not all gunsmiths are reputable

[targetshootr]

In the last twelve or so years I never had a custom gun done poorly but it finally happened. I found a new-to-me gunsmith's website by chance and after swapping emails I sent him a old model Ruger 357 conversion to 44 spl. I also sent a 4 5/8" 44 cal barrel so it was a matter of rechambering the cylinder and doing some cosmetic work.

After about six months it came back but the action wasn't right by any stretch so I emailed him and then sent it back but it came back no better than it was. It felt like some factory Colts that feel like you must be doing damage every time you cock it. So then I sent it to a well-known smith who repaired the action and several other things I was unaware of, and would you believe he said the cylinder had been reamed to 44 mag instead of 44 spl.

So I contacted the original smith and sent him a copy of the second smiths list of fixes. At first he said he'd buy back the gun for all the custom work I had spent on it but then he changed his mind. So I wrote the Atty Gen office in Maine but he refused mediation. Apparently AG cases like this are voluntary...?

So I guess I'm out a bunch of money and own a gun I can't sell in good conscience. It's a terrible feeling to get burned like that and I wish there was something I could do but I don't know what except to warn others that not all gunsmiths are good gunsmiths.

[EDK]

If you have documentation for all these antics, you might try small claims court. If he made some claims on the web site and then screwed up, you might have a case...but I wouldn't hold my breath.

One thing you can do is contact AMERICAN PISTOLSMITHS GUILD. If he is a member, you will get things straightened out to YOUR satisfaction...and THEY will get him to clean up his act or get removed from the organization.

My pistolsmith is Jim Stroh (ALPHA PRECISION) former Pistolsmith Of The Year and he was (is?) secretary of the Pistolsmiths Guild....a true gentleman and an artist recognized by his peers...and everyone who has ever dealt with him.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

[targetshootr]

I just emailed him to see if they have any authority over non-members. Jim customized a 45 Bisley for me last year and a local guy has a bunch of guns customized by him that are gorgeous.

[Pepe Ray]

For what reason do you choose to not reveal his name?
Pepe Ray

[targetshootr]

For what reason do you choose to not reveal his name?
Pepe Ray

Until it's over I probably won't. If anyone needs to know just pm me.

[Char-Gar]

I am sorry, for your problems. I have also got bad work from some of the big names in the in the custom handgun business. Long story, short is if I can't do the work myself, I don't send it off. Why should I pay somebody to screw up my gun. I can do that for free, but thankfully I have not and learned allot in the process.

[targetshootr]

Unfortunately the Pistolsmiths Guild only deals with it's members. It's surprising that a trade as dangerous as gunsmithing doesn't answer to anyone. Here in NC, even hairdressers have to be licensed. And my trade, electrical contracting, seems to answer to everyone and their brother.

[targetshootr]

This is what the second gunsmith sent me when he finished:

"l have the 44 spl flat top finished. l had to retime the action. Also the cylinder throats measured .422 opened them up to .431. The chambers are long enough to slide in 44 mag brass. It shoots good but l wouldn't shoot any mag loads in the small frame gun. The front sight needed to be replaced as in shooting the gun it came loose. The only thing holding was the screw that was installed in it.
The barrel shoulder was not seated against the frame, it was just locktited in. l set it back one thread & re-fit it to frame. Also the forcing cone was way too big. lt helped, shortening the shank, but it's still a little oversized but it still shoots pretty good. Total is $___ with return shipping."

[S.R.Custom]

It's surprising that a trade as dangerous as gunsmithing doesn't answer to anyone...

That's because its market/constituency hasn't clamored to the government for measures that "protect" the customer and make the trade "safer" for the consumer. In an increasingly socialist nanny-culture, the gun trade remains this nation's purest example of free market capitalism. (So it comes as no surprise that at a time when the rest of the economy is in the crapper, the gun trade is flourishing.)

As someone in that trade, I urge Targetshootr to post the name of the incompetent gunsmith; it ain't libel if it's true. Word of mouth and reputation are the only tools we have in policing the trade. While at times this may seem inadequate --particularly when it's you getting fleeced-- it's much better than having the gun trade regulated by governmental fiat.

[targetshootr]

That's because its market/constituency hasn't clamored to the government for measures that "protect" the customer and make the trade "safer" for the consumer. In an increasingly socialist nanny-culture, the gun trade remains this nation's purest example of free market capitalism. (So it comes as no surprise that at a time when the rest of the economy is in the crapper, the gun trade is flourishing.)

As someone in that trade, I urge Targetshootr to post the name of the incompetent gunsmith; it ain't libel if it's true. Word of mouth and reputation are the only tools we have in policing the trade. While at times this may seem inadequate --particularly when it's you getting fleeced-- it's much better than having the gun trade regulated by governmental fiat.

I disagree. Because it's unregulated, people like this gunsmith can get away with most anything. As far as I know, my only chance of holding him to account would be in a courtroom which isn't feasible when business like this is done over the internet.

For the same reason, Wall St can bankrupt the country and answer to no one because regulations have slowly been peeled away.

[J White Gunsmithing]

Targetshootr,
I see you have started the fulfillment of your threat to discredit me on the internet forums that you are a part of. It is your right to say what you desire. I do certainly agree with Super Mag. As my business has been built primarily by word of mouth so should the complaints also be heard.
But, you might as well be open with names. I am attaching the letter I sent to the AG's mediator who agreed that you were probably a person that would not be happy no matter what the outcome.
************************************************** ************************

As it is my belief that this matter can not be resolved to the satisfaction of the consumer I am submitting a statement of my position.

