Where do I go from here?

[geargnasher]

Need a little help from the Revolver Forensicists.

I have a brand-new Ruger New Vaquero SS 7-1/2" .45 Colt that is skidding boolits and I'm trying to figure out what to do next.

First off, this gun actually has ok cylinder throats, but had a terrible forcing cone restriction and after the first 12 shots left the grooves filled flush with the lands I gave up and went at it with Clover compound and a slug, pound into the cone an inch and back out 3-400 times until no more restriction. Leading totally eliminated. Accuracy, however is still not-so-hot 2" at 15 yards off bags. Went to a harder boolit and lighter powder charge that works perfectly in my Uberti Bisley,(5.4 grains Titegroup with 452190) then tried working up from scratch with HS6, still no leading at all but accuracy was an average of 1-7/8" at 15 yards and 2" at 25.

I managed to recover a few boolits from my sand-filled target boxes and they all show skidding. According to load data 10.0 grains of HS6 with this boolit should be around 900 fps or less. That was the load that shot best and I recovered those boolits, but they looked like the others with more and less HS6 and 5.4 of Titegroup.

The last batch of boolits test a solid 15.8 bhn, which should be plenty hard to take the rifling without skidding, but the evidence shows otherwise. I routinely and accurately shoot .357 Magnum to 1350 fps (chrono'd on a friend's machine) with 12 bhn boolits and shoot (est) 13-1400 fps with .44 Magnum with 11 bhn 16:1 and 10 bhn 20:1 hollow points and no leading or skidding in either one.

What gives? I haven't mangled the leade or anyting in the Ruger, the lands are still sharp in the cone, and it doesn't lead AT ALL.

What would you try next to get better accuracy? Harder alloy or slower powder? Maybe a heavier boolit?

Thanks in advance,

Gear

The boolit on the left is an as-cast 452664 used for slugging the bore from the muzzle, the one on the right is a recovered 454190 (sized .452") showing the skidding of the rifling.

[felix]

Gear, this looks like a problem for the 44man. All of my revolters fit into this category when the truth be known for the same of different reasons, except for three of them: a ruger, a smith, and a colt. Just to let you know, it ain't brand dependent, either, for either accuracy or inaccuracy. If I lived next door to that man, he will either fix them or trash them. ... felix

[HWooldridge]

Try a slower powder first - that's an easy check and you don't have to cast new pills. It seems Blue Dot has a bad rep for some applications but I find it often saves the day for me in .44 and .45 problem solving.

[geargnasher]

Felix, I was hoping 44man would see this and give his advice before the thread fades away, I was going to pm him but I figure I'd see what other folks say too, I'm not a revolver expert and don't really know what "normal" is. Just comparing to my other guns which all shoot much better and have better looking boolits after the usual experimenting. Btw, I think it's the FWFL that's keeping the leading away even with .010" air leaks at the base and clear gas cutting grooves in the base and second driving band land engraves. Good stuff, your formula is, thanks again for sharing.

I've seen virtually perfect boolits with no skidding and no gas-cuttingcome out of some guns and lead the bores like crazy, I don't get it about leading. I know all the theories, but no firm rules I haven't seen exception to with regard to leaded barrels.

I think it's all black voodoo magic in the end and I didn't marry a witch!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Among my slow pistol powders I've got some Longshot, Hercules 2400 Filthybore Special, Hercules Herco, some ancient 296 and if I'm lucky my local reloading store still has some Blue Dot left (I heard someone else is making the Dots and such now, was it Alliant?) :kidding: Did I mention I collect antique gunpowder?

I'd rather use the Longshot because it's fresh or Blue dot if I can get it, problem is finding loading data for the Longshot with ~250-grain boolits. Any suggestions?

Gear

[Bullshop]

Hay Gearguy I got a can you might want. Its a 5lb Red steel can of Hercules 2400 un opened. Its just bugging me. Not that I dont use 2400 I do but when all others are gone I will open it and shoot it up. That just done seem right somehow.
I could trade ya for sumthin but you will have to pick it up here, cant ship it.
Maybe if I just use it in my 22 ccm it will last a long time.
BTW what ya mean skidding? Ya mean cuz the land cuts are wider at the leading edg of the bearing surface? That seems perty normal to me. Same on every boolit I ever seen fired in a revolver.
BIC/BS

[geargnasher]

yep, the engraving is exactly parallel to the boolit's axis on the left side and angled about 1-in-12 on the right side from base to nose leaving a considerable triangle of an engraving mark complete with gas-cutting of the first 2 bands and not the greatest accuracy. I know accuracy issues could be a zillion other things in a wheelgun but I thought I'd fix the obvious first. My other revolvers don't do this to boolits, or if they do I'd have to make a much better boolit trap to notice it.

