The truth about bevel base boolits.

[No_1]

There has been discussion in the past about bevel base boolits being the cause of leading issues due to design. I find this hard to believe since the moulds are not only still manufactured but it appears they are also popular. What are your thoughts?

R.

[runfiverun]

i don't think a slightly beveled base is a problem it's the severely boat tailed revolver boolits i've had problems with.

[Rocky Raab]

BB bullets are designed to fall freely from commercial moulds - period. Overly hard bullets and lubes are made that way to survive shipment - period.

Neither has ANY positive attribute for the reloader or shooter, except that BB bullets are a whole lot easier to seat in under-expanded brass.

Those are the facts, folks.

[thx997303]

From what I know about obturation, a shallow bevel should not have any issues so long as the charge is warm enough.

Too long a bevel would appear to require quite a bit of pressure to get obturation.

Of course, this is all just conjecture. I have no experience with bevel base boolits.

Rocky Raab: IIRC boattail bullets tend to be more accurate at longer ranges. This is with FMJ though.

[GabbyM]

i don't think a slightly beveled base is a problem it's the severely boat tailed revolver boolits i've had problems with.
Is that with your own bullets cast from your alloy and using a good lube? Or just the standard off the shelf mass produced hard cast with brittle lube?

Most of us know an H&G 068 with bevel base will shoot fine in a 45 acp.

I do have loaders tell me they want a bevel base so they load easy. My standard reply is you need a Lyman M die because if you think you can flare a case with a bullet you're wrong. That goes over as well as you'd expect. So far I still have all my teeth. Have wondered if some of the problem with BB bullets is that they will go into the case regardless if said case is first properly expanded.

Although I do not think any BB bullet will be as accurate as a similar FB bullet.

[GabbyM]

BB bullets are designed to fall freely from commercial moulds - period. Overly hard bullets and lubes are made that way to survive shipment - period.

Neither has ANY positive attribute for the reloader or shooter, except that BB bullets are a whole lot easier to seat in under-expanded brass.

Those are the facts, folks.

You left out that BB bullets flow through the feed tubes of automatic sizers better.

I don't think they had BB bullets until after the bullet collators came into use did they.

[AJ Peacock]

I like BB for my cowboy action 357's because I use the brass a bunch and BB's let me not expand the necks much, which keeps the split necks to a minimum. When you're shooting 20-40,000 rounds/year, getting twice the brass life because of BB's really helps.

Also, they are easier to seat when you're flyin along with a Dillon and loading 1000/hr.

Never had a problem with leading though, even at low velocity/pressure when the alloy was soft.

AJ

[HammerMTB]

One handy thing about BB boolits is that when loading mixed cases, the casemouth flaring die will not always be correctly adjusted. So, when that case comes along that was short and didn't get a flare, the BB will seat without carving a big sliver of lead from its side to mung up the works. It may not be the "right" way, but it works.
I've loaded some mixed cases in the past, but am trying real hard not to any more. Too many variables to account for. I find it easier to just sort them.
And I removed the BB from my Lee 175 TC mold. It works fine without the BB.... :bigsmyl2:

[geargnasher]

I use both the Lyman .45 and .38 bb cowboy boolits and they work fine. Accuracy is comparable to or better than swcs in both calibers (I personally haven't had extremely good accuracy out of the Keith designs compared to rns, fn, wfns, etc.) I like them for the same reasons stated above that less bellmouthing is required and I shoot a lot of nickel brass.

Hammer, if you're shooting mixed brass with enough case length variance to create issues with your bellmouths, invest in a Lee case trimmer cutter+lockstud with gauge+shellholder in you caliber. $8 for both from any reloading supplier. Imagine how uneven your crimps are, even if taper crimping.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

People make BB molds not because they are good, but because other people will buy them. Commercial caster use them because they fall from their automated casting machines easy and speed up production.

They sell them to reloader by telling them, they seat easier in cases, which they do. But the problems with these BB pistol bullets far outweights what little benefit they offer. Properly preped cases handle plain based bullets just fine.

I am way past a million, maybe two or three million handgun rounds loaded with cast bullet over the past 50 years and I have never seen a BB cast bullet that will do as good as well cast PB bullet of proper temper with proper lubricant. Of course there are lots of different PB bullets and some do better than others. These BB bullets may be "OK" for some people and some uses but they are far from being OK with me.