I asked Mr. Watterson a series of questions after he mailed me a box of parts that he had picked up from various sources. They included a small frame Ruger single action revolver frame made sometime in the late 60’s early 70’s, a cylinder of the same style and vintage chambered in 357, grip frame and after market grips. There was also a barrel from a new model Ruger single action 44 Magnum and miscellaneous after market parts for the new style “post 1976” Ruger single action revolver. These parts were in suitable condition for a conversion as requested; the only reservation was a weld that did fill in part of the rear sight area (because of its unknown origin). After inspecting and doing the appropriate milling the weld was not an issue. My questions were to clarify the desired outcome of the project as custom projects like this are unique and individual. It is important to make sure that all of the specifications are discussed first. One of the important questions I ask my custom revolver customers is will you be using factory specification ammo or venturing into larger cast bullet loads (which is common for hand loaders in such firearms). He indicated that he would be using these larger cast bullets.

After completing his project he sent me an email in January where he referred to me as a start up business and that he was surprised that I charged as much as another notable gunsmith (Bowen). He stated “when I started my electrical business years ago I worked for very little money”. I believe this is the root of the controversy. His intention has been to buy cheap parts and to receive a finished product by paying an inexperienced gunsmith less than the job was worth. He had never asked for a quote and my prices have been established for some time. In fact I have been employed as a gunsmith for 19 years now and I have been in this location since 2001.

The specifications for the project were to clean up the weld (most shops refuse to do this), rechamber the cylinder to 44 special (keep in mind the heavy cast bullets), shorten the barrel, remove the writing that is on the new model barrels so that it would match the old style revolver frame (most shops refuse to do this), fit micro sights to the welded frame, modify and fit new style cylinder pin to the old style cylinder and frame, attach front sight, change the angle of the forcing cone in the back of the barrel to work better with cast bullets, reblue the whole project, polish the aluminum grip frame and fit the after market grips.

Once the project was complete I brought the revolver to my range and fired several cylinders of ammo. It performed very well. The accuracy was everything that could be expected

from a modified factory barrel and looked and handled well. After Mr. Watterson received the revolver he emailed me saying that he could feel a hitch in one stage of the cycling of the cylinder and wanted to know what he should “file”. He also accused me of creating excessive end play in the cylinder, saying that it did not move as much when he sent it to me, even though it would have been impossible to judge because the cylinder and frame did not have a fitted cylinder pin. I in turn asked him to send the revolver back. After I received it I measured the end play that was not out of spec and installed an end play bushing that brought it to a minimum tolerance at no charge, retested the revolver on the range and shipped it back to Mr. Watterson. Upon receipt he chose not to fire the revolver himself but instead mailed it to a gunsmith named Andy Horvath. Mr. Horvath said in his letter (enclosed) that he fired the revolver and it shot “good”. Note that Mr. Horvath stated that the chambers would allow 44 magnum brass to slide in, not that it had been chambered for 44 magnum. It had in fact been chambered for 44 special anticipating the use of the extended oclave bullets that are commonly used by hand loaders. Two more points that he made were the throat diameter and the depth of the forcing cone angle, as these are custom specifications there is no standard for either measurement and I prefer to use the smaller throat diameter and the deeper forcing cone, note that at the end of the letter Mr. Horvath says that after he did modifications the gun now shoots “pretty good”. Which leaves in question whether or not the barrel was in fact held in by “Locktite”? It most certainly was not, though I do use the product when installing barrels. The other problem was the front sight. I commonly use a screw and silver soldier on these front sights. I don’t believe that the soldier would come loose while the screw held in place, but I guess anything is possible. I believe that it is more probable that when loosening the screw that was installed while the soldier was hot the sight was broken loose, either way the front sight installation is $25.

In conclusion of my statement on this matter I feel that the services requested had been clarified before hand by me and performed in a manner that was more than reasonable. That in every circumstance I did everything in my power to provide the customer with a finished product such as he had described prior to the undertaking of the project, and that even after doing extra work at no cost and having a third party testify to the product working “good” I agreed to purchase the revolver from Mr. Watterson per his letter requesting such, dated 6-17-09 (enclosed) in which he compared yet a forth gunsmith to the prices charged by Mr. Horvath and myself. He in turn sent an email stating that he changed his mind and wanted an additional $400. I have always made it a practice to satisfy my customers. I can only think of two occasions in which the necessity to provide a refund was the outcome. I have a wide range of customers both in state and out of state of which range from law enforcement including local officers from Wells to Ft. Kent, sheriffs, investigators for two county DA’s offices, doctors, Philadelphia lawyers, hunters that frequent Africa, at least two noted sports writers, one of the team members for one of the largest hunting video families in the country, and demographically from Louisiana to Washington State and Arizona and most points in between. I have several hunting guides that utilize my custom revolvers when in pursuit of wounded dangerous game including several local bear guides. I don’t say this to brag but I can provide a large range of satisfied customers and I can also provide the names of some that had valid complaints that I willingly took care of and in all but one other case have been return customers after the incident. And in the other case there is no animosity and he is quite satisfied with the refund that he did not expect. I do not feel at this point that it is my responsibility to purchase the revolver from Mr. Watterson nor to give him any

compensation on the contrary I have been the one that has spent unnecessary resources and time trying to appease the situation.