Steel red can? Unopened? My gosh, you could get 200 bucks for that on StupidBay! Way out of my League. I'll stop by and admire it next time I'm in your neighborhood :mrgreen:

Thanks for the tip,

Gear

[Bret4207]

Felix, I was hoping 44man would see this and give his advice before the thread fades away, I was going to pm him but I figure I'd see what other folks say too, I'm not a revolver expert and don't really know what "normal" is. Just comparing to my other guns which all shoot much better and have better looking boolits after the usual experimenting. Btw, I think it's the FWFL that's keeping the leading away even with .010" air leaks at the base and clear gas cutting grooves in the base and second driving band land engraves. Good stuff, your formula is, thanks again for sharing.

I've seen virtually perfect boolits with no skidding and no gas-cuttingcome out of some guns and lead the bores like crazy, I don't get it about leading. I know all the theories, but no firm rules I haven't seen exception to with regard to leaded barrels.

I think it's all black voodoo magic in the end and I didn't marry a witch!

Gear


Fit, fit, fit. You just identified your problem. You have a fit problem, not an alloy problem or powder problem. What size are your throats and barrel? What are you sizing to? You're gone past the basics that need addressing.

[44man]

Fit is important of course but I have no problems as long as the boolit is at least bore size and a little larger is always better. I make mine .452" for my Vaquero.
Skidding is caused by too fast a powder with a soft boolit or even too soft with slow powders. I get a lot of skidding with my .475 because of the weight of the boolit and heavy charge for hunting but the skid does not reach the base of the boolit. Marks at the base MUST be only bore size. If the marks at the base are over bore size, the lead must be made harder.
I use nothing less then 20 BHN and go to 25 to 30 for heavy boolits and for light loads of fast powder. Yes, the faster the powder, the harder the boolit needs to be. Recent tests I have done has shown a drastic reduction in groups at 50 yards with harder boolits and charges of 231 and Unique.
Even in the .44 water dropped WW's are not as accurate as a harder water dropped alloy.
Now comes the problem with guns with a high velocity like my 45-70 BFR. It is deadly with hard boolits but it does not kill deer good so they need softened. Going to 50-50 WW's and pure and water dropping or oven hardening gives me good hunting accuracy but I get some fliers. As the boolit gets heavier, fliers get more common and a gas check MUST be used with this alloy. They harden to 18 to 20 BHN but that still is not hard enough for the thin skin that takes the rifling. It softens too fast as the rifling is engaged.
Everyone knows a water dropped boolit needs to be sized soon after casting so it hardens with aging. Then everyone says to make the boolit larger then the throats and much larger then the bore. But there is a limit because you are sizing and softening the boolit when you shoot it. I would say .002" over bore size is max even if the boolit is smaller then the throats. As the alloy gets harder, it can resist this sizing and softening.
Too much is placed on making a boolit expand so it can obturate, well it just does not make accurate loads. As boolits get softer you need to make the start more gentle. Slamming into the forcing cone is the worst problem when you get a boolit going too fast before it hits the cone.
Remember that hollow bases and soft lead was used with the more gentle BP and as smokeless came into use, a gas check was designed so the softer lead could be used.
Everyone knows a jacketed bullet is accurate yet they keep suggesting going softer for cast. I oppose that 100%, you need to make the cast take the rifling like a jacketed bullet does.
Now if I can find a way to cast a boolit with a 40 BHN skin and a 10 bhn interior I would have it all-----I could just buy jacketed, couldn't I?
Anyway, this is what happens as lead gets softer. 50-50 mix, oven hardened in the 45-70 at 50 yards. The boolit is 350 gr and as I go heavier, fliers get worse.

