check out the blown up .45/70 guide gun...

[Doc Thornton]

Over on the Marlinowners forum under .45/70 group are pictures of
a destroyed guide gun. Scary.

[Matt_G]

Here's a direct link:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,43117.0.html

[257 Shooter]

That is a hard lesson to learn. It is also a reminder to every one to double check every load and your bore before pulling the trigger.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

That is NO good.

[Hickory]

I knew that cast boolits made from w-w was bad for your barrel!

[waksupi]

70 gr. of Bullseye should be able to do that.

[thx997303]

I noticed toward the bacj of that thread, someone had made the comment that cast boolits with a wide meplat cause detonations in tube fed guns.

Is it just me or does that make no sense?

[Bullshop]

The bolt held. So much for the weak rear locking bolt ah.
Hard to say, barrel obstruction? If yes then it was at the breach not the muzzle.
Over charge? Looks like it let go right at the chamber. Either way I am impressed with the bolt and the strength of the Marlin's breaching systam.
BIC/BC

[elk hunter]

Wow! Glad I wasn't holding on to that one when it went off. Hope the shooter and anyone close by wasn't too badly hurt, but I'm guessing the shooter has some serious hand damage.

I'd sure like to see the barrel up close to see if there is a bulge somewhere that would indicate an obstruction, if not lord knows what kind of a load it would take to do that.

It will be hard to get those pictures out of my mind as I just finished loading some cast rounds for my Marlin 45-70 to take on a deer hunt later this week.

[JRW]

I noticed toward the bacj of that thread, someone had made the comment that cast boolits with a wide meplat cause detonations in tube fed guns.

Is it just me or does that make no sense?

I have read the same thing and the explanation given was the rim is so wide that it allows the boolitt to roam around as it were. The angle then allows th e EDGE of the WFN to catch the primer and then under recoil, go boom when we don't want. Don't know, but been told. Jim.

[thx997303]

Well, I am gonna go ahead and say that explanation makes little sense to me.

Hmm, then again, if the rim were wide enough, and the boolit hard enough, and the primer large enough. Hmm.

[Ricochet]

In the old days they didn't load .45-70s with flat nosed bullets, they were round. The flat nosed ones came along later, and for a long time the round nosed bullets still were loaded. The original 1886 Winchesters and 1895 Marlins shot them. My old Lyman manuals from the '70s listed lots of round nosed loads. Along about the end of the '70s someone decided round nosed bullets might set off the primer of the round in front under recoil and recommended against using any round nosed bullet in a tubular magazine. I've always thought it looked mighty unlikely as the cartridges would tend to tip as above and not put the center of the round nose in line with the primer. I can see how the edge of a flat nose could be more likely to do so. It would be pretty easy to line two cartridges up lying on a flat table and see what part of the bullet contacts the primer ahead, or doesn't. That would be a valid representation of how they would normally line up in a magazine tube. (Under spring pressure they might not always line up the same way.)

[montana_charlie]

Wonder if that is a 'BP Substitute Mistake'.

Some people seem to think the 'substitutes' are actually black powder...and don't realize that the loading of them follows an entirely different logic.

70 weighed grains of Pyrodex, Triple 7, Trailboss, 'whatever'...compressed enough to seat a heavy bullet...could it do that ???

CM

[Ole]

Those pictures have been around a while, but it's good incentive to PAY ATTENTION when you're loading ammo.

After thousands of rounds, it's easy to get complacent and let something slip by.

[use enough gun]

I'd guess barrel obstruction, it takes a hell of a load to blow one up. My old pet load for mine averaged 63,300 cup tested by IMR powder labs with a high of 65,600 cup. I stopped using it after Bill Cole called me with the pressure barrel results. My rifle had digested 3-400 rounds of that load without so much as a blown primer or sticky case. Dave

[Grapeshot]

Looking where the failure occured I'd have to think that he had a squib, levered a new round into the chamber and fired. The bullet weight at that point would be doubled and the powder charge spiked and the barrel came appart at the seams. Take a look at what's left of one bullet under the lever. Looks like impact damage at the base.

Sad. Used to see that every so often on the range when we were qualifying Basic Trainees. Had to practicly beat it into their heads if they had a "pop, no kick" raise their hand for the Drill to clear the weapon.

M16's can come apart like that as well.