I agree with Rocky, those rock hard, bevel base commercial bullets with usless hard wax lubricant are very, very poor performers, but folks keep on buying them.

Caveat Emptor --- Let he buyer beware!

[runfiverun]

gabby it's been both alloys/lubes seeing as how i was a commercial caster for quite some time.
i made the generic magma boolits as well as the popular rcbs/lyman ones.
i still have about 30 or so magma molds,just because that is the easiest method for the kids to use when they need some boolits.
i have some very rebated base boolits that i bought from a competitor a while [ long while] back to do some testing with. i won't even let the kids shoot them as they deserve better.
i know the alloy of them and i just remelt them when i want some rifle boolits.
the softer alloyed stuff has long been remelted and shot.
the h&g 68 with the small bevel is one that is not a problem. [in fact i still have most of a 5 gallon bucket of them that i like to shoot] a few of them were sent to lee for the group buy done a while ago. along with some h&g original mold boolits.
it is the boat tail ones that are my problem.

[GabbyM]

Thanks runfiverun
eyeballing some bullets over I see the 68 is a slight bevel as are my 9mm bullets. Then my Magma 44-240-SWC_BB does have a big bevel. Haven't tried any of them in my own revolver since I've bullets I like much better. Got it for the fellows that just have to have it. They think my truncated cone Saeco bullet looks funny. How can you argue with that?

[KYCaster]

You guys are painting with an awfully broad brush.

To lump all bevel base bullets and commercial cast bullets and "hard" lubes together and call them all inferior is just going a bit too far.

Many of you guys have much more experience than I do and many of you can shoot WAY better than I can, but I've done a lot of work with a lot of different handguns and I can pretty much hold my own against the "average" competitive shooter.

I've done extensive comparisons with different bullet styles, different lubes and different alloys and continue to test new-to-me products to see if I can improve my results. I have two sets of Magma molds that started out as identical H&G 68 clones (45-200-SWC-BB), eight two cavity molds to a set, and had one set altered by milling the height of the molds to remove the BB resulting in a 180 gr. PB boolit. After firing hundreds of groups in many different guns I can find no statistical difference in the two boolits. I also compared boolits from individual cavities from the two sets of molds and found no statistical difference in group sizes.

I've compared the Magma 45-230-RN-BB to the Lyman 452374 and the Lee 230-RN and have found no statistical difference in group size.

I have used a wide variety of .38 and .45 boolits in both USPSA and Bullseye competition and have not been able to see any difference in scores between BB and PB boolits.

Many years ago I settled on Thompson's Blue Angel lube as the best of the available lubes. I've compared it with Bullshop Speed Green and Lar's Carnauba Red and in handgun loads I can't find any difference in performance. The vast majority of boolits I shoot are lubed with Blue Angel and leading is NEVER an issue in anything from .32 S&W Long mouse loads to 2200 fps 308 Win. The only issue I've found is in hi-vel rifle and cold weather, so I use Speed Green for my hunting loads...for every thing else I consider the three lubes interchangeable for my own use, but everything I sell gets Blue Angel. I've shipped it to South Florida in the summer and to Minnesota in the dead of winter and haven't had any complaints due to lube.

I've recently been working with a 44 Mag SRH. I have Magma 44-240-SWC-BB, Lyman 429421 4 cav, Ideal 429421 1 cav, JDJ 310-TC and five different 6 cav Lee GB molds. I've tried a dozen different powders in every thing from 650 fps in 44 Spl cases to full house loads with W296, H110, 2400 and Lil Gun...and the most consistant performer......the Magma 44-240-SWC. It's not often the best with any combination, but it's never the worst and very often right up there close to the top.

I used to work gun shows. I found that lots of buyers would base their purchase decisions on such things as which vender was closest to the door so they wouldn't have to carry those heavy boolits so far...or which one would cut their prices the most just before closing time. They'll spend thirty dollars in gas, parking and entry fees to get in the show, but got a great deal when they saved three bucks on 1000 bullets.

Now most of my customers are IPSC, USPSA, IDPA shooters. Some of them buy 50K rounds per year. The ones who have been around a while know what works. They may spend three grand on their race gun and keep last years gun for a back up. They may shoot a thousand rounds or more a week in practice and competition and if they think something is costing them points and place in a match they'll drop it like a hot potato. Those are my repeat customers...if it didn't work they wouldn't use it.

Can you make a better boolit than you can buy???? Sure you can...well, maybe...depends on what you want. But to say that all commercial boolits, or all BB boolits or all "crayon" lubes are garbage is going just a little too far.