[38-55]

Geargnasher, ( cool handle btw )
I have two blackhawks in 45 lc.. kinda had the same problem you have.. First off size your bullet to the cylinder mouth.. mine run between .452 and .456 so I split the difference and went with .454.. Throats ( where barrel screws into frame) are .450 and barrels ( both of em' believe it or not ) are .451.. They now shoot well but I had a bit of a time figuring things out as I, like you, started by matching the barrel dimensions plus .001 ( .452 ) For the record they now shoot well with any alloy I stuff in em' so I just stick with wheel weights and such..
As fur powders... I use black powder, unique, 2400 and trial boss.. With trail boss ( 5.5 gns 250-265 bullet ) being my favorite 'light' load and I use 8.5 of unique for the longer range stuff (200 meters +). I won't post the 2400 loads as case life is none to long but suffice it to say they are stout....
Hope this helps
Stay safe
Calvin

[geargnasher]

Guess I should have mentioned that I've covered all the basics I know of, just my op was long-winded enough!

Bret, I think the fit is ok, take a gander:

Cylinder throats mic .4528-.4531 with quality hole gauges.

The bore is .4510 exactly, but the forcing cone, as I mentioned, had a terrible restriction (.0015" is terrible in my book and caused mucho leading). I already fixed that.

I size to .453" (carefully honed .452" H&I die) for this gun and I feel that outside of a few egg-shaped cylinder throats and a very roughly machined forcing cone the gun is dimensionally decent and should shoot better than I've been able to make it so far. I'm comparing this to the performance of my other revolvers and knowledge of my own ability (or lack thereof!) to
shoot them.

44man, I knew you were going to say that! I'm a little out of my league on hard alloys, I've never needed anything over 18 bhn before, and it's a little spooky to me especially with warmer loads, but after reading a lot of your posts I figured I'll have to try that next to get the results I'm looking for. I'm trying to see if I can make this gun into a short-range whitetail pistol, but it has to shoot a bit straighter and carry a bit bigger boolit (300-325 grains) with a large meplat and BE ACCURATE before I'll attempt that. Right now I'm just trying to get it to shoot straight and comfortably for target work.

Just didn't know if some tidbit escaped me like the forcing cone angle needs to be recut to help skidding or maybe a different boolit nose, etc. I can try all of these but I'm trying to cut to the chase a bit, I'm down to my last thousand LR primers and I don't want to use magnum primers as it may compound the problem of starting the boolit too fast.

Thanks for the replies,

Gear

Thanks, 38-55, Geargnasher is a moniker a friend of mine at work gave me some years ago due to my obsessive mechanical nature.

[44man]

Guess I should have mentioned that I've covered all the basics I know of, just my op was long-winded enough!

Bret, I think the fit is ok, take a gander:

Cylinder throats mic .4528-.4531 with quality hole gauges.

The bore is .4510 exactly, but the forcing cone, as I mentioned, had a terrible restriction (.0015" is terrible in my book and caused mucho leading). I already fixed that.

I size to .453" (carefully honed .452" H&I die) for this gun and I feel that outside of a few egg-shaped cylinder throats and a very roughly machined forcing cone the gun is dimensionally decent and should shoot better than I've been able to make it so far. I'm comparing this to the performance of my other revolvers and knowledge of my own ability (or lack thereof!) to
shoot them.

44man, I knew you were going to say that! I'm a little out of my league on hard alloys, I've never needed anything over 18 bhn before, and it's a little spooky to me especially with warmer loads, but after reading a lot of your posts I figured I'll have to try that next to get the results I'm looking for. I'm trying to see if I can make this gun into a short-range whitetail pistol, but it has to shoot a bit straighter and carry a bit bigger boolit (300-325 grains) with a large meplat and BE ACCURATE before I'll attempt that. Right now I'm just trying to get it to shoot straight and comfortably for target work.

Just didn't know if some tidbit escaped me like the forcing cone angle needs to be recut to help skidding or maybe a different boolit nose, etc. I can try all of these but I'm trying to cut to the chase a bit, I'm down to my last thousand LR primers and I don't want to use magnum primers as it may compound the problem of starting the boolit too fast.