Sincerely,



James L. White

[targetshootr]

It's odd that after you received my last letter you agreed to buy the gun for the money I had spent on it. I was even willing to take a loss on the base gun itself.

Later it occurred to me I shoudn't be out money just because I sent you the work, which you clearly made a mess of.

I believe any reputable business should make good on their work or reimburse the customer. If I did such shoddy work and refused to fix it, I'd be hauled in front of the State Board of Examiners in a heartbeat.

Sadly, I dont have such an option here. I'm stuck with a gun I don't dare sell that you refuse to do anything about.

[waksupi]

Mr. White, I appreciate you stopping in to give your side of the story. Having said that a .44 magnum would chamber in this revolver does make me question if the job was done correctly. It should not have been possible.

[wiljen]

Cast the cylinder in Cerrosafe and measure the chamber dimensions. Post the results including pics with the micrometer. Either it is right or it isnt simple as that. 44 spec chambers are not over length regardless of what bullet you intend to shoot.

I would like to see this settled quickly and it seems to me no reason this wouldn't do it.

Wiljen

[targetshootr]

Cast the cylinder in Cerrosafe and measure the chamber dimensions. Post the results including pics with the micrometer. Either it is right or it isnt simple as that. 44 spec chambers are not over length regardless of what bullet you intend to shoot.

I would like to see this settled quickly and it seems to me no reason this wouldn't do it.

Wiljen

I'm not able to do any of those things myself but Andy Horvath knows more than all of us put together. Keep in mind the throats were also wrong, the action was wrong, the forcing cone was wrong, the shoulder was wrong, the front sight wasn't soldered on...

[leftiye]

The .422 chamber mouths are unbelieveable! (Did anyone fire the gun while so chambered? Seems to me like that might be real dangerous.) Anyone who can't tell the difference between a .44 special and a .44 mag shouldn't be playing with guns atall. Not his own nor anyone else's. As the other gunsmith said, a full house 44 Mag load would probably damage the gun (not to mention the shooter - whoever was so unfortunate). A decent gunsmith can make a .44 special chamber with a .44 mag. reamer, you just limit the cutting depth. So what kind of chambering reamer for .44 caliber has a pilot that will enter a .422 chamber mouth or pilot hole? Given the almost universal messing up of everything that was asked for, the results seem to speak louder than all of us combined. What the other gunsmith found was deplorable. I'm surprised Mr. White was foolish enough to expose himself.

[lathesmith]

.422 cylinder throats? Really? If this is true, you were sent a bomb, not a firearm! OTOH, how could this gun have possibly shot "good" if it was indeed in such dangerous condition?

I could accept an explanation of a gun being chambered for extended ogive bullets might allow for a piece of longer(44 mag) brass to slide in, but the throat question is one that definitely needs clarified one way or the other. I can think of no possible scenario where a custom (or production) gun would be intentionally built with throats this far undersize.
lathesmith

[J White Gunsmithing]

I am not going to get into specific arguments with Andy Horvath's letter. First I have no idea what happened between the time I shipped the revolver and Andy received it. I do know, however, that though I throat smaller than .431 they were not .422. As for the accessibility of chambering a 44 Mag do we no longer need to use our brain in any circumstance? I could chamber a 338 Win Mag in my 7mm STW, shame on me, it would blow up. I could chamber a 3 1/2" turkey load in a light framed trap gun that has had the barrel back bored and forcing cone extended for shooting clays, shame on me, it would probably blow up as well. Simple facts, the gun shoots good, shot good when it left here, shot good when Andy had it. Second fact, Mr. Watterson asked for a $1000 refund I agreed, he then changed his mind and wanted $1400. This after enduring lectures on my need to do work for next to nothing as he did in his electrical business to build a client el. I am back logged more than 6 months with primarily repeat customers. I stand on the truth that the revolver left my shop functioning correctly and safely, grouping consistently and looking good.

[targetshootr]

Exactly right, Mr White charges as much as the big name smiths, the ones who stand behind their work.

If the action on this gun wasn't done so poorly I would not have sent it elsewhere to be repaired and I may never have known about all the other things that were also done poorly.

To this day I haven't fired the gun and of course I can't in good conscience sell a bomb to someone else. But Mr White wasn't so thoughtful since he never informed me that he chambered the gun in 44 magnum.

And he makes it clear he has no plans to make things right. He charged top dollar for the "work" and most of it had to be redone and it still needs a new cylinder chambered in 44 spl and fitted to the gun, which is something else he hasn't offered to do.

A total mess of a job and would you believe on his website he advertises five-shot Bisley conversions? Can you imagine what other handgun bombs are out there.

If there was an authority who oversees gunsmithing like there are in most of the other trades, I can imagine the discussion they would have with Mr White.

[targetshootr]

I think the only I can do if find a lawyer in Maine who will take Mr White to court without me being there. It'll probably cost as much as I'm likely to recover but he clearly needs to be held to account.

[Doc_Stihl]

targetshootr,
Was there any work performed that you can prove was done "incorrectly"?

Was there a labor rate, or quote for the job done before the work was done?

[targetshootr]

targetshootr,
Was there any work performed that you can prove was done "incorrectly"?

Was there a labor rate, or quote for the job done before the work was done?

I have a handwritten letter from Andy Horvath who is one of the premier gunsmiths in the country who I quoted above.