Sorry if this turned into a rant, but you guys just struck a nerve.

Have a day...[smilie=s:
Jerry

[Leftoverdj]

You left out that BB bullets flow through the feed tubes of automatic sizers better.

I don't think they had BB bullets until after the bullet collators came into use did they.

They had bevel base bullets at least as early as the 1960s. When did the collators come out.

[runfiverun]

jerry you are actually agreeing with what was said.
the slight b/b is not an issue like on the 200 swc but there are designs that go too far.
look at the magma 158 swc bb it is a boat tailed target boolit for a handgun.
i have and still do use hard lubes doubt i'll ever use another soft lube again,unless i go to black powder.
but that type boolit is trouble as far as leading and or accuracy goes no matter the alloy.

[Bret4207]

From what I know about obturation, a shallow bevel should not have any issues so long as the charge is warm enough.

Too long a bevel would appear to require quite a bit of pressure to get obturation.

Of course, this is all just conjecture. I have no experience with bevel base boolits.

Rocky Raab: IIRC boattail bullets tend to be more accurate at longer ranges. This is with FMJ though.

Okay, I'm seeing this more and more lately. Obturation is a BY PRODUCT of certain load combinations. It is NOT necessary or desired for a load to be accurate. In fact, obturation can lead to many different problems. A properly fitted boolit doesn't "need" obturation to make it fit- it already fits. Obturation is basically smashing the boolit we've spent so much time carefully casting, inspecting, perhaps weighing individually, sizing, lubing and seating into the throat of the rifle in the hope it will swell enough to fit the throat. Every variation in that event can lead to problems of one sort or another.

Sometimes you have to use obturation to get a boolit to fit. But if you stop and think about it all we're doing is by purposely causing a boolit to obturate when we don't need it to is raising pressures and mangling the boolit. It's a makeshift answer to our problems at best. No doubt the barrel is the final sizer and judge, but to me this recent desire for obturation is baffling, and it goes against all the careful prep we do prior to squeezing the trigger.

Just think about it. Run it through your mind a few times.



BTW- Comparing a BT bullet and boolit doesn't work too well. while the aerodynamics remain the same the real world application fails. I don't know the engineering or physics terms, but in laymans terms cast and boat tails don't mix.

[Ron]

I have cast RCBS plain based round nose and semi wadcutter boolits and a Lee 158-358 RF bavel base, using the same alloy for each and have yet to notice any accuracy problems. If anything I would say that the BB Lee in my L frame Smith, using my alloy and my version of Felix lube results in a slightly tighter group at 25 metres from a Ransom Rest.

[Bret4207]

There has been discussion in the past about bevel base boolits being the cause of leading issues due to design. I find this hard to believe since the moulds are not only still manufactured but it appears they are also popular. What are your thoughts?

R.

I used to buy the idea that the bevel concentrated pressure along the boolit/barrel interface and could cause leading. I gave that idea up a few years back thanks to some folks on this board that explained the physics involved. It just doesn't happen that way. I've also come to accept the that in theory a BB should be just as accurate as a FB. But the theory doesn't always translate into real world results. My mould collection contains some BB designs that shoot pretty good. They don't "jump from the mould", they stick sometimes just like FB designs. I still anneal cases and trim and deburr and bell them, just like with FB designs. So far they haven't out shot any FB designs. Some shoot just as well ( what I'm capable of anyway), but they don't group any tighter. So I'm left with the opinion that a BB can do just as well as a FB given the same quality of load development. BUT- a BB moves the CG forward just a bit. The larger the BB, the more it changes. It would take someone with a lot more math than I have to tell us whether comparing a BB to a FB by milling off the BB or opening it with a reamer is more appropriate. Both methods change the CG from the BB, but which leaves the CG closer to the BB CG I don't know. That to me would be the key in comparing the two for accuracy.

I don't not believe a BB is anymore prone to leading then a FB. The problems most likely comes from poor fit and people wanting to boost their velocity. Any number of other design characteristics get the blame for leading, why not the BB? It's an easy answer, lots easier than comparing different size boolits over a period of time.