Thanks for the replies,

Gear

Thanks, 38-55, Geargnasher is a moniker a friend of mine at work gave me some years ago due to my obsessive mechanical nature.
Boolit and forcing cone is fine. I have to ask what the recovered boolit was shot into because the nose looks sharper.
You can make the boolits very hard without worrying about pressure and the boolit has a large enough meplat to work.
I think you need to load them faster after making them harder. I would go to 296 and work loads for accuracy.
The new Vaquero won't take the heavy loads I use but I think you will see an improvement with more velocity then 900 fps.
I don't know if I would use a heavier boolit in the smaller gun.
Don't try to gain velocity with the faster powders. The new Vaquero is stronger then a Colt but use care anyway. Safety first!

[leftiye]

You got any rifling left in that area that you lapped? Worn rifling would maybe cause boolits to skid?

Try some Blue Dot, my .45 colts love it, and it is really reliable at the lower pressures. Some folks don't like it, but I was getting 1250 fps twenty five years ago with 250 grainers when "it couldn't be done." As I said - LP standard primers, and less powder (than my 16.0 grains) and it will be a slower powder for low velocity, with consistent burning, low pressures, and a soft ignition curve.

[Bret4207]

Guess I should have mentioned that I've covered all the basics I know of, just my op was long-winded enough!

Bret, I think the fit is ok, take a gander:

Cylinder throats mic .4528-.4531 with quality hole gauges.

The bore is .4510 exactly, but the forcing cone, as I mentioned, had a terrible restriction (.0015" is terrible in my book and caused mucho leading). I already fixed that.

I size to .453" (carefully honed .452" H&I die) for this gun and I feel that outside of a few egg-shaped cylinder throats and a very roughly machined forcing cone the gun is dimensionally decent and should shoot better than I've been able to make it so far. I'm comparing this to the performance of my other revolvers and knowledge of my own ability (or lack thereof!) to
shoot them.



I'm confused. You spoke of gas cutting and .010 air gaps. That is a fit issue.

Have you considered the possibility that something else has changed from the opening you did on the restriction? Is it possible you got things off center or went too far? A forcing cone dress up might be a good idea. Is the barrel smooth when you push a slug through? Have you tried a .452 or .454 boolit?

[44man]

I'm confused. You spoke of gas cutting and .010 air gaps. That is a fit issue.

Have you considered the possibility that something else has changed from the opening you did on the restriction? Is it possible you got things off center or went too far? A forcing cone dress up might be a good idea. Is the barrel smooth when you push a slug through? Have you tried a .452 or .454 boolit?
I think he is talking about the skid marks being .010" larger then the rifling. Super nice gas channels! [smilie=l: Consider that an opening only as large as a gas molecule will leak. .010" is the whole ball of wax.
I would not mess with a forcing cone without the brass lap from Brownell's just to polish it. I would not cut the cone in a .45 because most are at the limit already and a gauge drops in too far.
I would leave well enough alone.

[geargnasher]

Bret, I was indicating that the gas cutting looks to me to have happened after the land engraving opened up wider than the lands due to skidding, like 44man said. The engraving marks have deep (twice as deep as the engraving marks) grooves on the trailing edge of the lands obviously from gas cutting. Hell, I hammered a fired boolit back into the bore while carefully aligning the engraving marks and you could practially drive a Mack truck through the gap between the edge of the land and the edge of the land engraving on the boolit. I'm still miffed as to why this isn't leading, I'm guessing the Felix lube is keeping the lead from sticking. As to part 2, I lapped the forcing cone until no increase in resistance was felt when pushing an oiled slug through from the muzzle.

44man, those pics show two different boolits!!

The one on the left is a 452664 used for slugging and the one I shot is a 454190 sized .453", it was recovered from the caliche berm behind my 2X8-thick sand filled target board (asphalt sheathing, 7/16" OSB, 7-1/2" used granite blasting sand, 7/16" OSB back) My 454190 mould makes very pointy boolits, the meplat is exactly the size of a LP primer so I don't load these for my Dad's Henry. 10-4 on sticking with the 250's in this gun for hunting, just cast 'em harder and push 'em a lot faster than I have been while using a slower-burning powder. I've got tons of meat-Bambis around the property that I can shoot easily from under 50 yards, 20-25 if I'm careful, not any fun at all with a rifle and I have always had problems pulling a legal-weight bow.

