuff comes from. I also like Shuetzen in some applications. So basically I'll say that in some loads Goex is best, and others Schuetzen.KIK has also found favor with some folks. When you get a good bp load going oft times the deviation will be 5fps or less. Swiss is to overpriced for what it is.IMHO
Old bullet lube often used bayberry wax as the base. (your significant other probably has some bayberry candles you can try as a base for lube)
You're fortunate? those old cartridges still went off. The corrosive priming compound isn't real good for shelf life. Sure hope you didn't get to much pitting in your bores.
Wads? Well sometime's they don't help. Most of the time they do. It takes shooting to figure that out.
Alot will depend on what you want out of your guns. If you're just shooting CAS where the targets are the size of a pickup door and the range is measured in feet, accuraracy don't mean much,then most anything that'll make noise and hurl lead down range will work. If you're shooting any of the bpcr games where 2 moa or less is what'll keep you close to the top, then you need to set down with your guns and components and test, test test and test some more.

[Lead Fred]

Ive been using Goex for 30 years, Ive never seen any reason to try anything else.

A friend is going to give me a pound of Pyrodex to try in my 45-70, when I have, Ill go right back to the Goex.

[montana_charlie]

I have a few questions One which black powder is the best ? graf swiss or goex
Buy what you like, or what you can afford, and learn to use it.

Two you say lube the boolit -old BP shells didnt have a soft lube.
Your old stuff may be hard, but I bet it was made with natural (not petroleum-based) materials.

Three you say load and use. The old ones have been around for years .
You may wait as long as you wish. But bullets change hardness over time, and lube can deteriorate. Best performance can be expected when the ammunition is relatively 'fresh'.

Wads? the old shells didnt use them.
Some did, some didn't. 44-40's probably never did.

I am confused
Your questions are 'about' the things you have read that relate to BPCR ('R' stands for 'rifle'), but you question their validity based on your experience with old pistol ammunition.
It's understandable that you are confused.

As a rifle shooter I can't clear up that confusion for you, but perhaps I have helped you identify the reason for it.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Your questions are 'about' the things you have read that relate to BPCR ('R' stands for 'rifle'), but you question their validity based on your experience with old pistol ammunition.
It's understandable that you are confused.



CM

Actually the 44wcf (44-40 to the unwashed) was introduced as a rifle round and remained so for quite some time even after Colt chambered it in the model P.[smilie=s::bigsmyl2:

[RMulhern]

Most times....I leave this forum just shaking my head....and with a grin on my face!!

Some of the questions asked.....are akin to an alien moving in from Pluto!!

[shotman]

Thanks for replies guys.
I know the lube makes a big difference in the ML s I have shot them for some time
There are many "new powders" and I feel that most of that is marketing.
Black is black you cant do a lot with it. size yes
The 44-40 I mentioned is a win 92. The shells were in a old wool army bag. about 20 of them. 10 fired. I did clean gun very good.
I dont plan on long range BP got a 50bmg for that
I have found that real BP is getting very hard to get in WV and near bye
Shipping is a big problem too ups and fedx wont ship it
license is more that a ffl license.

OK last question. In my BP ML I have had very good results with the things called " Bore Buttons" do any of you guys use them in shells?
FPM thats why it took 3 named the same
rick

[cajun shooter]

Don, I had to laugh when you described cowboy shooting. The targets are not the size of pickup doors; maybe mini cooper and we shoot out to 50 yds under speed which makes for misses. It's a on the clock game with accuracy a second thought. It's a game of shooting and having fun not as serious as some. If you try to go faster than you are able each miss scores a five second penalty. If you forget(This Is Hard For Us Seniors) the exact shooting sequence,such as 1-5-2-4-3 then that draws a penalty also.

[Don McDowell]

I have found that real BP is getting very hard to get in WV and near bye
Shipping is a big problem too ups and fedx wont ship it
license is more that a ffl license.



I don't know the exact ins and outs of bp dealers in WV.
I do however know that statement about ups and fedex won't ship it, is just pure uniformed bullspit. I and many others get powder from Grafs and Powder Inc.
Grafs will ship you one can if you want to stand the hazmat fee for it, and Powder Inc ships in 5lb lots.


David, I may have exaggerated just a tad......:smile::kidding:

[59sharps]

I don't know the exact ins and outs of bp dealers in WV.
I do however know that statement about ups and fedex won't ship it, is just pure uniformed bullspit. I and many others get powder from Grafs and Powder Inc.
Grafs will ship you one can if you want to stand the hazmat fee for it, and Powder Inc ships in 5lb lots.


David, I may have exaggerated just a tad......:smile::kidding:

Back Creek Gun Shop winchester VA. and John will ship. Don't know how far that is for you.
they have a web site

[BruceB]

If blackpowder is hard for you to find, place an order at www.mainepowderhouse.com

This outfit specializes in blackpowder (all makes) and delivers to your door for very reasonable rates. They're highly recommended by a lot of BP shooters.

[Don McDowell]

I've heard of another place in Indiana. Deer Creek or some such, but I have no direct experience with it, so can't comment.
Grafs has sent me a goodly amount of BLACK powder, mostly on FEDEX.