Why do people keep buying them? Because most people don't expect much out of their guns. I know a guy shoots a combat course of some type. He went out and paid big bucks for a Gold Cup 45 a few years back. Whats he shoot in it? Blazers, surplus, whatever is cheapest. "Why?" I asked him. "Why not use something you know your gun likes and shoots accurately?" His answer (with a pompous air of condescension ) - "Bret, you have to understand I'm shooting at short range in a combat course. I don't need an accurate load." Sez I, "Do you always land your rounds in the "10 ring", do you shoot a a possible every time?" "No." he answered. "Then how do you know the bad shots aren't the ammo and not you missing? Why bother spending the big bucks on a Gold Cup?" .............( sounds of the rusty gears in his head grinding to a halt)....................(crickets chirping)........."Uhhhhhhhhhhh".................. And that's all there is to it for a lot of people. Why do you think there's an ingrained belief that "cast boolits lead the barrel"? Because most people don't ask for more.

As for the hard lubes and undersize boolits so common in commercial examples we're back at "most people don't know any better". I'm absolutely sure that there are people out there making high quality cast boolits with hard lubes that are of great quality. I just haven't bought any from anyone who does that recently. I have older boolits from long defunct makers that are just as good as many of my castings, but I've also spent good money on some that were about worthless to me. They might be great for someone who didn't expect more, but for me they were just fresh alloy.

[Rocky Raab]

Jerry, I think you widened the brush. I just re-read the whole thread and nobody said that ALL bevel-base, nor ALL commercial-cast bullets are garbage. What seems to be in agreement is that (as I said) commercially-cast bullets are the way they are to benefit the caster, not the shooter. Hard alloys, hard lube, undersized bevel-base bullets are indeed popular - but probably for the same reason that prepared food is: people are too lazy or too intimidated to make their own. A box of bullets is convenient - but that is it's only advantage.

We can indeed make better bullets ourselves than we can buy. Some commercial bullets might be almost as good - and some home-cast bullets might be almost as poor.

As a final aside, the boattail on a jacketed rifle bullet is there for a completely separate reason: to maintain velocity at very long range. Benchrest shooters use flat-base bullets because they are more accurate than boattails at all but extreme range.

[243winxb]

Seen a few posts, 9mm Lee BB TL, soft alloy, maximum pressure/velocity, leading barrels. Could be just undersize bullet too?? Seems to get corrected using .357 dia. and BHN of 15/18 air cooled. Never loaded/cast for a 9mm. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Lee124grTCa.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Lee124grTCa.jpg) Love my Lyman 45acp BB 200gr. most accurate of the 4 i have tired. Drops from the mould the perfect size to tumble lube. The lube on the BB is a pain tho if using the Lyman 450.. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_CastBullets_20090207_005.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/CastBullets_20090207_005.jpg) Many different things have an influence on bullets, not just the BB.

[thx997303]

Gah, thanks for straightening out my thinking on obturation.

I do spend time assuring boolit fit, but for some reason when it came to the BB boolits my brain disconnected the knowledge of boolit fit.

[Char-Gar]

Bret... All things being equal, which they never are, bevel base bullets are not the kiss of death. A proper fitting BB bullet of the correct temper alloy will do rather well and not lead more than a FB design.

I had a four hole NEI mold for a 230 TCBB 45 ACP bullet that did exceptionaly well in my handguns. My chief gripe about it, was the bevel tended to accumulate lube which required cleaning. I jumped that snake by placing a gas check in the Lyman 450 to keep the lube off the side of the bullet. That worked after a fashion.

But at the end of the day, that BB bullet didn't offer any advantage over 452460 or a number of other bullet designs. I swaped the mold to another shooter and have never looked back.

I have yet to determine any advantages to BB bullets, other than the easy of loading which I don't consider to be much of a reason.

[Bret4207]

No doubt a lot of the "attributes" of any design are in the eye of the beholder.

[HammerMTB]

Hammer, if you're shooting mixed brass with enough case length variance to create issues with your bellmouths, invest in a Lee case trimmer cutter+lockstud with gauge+shellholder in you caliber. $8 for both from any reloading supplier. Imagine how uneven your crimps are, even if taper crimping.

Gear

Thanks for the tip, GG, but I have resolved it better in my circumstances by sorting brass. I have literally 5 gallon buckets of .40S&W brass, and at first it was easy to just pick it out of the clean pile. Once it became obvious that wasn't the best answer, sorting was a better solution than trimming.
I own a case trimmer, but use it mainly for rifle brass. If its straight walled, I don't want to handle it too many times.
And the taper crimps are fine.

[KYCaster]

Rocky, it looks like you're helping me make my point here.