Leftiye, the forcing cone looks a heluva lot better than it did new. The restriction was a narrow ring (about .050" at the beginning of the bore-sized lands and a little of the corresponding grooves. I was very careful to lap only this area, driving a soft 340 gr slug coated with compound back and forth through the leade.

Thanks all,

Gear

[Bret4207]

Got me then. You're shooting an adequately hard boolit at not too high velocity and getting apparent skidding and lousy grouping. To me that all screams "try a fatter boolit". Just because it's not leading doesn't mean the fit is right. I would be inclined to try a boolit another thou' larger if I could and see what happens. I would also pull a couple loaded rounds and measure to make sure I wasn't reducing the diameter when seating. Your alloy should be fine for 900 fps. I don;t have any books with Titegroup in them here, but my impression is that's not a top end, high pressure load.

[geargnasher]

I know, Bret, got me a bit miffed too, one reason I'm asking you guys. I could try going to .454" but I don't see what difference it'll make in the barrel after the cylinder throats swage it to about .453" anyway.

The HS6 should be about 900 fps but I shot 4 different charges (all others lower than 10 grains) and checked a boolit from each group, all showed skidding to some degree, but groups were about the same.

The Titegroup load is a creampuff plinking load, I don't have any idea how fast it is but probably not more than 750 fps. I came up with it by running up and down the spectrum from 5.0-6.4 grains in .2gr increments and testing in two other guns, 5.4 was a magic number for accruracy, half the size of the best other groups. Worked the load again later, same results even when mixing the order of shooting. This is a "go to" load for me with any new .45 Colt.

I'm beginning to think I have a different issue than has been discussed, I rechecked the boolits from that batch and checked a known-hardness alloy again (redneck tester calibration) and still come up with the same numbers. Pulled a boolit tonight and mic'd it, it gets a couple of scratches but no reduction in size except right at the base of the crimp groove from the case mouth being roll-crimped. I had a friend make me a longer expander plug so I can use 250-grain boolits in my Lee PTE die (Lee's stock hollow plug isn't long enough for even 200 gr. boolits and I was having some problems a long time ago with tapered boolit bases and leading in another gun). This new plug is great for protecting softer boolits while seating and while firing through the crimp.

I'm going to try some Blue Dot next (just got some today at lunch) and this weekend I'll loat and shoot some of what I have. Next I'm going to heat-treat some boolits and in a couple of weeks shoot them in loads duplicating everything I've tried so far, we'll see what happens.

will keep you posted.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok, update!

I finally got some decent data for loading BD and the 255 gr 454190 and tried working up from 11.5-12.9 grains, all grouped pretty well, better than HS6, but still have BAD skidding and a bit of flame cutting of the base band engraving on the trailing edge. Engraves still about .0010-12" wider than lands at narrowest (base) point. BD shoots to almost exactly the same poi as HS6, about 4-5" low at 15 yards.

So I dropped back and punted.

Lee 340 gr lrfn sized .452", Water dropped WW+2%Sn, aged 2 1/2 weeks for 22 bhn, worked up BD by percentage to get 9.5 gr max: shoots 1" groups at 25 yards all day long, (that's about 1/3 of a front blade width!!!) and I think it is more accurate than that, but absolutely at the limit of my eyesight and the crude "sights" the New Vaquero has. The point of impact matches exactly the point of aim at 15 and 25 yards, NOW I have something to work with and will try it out at 50 and 75 when I get a chance. I didn't bother to recover any boolits to check for skidding, with performance like this with next to nil leading I could care less what the boolit looks like in flight!

Thanks for the help, I guess I was just shooting too soft a boolit like was said. Had no idea I would have to go as hard as I did just to get it to shoot straight. The extra bearing surface probably didn't hurt, either. This gun blows away what I have learned from all my other revolvers, they were MUCH more forgiving and cooperative.

Gear

[Lloyd Smale]

have you check cylinder to bore alignment. This may sound stupid but another thing to check is your bullet sizing die. I once ran into a problem where my 500 linebaugh bullets were wiping on one side. I had the gun back to John twice and both times he said he found noting wrong. Just out of curiousity i checked a bullet and it was way out of round. the die was cut that way.

[Bret4207]

Did you ever pull any boolits to see if the seater is reducing their diameter when loading?