[malpaismike]

Hello the camp! PowderInc just shipped me 25#, mixed GOEX and KIK, and I got it in less than a week. Last year it took about 3 wks, due to shortages, moon shadow or somesuch.
I did a google for bp; found a place in MA real cheap GOEX, but they didn't ship; a few other places with GOEX under $13/lb, but same deal. I note your area is WV; check out Jack's Powder Keg. His price is close to PI, but he also travels to--and sells at--reinactments. Hereabouts, reinactments revolve around Renaissance festivals and mortgage foreclosures, so no truck with powder merchants.
A fella comes to ronnyvoo end of Feb, but that's at Ben Avery, a fair hike from SV. I've gotten used to the FedEx dude calling me when the turns off the hwy; I walk to the gate and collect my booty.
Run a search; you may be surprised at what you find. See ya round the campfire. mm

[shotman]

dont know when you all bought the last batch. There is a class 29 license required now to shipp If some are shipping then it wont last long. The license is $100 for 3 years IF you have a current FFL. I just called on oct 6th . It is now the same a dynimite. If you can get it do it now caus it is the thing of the past for mail order, I will try the names but bet they dont ship for long. rick

[Don McDowell]

Don't bet much , you'll loose.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Winchester supplied a wad cutter with thier loading tools... at least that is what the "Winny Book" says ( The BIG THICK Brown Book ). I am a bit late to get a new mold set from the Winny factory.

[The Double D]

Thanks for replies guys.
I have found that real BP is getting very hard to get in WV and near bye
Shipping is a big problem too ups and fedx wont ship it
license is more that a ffl license.

OK last question. In my BP ML I have had very good results with the things called " Bore Buttons" do any of you guys use them in shells?
FPM thats why it took 3 named the same
rick

How far are you from Winchester VA? Or Rio Grande, OH? Both have GOEX distributors. Winchester is about 350 miles from Charleston, but Rio Grande is only 70 miles. I have to drive that far to go to Wal-Mart. would it be worth a Road trip?

Many of the Powder Distributors wil ship you 5 lbs of powder. Sites like Powder Inc include shipping and HAZ-MAT fee in their price. http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm. For example if you buy 5 pounds of GOEX from Powder INC, the cost is $20.35 a pound, buy 10 lbs and it is $16.25 a pound. That price includes shipping and haz-mat.

Just like in smokeless powder one size does not fit all. There is not just one smokeless powder to use for all smokeless cartridge loading. No different in blackpowders, different grades burn differently, different brands burn differently. Just like with smokeless powder, you need to experiment and find the right powder.

That's where the people like Powder Inc. come in, they will mix an match. So you could order several different brands and several different grades in one lot.


I mention Powder INC, because I am familiar with their process. But go to this website and locate distributor near you. Contact them and ask what they will do for you. http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html

[Bullshop]

But not to Alaska
BIC/BS

[shotman]

well I guess I have to buy it as a individual. I cant buy as a dealer unless I have the license. The local UPS manager told me that they were going to stop the powder primers and ammo around the first of the year. He said I thought that guns would be involved in that too.
I will try some of the names and see if I can get it thanks rick

[Boz330]

I've heard of another place in Indiana. Deer Creek or some such, but I have no direct experience with it, so can't comment.
Grafs has sent me a goodly amount of BLACK powder, mostly on FEDEX.

Deer Creek is correct, he used to have the best prices around. I stocked up last year before the price increase, so not sure now. Unfortunately he doesn't have a website, just kind of works from word of mouth, probably why he is so cheap. I would guess that he would ship since he retails all sorts of ML stuff. He is close enough to me that I just drive up there.
When I say the best prices, that is by the case, but you can mix and match. The last Goex I got was $8 a lb and Swiss was $16. At Friendship last month I think Goex was $12 or $13 and Swiss was $22 and Express about the same. It used to be pretty good prices at the NMLRA powder magazine but it seems high to me now. Deer Creek was always a couple bucks better than what NMLRA charged but it was still a good price.

Bob

[shotman]

Up date. Yes I can get it but not as a dealer unless I want to pay the $100 . I will do some checking and see if it worth the touble to invest a couple of grand in a supply to sell.. About that Mr O will be looking for me because I got black

[Don McDowell]

You realize of course that its been a requirement for several decades now that licensing for the explosives license has included background checks, magazine inspections, and no knock searches of the licensed premises?
Then theres the local codes to stay within, the insurance etc.
Be a bunch simpler just to buy the few pounds a year you need for what you shoot......

[cajun shooter]

malpaismike, the owner of Jack's Powder Keg is a friend of mine and he is located in Marksville, La. He does not travel with a truck of powder to sell as you posted. He is the City Judge and an attorney with a law practice. He is involved with Civil War reenactment and owns two cannons which take 3 lbs for each firing. He does go to local areas and State Parks. He is not a powder merchant with a truck load of powder. Shotman, you have been very misinformed on the sale and shipping of BP. Your statement that black is black is also very false and you would lose a lot of money if you laid down a bet on this theory.

[shooter575]

Originally Posted by shotman View Post
I have found that real BP is getting very hard to get in WV and near bye
Shipping is a big problem too ups and fedx wont ship it
license is more that a ffl license.

+1 for Back Creek gun shop in Winchester Va. Been buying from him for 25 years. Goex was 260.00 for 25 lb box/keg as of month ago He is right next to the N-SSA home range.During the May and Oct nationals 3500 shooters all buy from him.
web site is www.blackpowderva.com