What Mr White charged was very high in my opinion but the point is, all the important work was done incorrectly and it turned my gun into an expensive hazard. I certainly can't sell it like it is and I can't afford to sink any more money into it.

This is a case of a businessperson who won't step up to the plate and I believe it's because I'm out of state and he knows there's not a lot I can do.

[Doc_Stihl]

So you did or did not have a quoted price?


Opinions on how things are done are just that, opinions. I didn't see anything anywhere that was "fraudulant" or egregious(other than the .422 throats, which I don't think is possible, could that handwritten letter have said .429?) A preference on how a gun is timed, or how a barrel is fitted isn't a clear cut right or wrong.

[targetshootr]

So you did or did not have a quoted price?


Opinions on how things are done are just that, opinions. I didn't see anything anywhere that was "fraudulant" or egregious(other than the .422 throats, which I don't think is possible, could that handwritten letter have said .429?) A preference on how a gun is timed, or how a barrel is fitted isn't a clear cut right or wrong.

Mr White's invoice says "357 to 44 spl conversion". All the evidence in the world isn't going to turn him into a reputable person so I don't know why any of that matters.

[Trey45]

Just to throw my 2 cents in. The cylinder was supposed to be machined to 44 special dimensions. If it can accept 44 magnum cartridges, the job was done wrong. Period. No amount of explanation or excuses will rectify that fact. Being able to accept 'the longer bullets handloaders use" has nothing to do with chamber, that is dealt with by the throat. The chamber of a 44 special should NEVER be able to accept 44 magnum cartridges, regardless of what bullet is used.

[Shiloh]

Just to throw my 2 cents in. The cylinder was supposed to be machined to 44 special dimensions. If it can accept 44 magnum cartridges, the job was done wrong. Period. No amount of explanation or excuses will rectify that fact. Being able to accept 'the longer bullets handloaders use" has nothing to do with chamber, that is dealt with by the throat. The chamber of a 44 special should NEVER be able to accept 44 magnum cartridges, regardless of what bullet is used.

Amen!!

This is a disaster waiting to happen.

Shiloh

[bob208]

lets see this guy takes a box full of parts not all of the same model to a gunsmith and says make me a pistol out of it but i want it in a differint cal. he gets it back it works ok but i think he is having buyers remorse. the givaway was when he started crying the gunsmith should not charge as much as someother gunsmith. also a $1000 i think he found out he could get a new ruger in .44 spl for about half what he paid for this put together.

my opinion is this guy could not be made happy no matter what. i know i have been down that road before. and that is why i have closed shop and got a job so i don't have to lission to the crying.

[targetshootr]

lets see this guy takes a box full of parts not all of the same model to a gunsmith and says make me a pistol out of it but i want it in a differint cal. he gets it back it works ok but i think he is having buyers remorse. the givaway was when he started crying the gunsmith should not charge as much as someother gunsmith. also a $1000 i think he found out he could get a new ruger in .44 spl for about half what he paid for this put together.

my opinion is this guy could not be made happy no matter what. i know i have been down that road before. and that is why i have closed shop and got a job so i don't have to lission to the crying.

When your shop was open did you turn anyones gun into a grenade and then refused to do anything about it? That basically what happened here.

[Uncle R.]

Hmmm....
Why does this thread feel a little bit like "deja-vu all over again?"

[MT Gianni]

Just to throw my 2 cents in. The cylinder was supposed to be machined to 44 special dimensions. If it can accept 44 magnum cartridges, the job was done wrong. Period. No amount of explanation or excuses will rectify that fact. Being able to accept 'the longer bullets handloaders use" has nothing to do with chamber, that is dealt with by the throat. The chamber of a 44 special should NEVER be able to accept 44 magnum cartridges, regardless of what bullet is used.

S&W has had several 38's leave the factory able to chamber 357 Mag fwiw. I have handled 3 at least that the owner said had never been worked on upon leaving the shop. H&R handi-rifles aka New England Firearms send out a 357 bbl that the 360 super mag will chamber in. IMO it doesn't make it a bomb if the correct cartridge stamp is on the bbl.

[bob208]

well targetshootr you put the bomb thing to bed when you said the other gunsmith shot it and said it shot good .

[dsmjon]

Unfortunately the Pistolsmiths Guild only deals with it's members. It's surprising that a trade as dangerous as gunsmithing doesn't answer to anyone. Here in NC, even hairdressers have to be licensed. And my trade, electrical contracting, seems to answer to everyone and their brother.


WERD! Need a license to drive... but no test before reproducing. We have some screwwed up priorities!!

[targetshootr]

well targetshootr you put the bomb thing to bed when you said the other gunsmith shot it and said it shot good .

I guess it's clear you don't know much about mid-frame Rugers.

[Trey45]

S&W has had several 38's leave the factory able to chamber 357 Mag fwiw. I have handled 3 at least that the owner said had never been worked on upon leaving the shop. H&R handi-rifles aka New England Firearms send out a 357 bbl that the 360 super mag will chamber in. IMO it doesn't make it a bomb if the correct cartridge stamp is on the bbl.

Just for the sake of curiousity here. If S&W had been informed of these 38 specials being able to chamber 357 magnum, would they,

A: Recall those pistols and make them right.

B: Claim there is nothing wrong with them and allow potentially unsafe pistols to remain "on the open market".