Jerry, I think you widened the brush. I just re-read the whole thread and nobody said that ALL bevel-base, nor ALL commercial-cast bullets are garbage. What seems to be in agreement is that (as I said) commercially-cast bullets are the way they are to benefit the caster, not the shooter. Hard alloys, hard lube, undersized bevel-base bullets are indeed popularThe only one of the features you mention that is there for the sole benefit of the caster is the bevel base. If "hard alloy" is bad then water dropping would not be popular...heat treating would not be popular...adding Sb would not be popular. Is there any reason that hardness achieved with alloy is inferior to hardness achieved with heat treat? If a "hard lube" allows the same velocity without leading as a "soft lube" why is the hard lube inferior? - but probably for the same reason that prepared food is: people are too lazy or too intimidated to make their own. A box of bullets is convenient - but that is it's only advantage. There are many reasons that people may choose to buy boolits rather than cast for themselves. I think laziness and intimidation are pretty far down the list. Surely you can find a better way to make your point.

We can indeed make better bullets ourselves than we can buy. The commercial casting equipment available is capable of producing boolits that are far more consistant than most hand casters are able to make. Consistant size, consistant weight, consistant hardness, consistant alloy equals consistant results. If the results are consistantly bad, then you have to identify the problem and correct it. That's much easier to do if you're casting your own rather than relying on someone else to do it for you...but...the boolit you're looking for is, most likely, available. It just may take some searching to find it. Some commercial bullets might be almost as good - and some home-cast bullets might be almost as poor. Here's where the broad brush rears it's ugly head. You're saying that the worst of home cast boolits is better than any commercial cast. Do you really believe that?

As a final aside, the boattail on a jacketed rifle bullet is there for a completely separate reason: to maintain velocity at very long range. Benchrest shooters use flat-base bullets because they are more accurate than boattails at all but extreme range.



OK...I gotta quit taking this so seriously. We all base our opinions on what we believe to be true, but it just rubs me the wrong way when somebody presents their opinion as fact. Say it loud enough and often enough and people start to believe it.

Jerry

[StarMetal]

I'm going to side up with KyCaster...Jerry. Tell you why. I know for sure he knows 1911's and shooting them. Most the bullets bought that BB I'll bet are 45's. To say that commercial 45 acp bullets are undersized is a far stroke of the brush. I found out like Jerry through shooting the FB and BB bullets that there are no differences in accuracy. I'd say the bullets that are mostly the wrong size from commercial casters are rifle bullets. That depends too. Too many of you have becomes obsessed with shooting bullets as fat as the firearm will take and discount all commercial bullets as undersized.

If you flare your case mouths correctly it doesn't matter if you load a FB or BB, they both are easy to insert in the case. I like the BB because I feed that bevel aligns the bullet as it's pressed in to case better then a flat base, especially if you don't have a good fitting seater.


Joe

[KYCaster]

jerry you are actually agreeing with what was said.
the slight b/b is not an issue like on the 200 swc but there are designs that go too far.
look at the magma 158 swc bb it is a boat tailed target boolit for a handgun.
i have and still do use hard lubes doubt i'll ever use another soft lube again,unless i go to black powder.
but that type boolit is trouble as far as leading and or accuracy goes no matter the alloy.


R5R...My 38-158-SWC has a very small BB. Proportionally, much smaller than the .44's and .45's. Must be a difference in the cherries they were cut with.

That's what I mean by painting with a broad brush. Somebody who buys a recent Lyman 429421 may conclude that all Kieth designs are crap...doesn't mean it's true.




Anyway....back to the OP....Do BB boolits, by their basic design, cause leading?

As I understand the theory, the bevel directs the gas pressure at the point where the lead meets the barrel, thereby increasing the posibility of gas cutting.

I'll make an assumption here based on what I remember from high school physics...pressure applied to a confined fluid will be transfered undiminished to all areas of the container. I know...it's a gas, not a fluid. That's what I'm assuming...in this case the gas is acting essentially the same as a fluid.

If that's true then the pressure at the point where the lead meets the barrel will be the same no matter what the shape of the base is. A poorly fitting FB will lead to gas cutting the same as a poorly fitting BB.