[bootsnthejeep]

So far that's been the only "official" explanation I've found.

There's a link over to the Paco Kelly Leverguns board, "86er" on there was at the range when it happened and knew the guy (supposedly). Anyway, that's what they're saying, guy was an inexperienced reloader, had a squib, then tried to stuff another one in behind it, kaboom. Lost a couple fingers. The way that forend was tore up, I can't believe he didn't lose the whole hand.

Too bad, looked like it was a nice rifle. Really like that leather shell carrier. That'd look good on my 1895. Would it be in bad taste to inquire if its for sale now? :holysheep

[Ricochet]

Looking where the failure occured I'd have to think that he had a squib, levered a new round into the chamber and fired.
Exactly what I think.

I had a squib leave one just seated fully into the rifling. I stopped shooting, emptied the rifle and pushed it out with a rod. Perfect slug of the throat end of the barrel.

[GabbyM]

Wonder if that is a 'BP Substitute Mistake'.

Some people seem to think the 'substitutes' are actually black powder...and don't realize that the loading of them follows an entirely different logic.

70 weighed grains of Pyrodex, Triple 7, Trailboss, 'whatever'...compressed enough to seat a heavy bullet...could it do that ???

CM

Not with pyrodex for sure, no way. Not used or studied the others.
Maybe pouring shotgun powder in thinking it was Pyrodex. A case full of WW540 or WW 296 may get er done. Bulseye of course would do it up in aces and spades. Murphy's law says if it can happen it will happen.

[GabbyM]

BTW my vote is for barrel obstruction. Short of a case full of plastic explosives ala black ops I can't see that much pressure building in an open bore. Gun was blown clean in two after all.

[Mike Venturino]

For the fellow that thought that roundnose bullets won't cause magazine tube explosions.......

When the U.S. Army Ordnance Board tested the Marlin Model 1881 the test rifle suffered two magazine tube explosions using standard government 405 grain roundnose, black powder loads with bullets of one to 11 tin to lead temper. Naturally that disqualified the Marlin lever gun from further testing.

Not long thereafter, when Ideal (bought circa 1926 by Lyman) first introduced bullet mould design; #457193 for a flat nose bullet it was labeled "For Marlins."

Mike Venturino

[StarMetal]

The bolt held. So much for the weak rear locking bolt ah.
Hard to say, barrel obstruction? If yes then it was at the breach not the muzzle.
Over charge? Looks like it let go right at the chamber. Either way I am impressed with the bolt and the strength of the Marlin's breaching systam.
BIC/BC

I dunno Dan, appears to me it blew the bolt back to where it's sticking out of the rear of the receiver by 1/2 inch or more and look at the position of the lever. Thing is did the guy try to lever it or see if the lever moved? I don't think it did. So in my opinion the bolt didn't hold, the pressure just gave up after breaking the lug and it all quit there.

Joe

[Heavy lead]

I dunno Dan, appears to me it blew the bolt back to where it's sticking out of the rear of the receiver by 1/2 inch or more and look at the position of the lever. Thing is did the guy try to lever it or see if the lever moved? I don't think it did. So in my opinion the bolt didn't hold, the pressure just gave up after breaking the lug and it all quit there.

Joe

luckily, or it would've been through his forehead

[geargnasher]

I dunno Dan, appears to me it blew the bolt back to where it's sticking out of the rear of the receiver by 1/2 inch or more and look at the position of the lever. Thing is did the guy try to lever it or see if the lever moved? I don't think it did. So in my opinion the bolt didn't hold, the pressure just gave up after breaking the lug and it all quit there.

Joe

I think Dan's point was the guy didn't go to the morgue because the bolt didn't go through his eye socket and out the back of his skull. Looking at the rest of the gun, I would agree that the bolt held pretty darn well. Try that with a Winchester and see how well you do with half your brain missing.

Gear

{edit} HL you beat me to it! I gotta learn to type faster!

[StarMetal]

I think Dan's point was the guy didn't go to the morgue because the bolt didn't go through his eye socket and out the back of his skull. Looking at the rest of the gun, I would agree that the bolt held pretty darn well. Try that with a Winchester and see how well you do with half your brain missing.

Gear

{edit} HL you beat me to it! I gotta learn to type faster!