Is every H&R handi rifle barrel in 357 magnum out of spec? If so, they are opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. Don't say it can't happen, remember the lady that sued McDonalds and WON because she spilled her hot coffee on herself and got burned.

I'm really not trying to stir up an arguement here, it's just that to me it seems obvious that a cylinder that's supposed to be cut for 44 special, that can fit 44 magnum cartridges in it was done wrong. Those S&W cylinders that were used as an example above, does that mean it's right because S&W released a 38 special able to accept 357 magnum cartridges? Yes I understand that everyone makes mistakes, it's how they handle those mistakes and own up to them that truly matters, not the mistakes themselves. I'm not a gunsmith, I am however a machinist. When we were given jobs to do, we had tolerence's we had to work within, ours was usually + - .002. Cutting a 44 special cylinder to 44 magnum tolerances is just plain wrong. And making excuses for it by claiming it was done to accomodate the longer bullets handloaders use is also wrong. If my machine shop had been contracted to do this job, and we released a cylinder out of spec like that one is, we would have had to eat that job and do it over, and do it right at the shops expense.

[targetshootr]

A couple of other things; What if someone down the road found out they inherited or stole a 44 mag Ruger... what affect would the .422 throats have had on the pressure? I imagine it would spike, turning it into a magnum +P.

And like leftiye said, what's to prevent this gunsmith from doing the same thing to other guns? Nothing that I know of. There may even be other ticking guns out there right now.

As a public service, this thread should be a sticky on every firearm forum on the internet.

[kelbro]

An important point that we need to understand here is that a guy took a 'box 'o parts' and paid someone that he didn't know, no personal references as far as I can tell, found on the internet of all places, to assemble them into a firearm. Those of you wanting some sort of regulation or accountability on this issue need to understand how most government regulations have transpired in the past. They always swing to overkill.

Manufacturers have been bankrupted by the regulations. If we let the government get further involved, so-called gunsmiths (no offense intended to anybody) would not be able to function. The manufacturers stance would be 'it was fine when it left the factory' and ol' Joe Shadetree assembled up a semi-functional piece of machinery and then tried to launch a projectile through it. 'Of course it blew up!'

In the government's infinite wisdom and in the interest of 'protecting us', any mods to any firearm would be outlawed and the next step would be to force manufacturers to 'tamper-proof' them so no mods could be made. This would bankrupt even more small manufacturers. My point is this, Be careful what you wish for.

[targetshootr]

An important point that we need to understand here is that a guy took a 'box 'o parts' and paid someone that he didn't know, no personal references as far as I can tell, found on the internet of all places, to assemble them into a firearm. Those of you wanting some sort of regulation or accountability on this issue need to understand how most government regulations have transpired in the past. They always swing to overkill.

Manufacturers have been bankrupted by the regulations. If we let the government get further involved, so-called gunsmiths (no offense intended to anybody) would not be able to function. The manufacturers stance would be 'it was fine when it left the factory' and ol' Joe Shadetree assembled up a semi-functional piece of machinery and then tried to launch a projectile through it. 'Of course it blew up!'

In the government's infinite wisdom and in the interest of 'protecting us', any mods to any firearm would be outlawed and the next step would be to force manufacturers to 'tamper-proof' them so no mods could be made. This would bankrupt even more small manufacturers. My point is this, Be careful what you wish for.

That's just political rhetoric. Somehow hairdressers here in NC have managed to function. And I'm someone who despises inspectors of every kind.

[kelbro]

Call it what you will. I have been helping manufacturing companies move to third-world countries for almost 22 years. Everyone thinks that the exodus is profit oriented. Partially true in some cases but most industries have been regulated out of this country.

My last haircut cost me $3, tip included, in China.

[S.R.Custom]

That's just political rhetoric. Somehow hairdressers here in NC have managed to function. And I'm someone who despises inspectors of every kind.

Actually, gunsmiths are regulated. And more stringently than in any hairdresser's blow-dried nightmare...

Gunsmiths and small MFR's are required to be federally licensed, state licensed, and most likely, licensed, taxed, and harassed locally as well. Hairdressers don't have the ATF looking over their shoulder, picking their books apart, and looking for the slightest excuse to shut them down. You, sir, are just frustrated with a perceived level of delivered quality, and as a result of that experience, you think that quality should be regulated. Well, I've got news for you-- hairdressers are no more legally accountable for haircuts that their customers don't like than our gunsmith here.

I can't speak to the specifics of this situation as there have been no verifiable facts offered in evidence; to this point it's been an entirely he-said she-said discussion. But based on the vitriol offered here, I think you both screwed up. You sir, in looking for a bargain, engaged the services of an unknown party. You should've checked him out more thoroughly. And Mr, White, as a gunsmith I wouldn't accept anyone's box-o-parts as a basis for any project. And I'd NEVER take ownership of someone else's welding work on a firearms receiver-- that's just begging for trouble.

Seems to me you both have reaped the rewards of walking through a pasture with your eyes closed. My advice to both of you is put your emotions in check, hose your boots off, and move on.

[Geraldo]

targetshootr, if you wanted an Andy Horvath conversion, why didn't you use Mr. Horvath in the first place? Sending the pistol to him afterward makes me think that you wanted a Horvath pistol at non-Horvath prices or that Mr. Horvath wouldn't accept the project.