Jerry

[John Boy]

They had bevel base bullets at least as early as the 1960s
The Ideal 38-55 M bullet (a standard factory 38-55 bullet) is a bevel base bullet that goes back to the 1880's. I just cast 200 of the 255gr ones today from an Ideal #4 Tool/mold. And in a 1949 Ideal handbook, so is the 375248

[Bret4207]

Originally Posted by Rocky Raab View Post
Jerry, I think you widened the brush. I just re-read the whole thread and nobody said that ALL bevel-base, nor ALL commercial-cast bullets are garbage. What seems to be in agreement is that (as I said) commercially-cast bullets are the way they are to benefit the caster, not the shooter. Hard alloys, hard lube, undersized bevel-base bullets are indeed popularThe only one of the features you mention that is there for the sole benefit of the caster is the bevel base. If "hard alloy" is bad then water dropping would not be popular...heat treating would not be popular...adding Sb would not be popular. Is there any reason that hardness achieved with alloy is inferior to hardness achieved with heat treat? If a "hard lube" allows the same velocity without leading as a "soft lube" why is the hard lube inferior? Okay, gotta jump in here. The reason "hard alloy" is popular, the reason "water dropping/heat treating" is popular has nothing to do with "good or bad". It has to do with peoples belief that "harder is better". People don't want leading and want to shoot as fast as they do with jacketed and since the faster they go the more often they lead they ASSUME a harder alloy will stop the leading. It doesn't help that "HARDCAST" has been pushed by the commercial makers for years. Softer alloys and lubes can work fine, especially for the caster/reloader who understands what he's doing. The average Joe off the street see's 2 boolits and you tell him one is harder than the other and he'll take the harder one every time. He doesn't ask about size or lube, it's harder so it must be better. Same as showing him a HP/BT and a plain ol' RN Core-lokt. Ask him which one is better for hunting and 19 out of 20 will pick the HP/BT, even if it's a pure target bullet never intended to hunt with. It's no reflection of reality, it's all in perception. We know we can make a harder alloy that will work fine. We also know we can take a softer, more readily available, less expensive alloy and it will work fine too. But, God as my witness, you set two boxes of boolits on a counter and price them the same and 99 out of 100 guys will take the one marked ".357 20 Bhn" over the one marked ".359 12 Bhn". - but probably for the same reason that prepared food is: people are too lazy or too intimidated to make their own. A box of bullets is convenient - but that is it's only advantage. There are many reasons that people may choose to buy boolits rather than cast for themselves. I think laziness and intimidation are pretty far down the list. Surely you can find a better way to make your point.I have to disagree completely. People are LAZY and casting is an unknown. It's all I can do to get people to try a cast laod, getting them to cast is waaaaaaayyy down their list of "things I'm willing to do".

We can indeed make better bullets ourselves than we can buy. The commercial casting equipment available is capable of producing boolits that are far more consistant than most hand casters are able to make. Consistant size, consistant weight, consistant hardness, consistant alloy equals consistant results. If the results are consistantly bad, then you have to identify the problem and correct it. That's much easier to do if you're casting your own rather than relying on someone else to do it for you...but...the boolit you're looking for is, most likely, available. It just may take some searching to find it. Some commercial bullets might be almost as good - and some home-cast bullets might be almost as poor. Here's where the broad brush rears it's ugly head. You're saying that the worst of home cast boolits is better than any commercial cast. Do you really believe that?There's no doubt the casting machines can make fantastic boolits. I have a feeling you probably make a fine boolit. That doesn't mean all the other guys out there are taking the same care you are. My experience with Lazer Cast was horrible. My experience with a defunct company called Green Bay was fantastic. But given the choice between buying or making my boolits I'll make them because I know I can cast a very good boolit and it'll be sized like I want it with a lube I know to be effective. That's not a reflection on commercial casters, that's a reflection me and my preferences.

As a final aside, the boattail on a jacketed rifle bullet is there for a completely separate reason: to maintain velocity at very long range. Benchrest shooters use flat-base bullets because they are more accurate than boattails at all but extreme range.


OK...I gotta quit taking this so seriously. We all base our opinions on what we believe to be true, but it just rubs me the wrong way when somebody presents their opinion as fact. Say it loud enough and often enough and people start to believe it.

Jerry

It works the same way if you say ALL commercially cast boolits are "better" than home cast.

[Rocky Raab]

Thanks, Bret, you said it very well.