Interesting, you don't see nearly the number of Winchesters blowing up. It was said on another forum that the metal between the threaded bore for the barrel and bore hole for the magazine tube on the Marlin 45-70 is mighty thin. I'm beginning to believe it. Maybe why Winchester never brought out a Big Bore in 45-70 and elected to resurrect the 1886.

Joe

[Bullshop]

I dunno Joe what do you think about all them 50 Alaskans Jim West makes on 95 Marlins?
The ones I have seen he dont rebarrel he just shortens the barrel to get minimum diameter at the muzzle via the barrel taper. I have never heard of one blowing though I am still waiting as I still dont think its a safe conversion for the very reason you mention and thats why I used an 1886 for my 50.
Also anyone that has done any serious work with a Marlin will know that when you slip over the top for safe pressure with a Marlin the lever will spring open slightly. Not enough to unlock but enough to get your attention. The breach block for the Marlin (not the bolt face) stays engauged with the milled slots in the bolt until the lever is nearly all the way down.
Still my point was that the rear locking bolt that the experts would have us believe will flex in the middle and let the case head rupture didnt happen. The bolt held and the case head appears intact. Capeash Pisano?
BIC/BS

[Ricochet]

For the fellow that thought that roundnose bullets won't cause magazine tube explosions.......

When the U.S. Army Ordnance Board tested the Marlin Model 1881 the test rifle suffered two magazine tube explosions using standard government 405 grain roundnose, black powder loads with bullets of one to 11 tin to lead temper. Naturally that disqualified the Marlin lever gun from further testing.

Not long thereafter, when Ideal (bought circa 1926 by Lyman) first introduced bullet mould design; #457193 for a flat nose bullet it was labeled "For Marlins."

Mike Venturino
Interesting info, thanks!

[ANeat]

I seen a 30/30 marlin that had been dis-assembled like that. It was the result of a mis-labled powder canister (his own fault) and basicly a large charge of handgun powder went in instead of rifle powder.

Tore up his hand pretty good from the forearm shattering but nothing a few stitches and some time cured

[Bullshop]

Yea really 1 to 11 tin to lead, thats interesting. Why so much tin? Musta been for the rough handling they might see. I have a nice collection of recovered mil boolits I may do a hardness test on. These were collected on the praire in the Fort Beauford, Fort Union area at the confluance of the Missouri and Yellowstone. I have 45 500's and 400's, 50's and 44 and 45 pesol boolits. All are hollow base even the 500gn 45's.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

I dunno Joe what do you think about all them 50 Alaskans Jim West makes on 95 Marlins?
The ones I have seen he dont rebarrel he just shortens the barrel to get minimum diameter at the muzzle via the barrel taper. I have never heard of one blowing though I am still waiting as I still dont think its a safe conversion for the very reason you mention and thats why I used an 1886 for my 50.
Also anyone that has done any serious work with a Marlin will know that when you slip over the top for safe pressure with a Marlin the lever will spring open slightly. Not enough to unlock but enough to get your attention. The breach block for the Marlin (not the bolt face) stays engauged with the milled slots in the bolt until the lever is nearly all the way down.
Still my point was that the rear locking bolt that the experts would have us believe will flex in the middle and let the case head rupture didnt happen. The bolt held and the case head appears intact. Capeash Pisano?
BIC/BS

Well Dan we're talking two different things. We're talking about when something goes wrong and the rifle blows up and you're talking about when things are correct like in that Alaskan and the rifle doesn't blow up. I agree with you the Alaskan probably is running that thing area even thinner. Just wonder how close the action is to giving up the ghost? You know the military requires a blue pill for a test. Wonder what how those Marlin Alaskans would handle that? Just how close are they to barely containing the cartridge. I wish I'd hit the lotto Dan, then I could just buy some of these rifle and do blow up test like clarkm used to do.

Joe

[Junior1942]

Back in the 70s I sold an M29 S&W 44 mag to a fellow who shot it with another fellow's reloads. It blew to smithereens. The reloader had two cans of powder on his bench--H110 and Bullseye. Case closed.

After that incident I came to two conclusions: (1) never ever have more than one can of powder on my bench; and (2) never ever shoot another fellow's reloads.

[Mike Venturino]

Junior: That's a good point. As a sort of corollary to that I have a bargain hunter friend who bought a can of "Unique" at a gun show, never minding that the seal was broken. It took the top strap off of his Colt SAA .38-40.