Secondly, if choosing someone else to work on this project, Mr. White's site does list pistolsmithing services but also says this in his "about us" section, "We can on occasion be convinced to build a 1911 or rebarrel and tune a Ruger Black Hawk." That doesn't sound to me like their primary business is 1911s and Blackhawks or a ringing endorsement of their work, so why not go to one of the many smiths who specialize in this type of work?

[targetshootr]

Actually, gunsmiths are regulated. And more stringently than in any hairdresser's blow-dried nightmare...

Gunsmiths and small MFR's are required to be federally licensed, state licensed, and most likely, licensed, taxed, and harassed locally as well. Hairdressers don't have the ATF looking over their shoulder, picking their books apart, and looking for the slightest excuse to shut them down.

If that is indeed true, why is there no licensing board for gunsmiths in Maine. Exactly who would anyone contact when a firearm is turned into a grenade. The ATF only concerns itself with dealers, not gunsmiths.


I can't speak to the specifics of this situation as there have been no verifiable facts offered in evidence; to this point it's been an entirely he-said she-said discussion.

It's obvious you're jumping in late without reading the entire thread. Taking potshots at me isn't going to change what this gunsmith did which he has already admitted to if you could be bothered to read.

[targetshootr]

Mr. White's site does list pistolsmithing services but also says this in his "about us" section, "We can on occasion be convinced to build a 1911 or rebarrel and tune a Ruger Black Hawk."

He also advertises five shot conversions on his website. So tell me how could any gunsmith know how to retime a six shot action to a five shot action and not know how to properly time an old model Ruger. And how could he know how to chamber a five shot cylinder but not a six shot cylinder?

[kelbro]

targetshootr, your post is not without merit and I hope it serves as an eye opener to anybody that is considering web-smithing. Please don't think that I am shooting at the messenger.

I will stick with personal referrals from my circle of acquaintances and local shops. I do understand that luxury is not available to everybody so this post should act as a caveat to them.

[targetshootr]

targetshootr, your post is not without merit and I hope it serves as an eye opener to anybody that is considering web-smithing. Please don't think that I am shooting at the messenger.

I will stick with personal referrals from my circle of acquaintances and local shops. I do understand that luxury is not available to everybody so this post should act as a caveat to them.

Not sure how this gunsmith's skills, or lack thereof, turned into my fault but some people seem to think it is. I send two guns a year to Andy but one day he'll retire and I've been looking around for someone to fill in when the time comes. So I sent this guy what i thought was an easy job just to get a feel for his work and his prices.

[jack19512]

So I sent this guy what i thought was an easy job just to get a feel for his work and his prices.







I've been there and done that although not firearm related. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it don't.

[S.R.Custom]

...The ATF only concerns itself with dealers, not gunsmiths...

Ummm... you may not want to run your ignorance quite so high up the flag pole. It doesn't help your case, and it makes the pot-shots incredibly easy...

The ATF is very concerned with custom gunsmiths. So much so that they classify us as type 07 manufacturers, and the license looks like this. And it's a license that carries much more stringent requirements than an 01 Dealer's license:

[targetshootr]

Ummm... you may not want to run your ignorance quite so high up the flag pole. It doesn't help your case, and it makes the pot-shots incredibly easy...

The ATF is very concerned with custom gunsmiths. So much so that they classify us as type 07 manufacturers, and the license looks like this. And it's a license that carries much more stringent requirements than an 01 Dealer's license:

In that case, you need to straighten out local ATF because they disagree with you 100%. Their number here is 336-547-4224.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I don't know either of the people in this disagreement but I can certainly sympathize with the pistol owner that had the work done. Sometime in the late 1960's I bought a Colt sa in 32-20. I paid ninty bucks for it which was not considered a steal at the time. I did not like the cartridge at all. With five grains of unique behind a 120 gr bullit it would bark all the way into next week. It was difficult to wear enough ear protection. At the time , Skeeter was writing one article after another in Shooting Times extolling the virtues of the .44 spl, in a Colt sa of course. I had to have one. I looked for a long time but could never find a new Colt in .44SPL. You could find plenty of .357s with 7-1/2 barrel,but who wants that? The next trip to visit wife's family in Tenn. I went to Dixie Gun Works and bought a barrel and cylinder for .44spl. As I recall they were about twenty bucks apiece. Upon returing to Ca. I took them to what was supposed to be a good gun smith. I found out when I picked up the pistol that they had farmed out the job. I was not pleased. The work looked like it was done at Uncle Pootie's Plow Works. The barrel was 7-1/2 inches so naturally I wanted it cut to 4-3/4. When they replaced the front sight they got carried away with a file and filed the barrel, not just the brazing. The bozo also filed the stud on the barrel down until it only had a couple threads left. When I fired the gun it would sometimes blow the ejector rod housing off the barrel and I usually lost the screw that held it on. Saddest part of this tale. I paid for the butchery. Saving the best for last. No matter what I do the gun shoots a foot high at 25 yrds. I have no idea why. Lesson learned. If you want a gun in a certain configuration, buy it that way. While the Colt was still a 32.20 I paid a fellow club member fifty bucks to carve a set of ivory grips for the pistol. He would make a set of the large S&W magna grips for 100. I tell you, those were the days. I haven't had gun work done by anyone that I wasn't watching and precious little of that, since that very bad experience. I tell you, we can live to regret our druthers. Needless to say the pistol resides in a safe. It still brings tears to my eyes when I look at it.