Frankly, I've lost track of who is quoting whom here: "Some commercial bullets might be almost as good - and some home-cast bullets might be almost as poor."(my statement) "Here's where the broad brush rears it's ugly head. You're saying that the worst of home cast boolits is better than any commercial cast. Do you really believe that? (the reply)

That's truly a broad brush all right, but I'm not the one wielding it. When I qualify a statement with some and might yet the reader takes it to mean "all" and "does" then the reader has a reading comprehension problem.

Let me try again. Cast bullets can be good or bad, no matter who casts them. Bullet moulds can be good or bad, and can change over time.

[686]

i would say the average comm. bullet is a better casted bullet than the average home made casted bullet. just look at them. i think bb bullets are a part of a shooting tool. if you play a shooting game where you shoot 40 rds under time you do not use a single stack 45 against a double stack 45. if you need to cast a lot of bullets fast , the bb bullet works best. if you need to load a lot of ammo in a short time you do not use a single stage loader. and if you want very clean ammo right out of your loader with no cleaning you do not use soft sticke lube. the hard clean stuf works quite well. i am not saying that certin people can not cast bullets beter than other people as i am sure they can. when speed is a need then you use the tools that give you the most. for some people that is to buy there bullets and others to buy there ammo. for some extra speed in a match is to shoot jacket bullets over cast. i know you are wondering how can you run a corse faster with jacket bullest over cast, well i will tell you. if you are shooting early in the day and there is no breez, the smoke from a cast bullet sits there making it harder to make multiple shoots. the jacket bullers are better in this case. i take both to a match. i also cast, load, and shoot fb bullets. have a good charles

[KYCaster]

Bret and Rocky...Like I said, I have to stop taking this personally.

Nowhere have I said that commercial cast boolits are better than those you cast yourself. What I take exception to are statements like, "FB is good, BB is bad". Or, "softer boolits are better than hard boolits". And it's even worse when it's presented as if it is fact rather than opinion. We all, from time to time, are guilty.

Rocky's statement, "Some commercial bullets might be almost as good - and some home-cast bullets might be almost as poor.", is kind of a round about way to make his point. I'm pretty sure I understood what he meant, and he clarified that in his last post...but what he meant and what he wrote are not the same thing.

Yeah...I know...bickering about semantics like I'm doing doesn't help anything. Sometimes I just like to vent.

The fact is(and my point), commercial casters provide a valuable service to lots of shooters, and get a lot of grief from some posters here.

OK, I'll shut up now and go back to my corner.

Thanks for listening
Jerry

[Char-Gar]

Like everything in this world there are differences in commercial casters and the products they offer. In the days of yore folks like Markell offered hand cast bullets of a proper alloy that were as good as anything that could be made in anybody's garage. Bullshop still offers high quality hand cast bullets with a choice of alloys. Dry Creek Bullet Works before it folded made some great bullets. I still have some. I am certain their are other good commercial casters, I just have not tried their products.

With the advent of the automated casting machines, mass producted cast bullets became a reality. The low end of this market produce the rock hard, bevel base, worthless wax lube bullets that seem to be the source of much discontent.

The old Bull-X company was one of the first such companies and I had the same problems with their products as everybody else. I learned that you could buy their bullet raw (unsized) and size and lube them yourself, which did away with many of the problems.

At the end of the day, I still have a strong preferance for my own products, but if forced to use commercial cast bullets, there are good companies and ways to work around the most egredious problems of the not so good companies.

Bret is correct is that much of what is posted on this and other boards is individual preference, but some individual preferences have a strong base of experience behind them and others do not.

Everybody has an opinion, but not opinions are equal. There are educated opinions based on experience which can indeed point to facts. Then there are uneducated opinions stated as fact. There is far too much of the later and to little of the former on boards such as this.

[runfiverun]

you ain't kidding about those markell's i thiink i still have a few of them around.
i shot a few and went looking for the mold they used. found it and duplicated their lube through trial and error.
at least as close as i could.
now how often do you hear of a home caster copying a commercial one?
if it works it works,and like jerry said consistency is the key.
at least the commercial guys use the same alloy fom batch to batch.

[Cap'n Morgan]

A poorly fitting FB will lead to gas cutting the same as a poorly fitting BB.

True, but the FB will seal more readily than the BB once the pressure is high enough to deform the base - and a hollow base even more so.

[Rocky Raab]

As a professional writer, I think I know as much about that craft as a commercial caster does about bullet making - but I agree with Jerry that discussing the point is fruitless.