Another point worth mentioning here is about an elderly Texas gent who blew up one of those .450 Marlins. He was a very experienced handloader but evidently was getting a bit confused because he loaded it with Accurate #7 instead of Reloder 7. Lost part of his left hand.

Morning all, we have about a foot of snow here this morning!
Mike Venturino

[bruce drake]

Welcome back Old Man Winter! It's going to be snowing in Upstate NY soon. I'm in Atlanta right now with a cold rainy day.

In a side note, I've always used a RN mold for my 32 Win and 30-30 loads. I may switch to a FN shortly (ok, its just an excuse to buy two more molds.)

I hope to never have an issue with my rifles like the ones mentioned above. That is also why I may be a slow reloader with either a hand press or a single stage press, one shell at a time but I'm a safe reloader.

Bruce

[Ricochet]

I haven't bought or looked at any factory .30-30s in a long time, not owning one. In the '60s and '70s the only flat nosed ones I saw were Winchester-Western Silvertips. Remington-Peters and Federal were round nosed. All of the .30, .32 and .35 Remington factory rounds I've seen were round nosed. Winchester put flat nosed bullets on their .33, .35 and .348 Winchester cartridges, so they may have felt the hard kickers in tubular magazines needed flat noses.

[Circuit Rider]

Just been loading 10 years, but always double check my loads. Now in my late 60's I slow down and make sure of each step as the mind isn't quite as sharp as it once was. Don't want what happened to that Texas gent to happen to me. Mike, used to come through your neck of the woods quite often, pulling yachts from Arlington, Wa. back east or to Fl. With the fresh snow good time to be in your casting shed. I'm sure you have plenty to do. Beautiful part of the U.S. Circuit Rider:castmine:

[StarMetal]

Junior: That's a good point. As a sort of corollary to that I have a bargain hunter friend who bought a can of "Unique" at a gun show, never minding that the seal was broken. It took the top strap off of his Colt SAA .38-40.

Another point worth mentioning here is about an elderly Texas gent who blew up one of those .450 Marlins. He was a very experienced handloader but evidently was getting a bit confused because he loaded it with Accurate #7 instead of Reloder 7. Lost part of his left hand.

Morning all, we have about a foot of snow here this morning!
Mike Venturino

Mike,

I forget which, but the recent Shooting Times has an article about a fellow that just blew a Ruger 44 Mag Blackhawk up. Talking the latest new model here. First one I've seen like that for a Ruger. It was the case of a young reloader reading the powder scale wrong and drastically over charging the case.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Ricochet: You have a good point there on the bullet shapes. I think a factor is also the fact that those soft nose bullets were very soft lead (alloy) and coupled with the milder recoil they weren't considered dangerous in the tube magazines.

Somewhere around here I have some old .33 WCF factory loads that have a recessed primer and it was labeled "safety primer." Don't quote me on that as at age 60 now my memory isn't perfect. If I can find that box or some rounds from it I'll post about it.

Yes, this is a beautiful area and I love it. But I love the snow less and less each year. The good point of it is that snow triggers the primeval bullet casting instinct in me so that's what I will do this afternoon.

Still this much snow this early is odd. Thank heavens for "global warming." Think about how much we would be having otherwise!

Time to work.
Mike V.

[curiousgeorge]

Hey Mike,

Years ago I read one of your articles about the round nose bullets in Marlin lever actions which is why I went with the 311041 for my .30-30. Had never really thought about it until then, but had wondered why only certain bullets where listed in the Lyman catalogs for the .45-70 Marlin and then others for the single shots.

This Kentucky boy feels like a fish out of water right now. Boston, MA is a nice place to visit but doesn't look too much like the hills and hollers that I left yesterday.

[Ricochet]

Had never really thought about it until then, but had wondered why only certain bullets where listed in the Lyman catalogs for the .45-70 Marlin and then others for the single shots.
And like I said, back in the early '70s both Lyman's regular loading manual (I don't have it handy to read off the edition, but I kinda think it might be 48) and their cast bullet manual had loads for the 1886 Winchester with round nosed bullets like the #457406. Maybe they forgot.

[TAWILDCATT]

I load my 30/30 with 311291 and I see no problem.reminds me of the lebel and the pointed bullets with the base grooved to take the tip.and the swiss and german 71/84 they all were RN.I have several swiss original loaded cart.