[targetshootr]

At the time , Skeeter was writing one article after another in Shooting Times extolling the virtues of the .44 spl, in a Colt sa of course.

I bet this is one of those articles:

http://www.darkcanyon.net/Converting_357s_to_44Special.htm

[S.R.Custom]

In that case, you need to straighten out local ATF because they disagree with you 100%. Their number here is 336-547-4224.

You straighten 'em out. It's your skin in this game. (You're not saying that you contracted the services of an unlicensed gunsmith, are you?)

Here's a brief summary of the gunsmith activities that require an 07 license:

http://tinyurl.com/yaxd5mt

If you're interested, I can forward a PDF of the ATF Technical Bulletin that spells this out. PM me your email address...

[targetshootr]

You straighten 'em out. It's your skin in this game. (You're not saying that you contracted the services of an unlicensed gunsmith, are you?)

Here's a brief summary of the gunsmith activities that require an 07 license:

http://tinyurl.com/yaxd5mt

If you're interested, I can forward a PDF of the ATF Technical Bulletin that spells this out. PM me your email address...

Just ask any agent in any office if they ever get involved in disputes over gunsmithing. That's the only issue here.

[waksupi]

Guys, I see no point in beating this any longer. I suggest we let this topic die, and to serve as a caveat emptor.

[targetshootr]

This can die as far as I'm concerned but the biggest issue is yet to be dealt with.

There's a guy up in Maine cranking out grenades disguised as handguns and the people up there should be running around with their hair on fire but so far it's doesn't seem to be a big deal.

[joatmon]

O.K. now I think I got it - You paid 400.00 for a box of parts!!:kidding:

[bob208]

targetshootr i do know alot about the 3 screw rugers.

now why don't answer the question if you are mso in love with this horvath guy why did you take your project to some one else. wanted to save a little money???? was told to take your box of mismatched parts and leave????

[pmeisel]

Bob208, he answered that question several posts ago.

[carpetman]

I have read this with interest and tried to make sure I follow everything and understand it. I did have some questions, so I discussed it with my neighbor that is avid into guns and especially handguns. He said the 44 mag case really shouldn't chamber but if allowances made for a heavier bullet it might. But then that's a so what to him. The shooter has the responsibility of knowing what gun and what round they are loading. A .308 can be loaded into a .270 or a 25-06 for that matter but that is not Win/Rem etc fault---and it is dangerous indeed. He also pointed out that a case that has stretched can create the same situation--the reloader should be checking length. In my way of thinking the report of it shooting good outweighs the what if. The configuration of the gun before Mr Horvath worked on it is no longer available, the needed evidence is gone forever. The bullet fit we must acquit.

[leftiye]

If you believe it. I do believe that Horvath shot it after he fixed it. I, in fact believe everything that Horvath wrote. This is why I also believe targetshooter, he has a witness with no axe to grind, not to mention a real and sterling reputation. I also have no reason to (and can't understand why some here are) use my imagination as to how this crap can be excused or discounted, nor can I imagine any reason in calling targetshooter a liar. If the things Horvath said were true, White would have had to have someone else write his above posts for him, not having a functioning master hand that is.

I understand the common "politically correct" reluctance to not come out and comdemn Mr. White - at least I should say I understand it exists. Why more of you would rather comdemn Targetshootr than White seems a little low and mean to me. Any lawyer (yes there are times when they are experts on something) or cop will tell you that the most salient thing causing people to lie is self interest - either monetary, or otherwise. "Follow the money people," Horvath had nothing to gain. And everything to lose. And if you have a clue about what matters in revolters, he told you a huge number of things that were wrong, and not equivocal.

I tend to be outspoken, and I do step in where the majority will shrink away. I do tend to say whatever I see to be true, and damn the torpedoes. But I don't generally look first to discredit my fellows. I understand that destroying a competitor for a position(also called "stabbing in the back") does remove the competition, but I don't believe in it. Especially when there is no reason in he!! to do so. Apparently some have this poison deeply engrained in their personalities.

[carpetman]

leftyie--If your post was directed at me "if you believe it". I don't think I'm one that anyone views as being politically correct. By all means I'd lean in favor of the consumer if there was a question. Read post #11 and Mr Horvath's letter to Mr White did state the pistol shot good. I took that to mean BEFORE Mr Horvath worked on it. The condition/configuration of the gun when it left Mr White is the question. After someone else works on it, that answer is lost forever. The only answer we have is Mr Horvath saying it shot good.

[2 dogs]

Pretty interesting. I don't know about you
guys, but I have many customs. I don't send
my OM's to the same guy who does my 700
remingtons.

It's pretty clear who are the better sixgunsmiths
in the US. Shortcuts just don't pay off.

[leftiye]

C-Man - Post is Not directed at you. I'm MUCH more inclined to think it shot well AFTER Mr. Horvath worked on it. It would have blown up if he fired it when it was as he described it to be when he recieved it (from what he said he fixed). Mr. Horvath's letter is in post #8. Post #11 is from mr white, and yes, I find him having it shoot well to be suspicious.

[targetshootr]

leftyie--Read post #11 and Mr Horvath's letter to Mr White did state the pistol shot good.

Andy's letter was written to me and he had no idea who the first gunsmith was.

Before I got the gun, Mr White said the gun shot good but how is that remotely possible with the throats sized at .422. And his invoice also said it was converted to 44 spl which was obviously not true.