If we may return to the original post's question; my opinion (if worth anything) is as follows:

Some bevel-base commercial bullets may cause leading, but it is not necessarily the bevel that is the prime culprit. Any bullet that is too hard for the pressure at which it is fired, too small for the bore in which it is fired, or contains an inadequate lube will likely create leading in the barrel. But blaming that leading on the shape of the bullet base may not be any more legitimate than blaming the shape of the nose.

[Echo]

I know...it's a gas, not a fluid. That's what I'm assuming...in this case the gas is acting essentially the same as a fluid.



As an aside, the gas IS a fluid - it is NOT a LIQUID.

I have spoken.

[Char-Gar]

Runfiverun-- Markell used Hensley and Gibbs molds. My favorite was a hollow point version of the Phil Sharpe .38/357 SWC. For an extra buck per hundred, Markell would put a copper wash on those bullets and call them their "Golden Arrow" line. They sure were pretty, but I doubt if that wash contributed anything to shooting qualities of the bullet.

I killed my first deer with a hangun useing the above bullet over a dose 0f 2400 in a 5.5" Colt New Frontier (357 Magnum) about 1965 give or take a year. Killed that little Texas Hill Country whitetail grave yard dead.

[BAGTIC]

If your bullets are large enough to start with they will obturate regardless of pressures.

[StarMetal]

Runfiverun-- Markell used Hensley and Gibbs molds. My favorite was a hollow point version of the Phil Sharpe .38/357 SWC. For an extra buck per hundred, Markell would put a copper wash on those bullets and call them their "Golden Arrow" line. They sure were pretty, but I doubt if that wash contributed anything to shooting qualities of the bullet.

I killed my first deer with a hangun useing the above bullet over a dose 0f 2400 in a 5.5" Colt New Frontier (357 Magnum) about 1965 give or take a year. Killed that little Texas Hill Country whitetail grave yard dead.

Do you still have that revolver? Those are sweet looking SAA's.

Joe

[Bret4207]

If your bullets are large enough to start with they will obturate regardless of pressures.

I'm not sure what you mean. Obturation is the boolit, or at least part of it-usually the base, swelling or riveting from the pressure. If the boolit is throat size to start with it can't obturate.

[StarMetal]

I'm not sure what you mean. Obturation is the boolit, or at least part of it-usually the base, swelling or riveting from the pressure. If the boolit is throat size to start with it can't obturate.

I believe he means they would swage/size down to a tight fit/seal.

Joe

[runfiverun]

he is thinking obduration.
obturate is to deform
obdurate is to form a seal.

[Three44s]

What works for a mild load such as typical .45 auto loading or the equivalant pressures in .44 mag or specials ..........

......... and what works in "for business" loads in the .44 mag or .45 lc ....... are two different things.

I have no problem using BB bullets for plinkers in my round shooters.

But when "business" needs doin' ...........

Hand my loads using the RCBS 250K to me.

...... with a lube that's not designed for bouncing in a UPS truck over long rough roads but rather .............

......... for business

Three 44s

[XWrench3]

The only experience i have with bevel base boolits is from a box of dardas 44 caliber pistol boolits that i bought just prior to getting my casting equipment. For me, these shoot fine, leave little lead behind (after coating them with lee liquid alox), but they are as hard as ball bearings. I have shot some directly at different things, to specificly dig them out, to see how they worked. In everything from sand to oak trees, they come out just like they left my barrel. Even at full blown 44 magnum loads. Great for penetration, but there isn't any mushrooming/expanding. The only time that i have even found a deformed boolit, is when i dig one out of a tree that another boolit has hit.

[Bret4207]

he is thinking obduration.
obturate is to deform
obdurate is to form a seal.

The closet definition for obdurate I can find is "resistant to change". Merriman-Webster doesn't close to that. Wiktionary has these- hardened, hard-hearted, impertinent, intractable, unrepentant, unyielding, recalcitrant.

Where'd you get that it's a seal? Not saying it isn't, just wondering where it came from.

[StarMetal]

The closet definition for obdurate I can find is "resistant to change". Merriman-Webster doesn't close to that. Wiktionary has these- hardened, hard-hearted, impertinent, intractable, unrepentant, unyielding, recalcitrant.

Where'd you get that it's a seal? Not saying it isn't, just wondering where it came from.

Read this dictionary meaning: Rare to close (an opening); stop up; obstruct

So let's take that first part, stop up. The bullet expanded and stopped up the bore. See what I'm getting at? It obturated. But, don't think of it as it stopped there and plugged the bore.

Joe