[Doc_Stihl]

I think if you're gonna come on a public board like this and try to shame a man who's done work for you, you should bring some sort of proof.

I'm not saying that either party isn't saying exactly what they believe to be the truth. But opinions vary, and my idea of a beautiful custom isn't the same as the next guy, and my opinion of an expensive proposition isn't the same as the next guy.

I think Mr. Horvaths reputation is pretty good. And I think if I sent him my slickest pistol I have, I bet he could retime it and improve it. Doesn't mean it needs to be. Doesn't mean it doesn't need to be.

[adkpete]

Maybe it's time this thread is locked. I havent seen much in it about casting and shooting, Just a lot of complaining, from both sides.

[lathesmith]

Does anyone here really believe that anyone(especially a gunsmith) would do a project like this without test-firing it before sending it back to a customer, especially one with a welded frame arriving as a box of miscellaneous parts?Really? Come on now, let's be honest here. In my mind, it means the gun was at least fired--which means it could not have had cylinder throats that measured .422, as firing in such condition would have resulted in a ruptured cylinder, leftiye is right about that.
lathesmith

[J White Gunsmithing]

I appreciate what everyone has said on this forum. I have no axe to grind with anyone. Certainly not Mr. Horvath. I still have all my fingers both my eyes and my hearing is even good. I am coming up on my 20th year in business and I didn't get this far without injury to my being or to my reputation by marketing dangerous work. Unfortunately I did not video shooting this revolver, I do have photographs of it when it left the shop and I did shoot it. As a matter of fact I put 50 rounds through it the first time it left my shop and 50 rounds through it after installing an end play bushing (that wasn't necessary, the end play was not excessive but I tried to make the customer happy), both times it shot well (approximately a 3" group at 30 feet). This should be acceptable for mismatched used factory parts.

I agree with some earlier posts that taking on a basket case job was a bad idea. I knew it was not going to be pleasant when I received an email asking what part to file because he didn't like the way the action cycled. Why he was willing to take a file to something when he isn't willing to shoot it is hard to understand. Mr. Horvath and I have both shot it.

I am not trying to flare this up again but the only reason I did not purchase back the revolver was after he made a request for me to do so for $1000 and I agreed, he then changed his mind and wanted $1400. I have never made a deal and then changed my mind and raised the cost 40%. It wasn't just a number off the top of his head he took the time to type a letter, even though I knew it was probably a case of buyers remorse I still agreed. But I cannot allow myself to be walked on endlessly. I in all good conscience did a job, charged a fair price and have been unjustly accused. Whatever anybody on this forum or anyone else in the world wants to believe I have no doubt in my mind I have been reasonable in this transaction.

If anyone has any direct questions for me feel free to email me but I am going to take the advice of the moderator and be done with this thread.
jwhitegunsmithing@gmail.com

[targetshootr]

In my mind, it means the gun was at least fired--which means it could not have had cylinder throats that measured .422, as firing in such condition would have resulted in a ruptured cylinder, leftiye is right about that.
lathesmith

I'll leave it to you guys to dispute Andy's opinion but I take him at his word. By the way, his letter is handwritten and I sent a copy of it to Mr White.

[targetshootr]

I think if you're gonna come on a public board like this and try to shame a man who's done work for you, you should bring some sort of proof.

As I've already said to another poster who jumped in late, Mr White has admitted he made the chambers longer than 44spl.

[Doc_Stihl]

As I've already said to another poster who jumped in late, Mr White has admitted he made the chambers longer than 44spl.

That doesn't justify coming here and making some very negative statements about his character.

[targetshootr]

That doesn't justify coming here and making some very negative statements about his character.

Why not go back to the beginning of this thread and read the whole thing so we don't have to repeat ourselves.

[targetshootr]

I in all good conscience did a job, charged a fair price and have been unjustly accused.

Lucky for you there's no governing body who oversees gunsmiths. Cause you'd be in one heap of trouble.

[carpetman]

targetshootr--I did go back and re-read and apparently Mr Horvath stating the gun shot good was indeed after he worked on it. Earlier in the day I did try to contact my gunsmith to get his take on this. He was not available, but I did talk to him tonight. There is some conflict of information here from somebody. The .44 mag should not chamber. This would be from a chamber cut too deep---not a throat being oversized. If the reason the .44 mag did chamber was blamed on an oversize throat to allow for heavier bullets to be used would eliminate the possibility of the .422, but even allowing a larger throat for the heavier bullet--the .44 mag should not chamber. The gunsmith I speak of also didn't believe the .422 throat---as one that small the chambering reamer wouldn't fit . 50 rounds fired through a .422 throat would have major problems.

[iron mule]

i agree with ADKPETE this has gone on long enough and i would like to see in the furture if something like this arises again that each party would have 1 post to state thier problem and the other 1 chance to reply to it then each person will be given 1 oppertunity each for a rebutal they could send and answer any pms they wanted but would be limited to the above post any other members could post as they wished as long as they kept it decent to both parties

[Esau]

When I was a contractor, I occasionally had General Contractors try and hire me to fix some job that didn't need to be fixed. You know, customer complained and they were trying to do something, when they probably shouldn't have. Well, I never failed to turn down jobs like that and I always told them the same thing: "if the first guy didn't make them happy, I won't either."

[Buckshot]

...........We've about milked all the juice out of this guys :-) It's getting a tad pale about now.

...........Buckshot