.450/400 Nitro Express

[Glen]

Does anybody have any favorite loads for the .450/400 Nitro Express? I just picked up a Ruger #1H from a buddy of mine, and I will have to start working up loads for it later this fall.

[shooter93]

I'm assuming you mean for cast boolits. My double gun won't shoot cast, it was made in 1913 and the barrel is a bit rough but it shoots j-bullets well. IMR 4831 is a common powder for the caliber, 80 grains regulating for cordite with 400 grain bullets. reloader 15 is another common powder.

[NoDakJak]

I used to shoot the 450-400 3 1/4' version. At that time our club only allowed Black Powder or Pyrodex. If I remember correctly I shot a case full of Pyrodex Cartridge behind a Green Bay, 300 grain boolit that was meant for the 405 Winchester. The rifle was a Daniel Fraser, Side Lever, Falling Block with Lancaster rifling. There was no leading and accuracy was very good. I kicked butt with it in a couple matches. This information probably doesn't transfer directly to your version but I hope that it provides inspiration. Good shooting. Neil

[LIMPINGJ]

Glen , I just got one recently and have been gathering the needed items to get started loading for it. Have you found a mold you are going to start with? Most of the .40 cal molds seem very pointed and ment for BPCR loads. I have been looking for something to match the factouy roundnose shape or a flatnose.

[Glen]

NEI has several. The one I will be starting with is the .411-350-GC (#225A). The 350 grain weight is presumable for linotype, as they weigh right at 370 grains when cast with WW alloy out of my mould.

[BerdanIII]

.450/.400 BPE and NE Data

From: Solving Problems in English, K. Waters, Handloader's Digest, 6th Ed.

"The 450/400-2 ⅜" B.P.E. (Black Powder Express)

Years ago I cobbled up ammunition in this caliber for a nice little Alex Henry single-shot with right-side hammer. I recall that I used to thin the rims of .348 Winchester cases (removing brass from the front side only), then full-length resize and fire-form. The case which resulted was 1/10" short, but seating bullets farther out took care of that and I wasn't dependent on any imported components.

With a muzzle velocity considerably under 2000 fps, I was able to use 260-gr. plain base cast bullets sized .406" - .407", from a mould originally intended for the .40-65 and .40-82 Winchesters. This can still be done to produce darn fine deer loads at short range."

450/400-2 ⅜" B.P.E. - 260 cast lead - 35.0 - IMR3031 - Win. 120 primer

The 450/400-3¼" B.P.E.

Taking the same bullets as the preceding 2 ⅜" case, new empty unprimed Kynoch cases using the No. 172 Berdan primer are still available (1972) from Oregon Ammunition Service. There is simply no alternative, much as we'd like to use Boxer primers.

During the years when the Connecticut Cartridge Co. was making bullets for old American calibers, I used to load their 260-gr., .406" jacketed soft points, with large exposed lead noses, in a 450/400 Purdey hammerless double rifle, but with that source of supply closed off, dependence must be placed on hard cast 260-gr. slugs from Lyman mould #403169, and sized .406" - .407". If not driven too fast, these will do a job on anything up to and including moose. "

450/400-3¼" B.P.E. - 260 cast lead - 42.0 - Re 7 - Berdan primer

From: Powder Keg, R. Seyfreid, Handloader #230, August 2004

"Q: I am trying to get loading data for the .450-400 3-inch Nitro. I am shooting both cast bullets and 400-grain Woodleigh bullets in Bertram cases. I also need to know about the Dacron filler. Do I need it in the .400?"

A: There are two variations of the .450-.400 x 3-inch cartridge. The "trade" model had a thin (.040-inch) rim and normally used 60 grains of cordite with a 400-grain bullet. Jeffrey used a thick rim and only 55 grains of cordite. Either one likes the 1.19 multiplier of Reloder 15, with a Federal 215 primer as a duplicate to the original full-power loads. That is to say, 1.19 times the 55- or 60-grain cordite charge. Normally, you do not need Dacron in the .400s. However, if you experience any form of hangfire (this will probably be as minute as your thinking you can hear the hammer hit before ignition), add 3 grains of standard polyester pillow stuffing over the powder. This load is compatible with the Woodleigh softpoint bullet. If you use their solids, reduce the powder charge 2 grains.

For cast bullet shooting in the .400s, we discover a wonderful phenomena in cordite double rifles. Against all conventional wisdom, they will usually regulate perfectly with a very reduced load, by simply pretending they were black-powder rifles. Now we turn to the nitro-for-black-powder formula. The 3-inch case was not a black-powder round, but its 3¼-inch older brother was. It normally used 100 to 110 grains of black and 230- to 260-grain bullets. Hodgdon 4198 is the powder of choice. The formula is now 40 percent of the black powder weight.

Load with a standard Large Rifle (not magnum) primer and begin with 42 grains of 4198. The nitro-for-black loads must use Dacron; 10 grains will be correct, over the powder. Add a hard 230- to 260-grain, .41 Magnum pistol bullet and you will have a nice, friendly deer load. Most rifles regulate perfectly, although it is often necessary to use the 200-yard sight leaf to get correct elevation at 100 yards."

Note: In Miniature Black Powder Express Cartridges, Handloader #225, Seyfried states the Dacron must fill the case and not be tamped down on the powder as a wad.

From: Reloading the Nitro Express, R. Seyfreid, Handloader #202, December 1999

"Unlike the earlier black-powder rifles, most nitro rifles will have the service load stamped on the barrel flats as part of the proof marks. This usually specifies a maximum load of cordite and bullet weight. One usually encounters something like "cordite 70-bullet 480 max."

"Slug the bores and make chamber casts before you buy components. Finally be sure you are indeed working with a "full-cordite" rifle. Many unknowing or unscrupulous sellers call every British express rifle a "Nitro Express". If the barrels do not show the cordite charge in the proof marks, they are probably made for black powder."

"The correct powder for the nitros is also surprisingly simple. Most who are serious reloaders for the nitros have distilled the selection to one powder: Alliant Reloder 15. You will see and hear references to other powders; IMR-3031 and some of the very slow ones like 4831 have been used. In my experience IMR-3031 has a shrewish temperament in the big cases, demonstrating rapid pressure rises. The slow powders have blown the sides out of more than one set of fine double barrels. No one has a precise answer to "why?". Because it has happened, I treat the slow powders like the standard medical formula, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Reply: "Do not do this!"

"Returning to our chosen fuel, RL-15, its use and perfection was invented by none less than Federal Cartridge for their own .470 Nitro cartridges. It is a mild-mannered, delightful powder that re-creates original ballistics, right across the spectrum from .450-400 to .600, using the same conversion formula. That is, multiply the original cordite charge by 1.19 to substitute RL-15. In almost every instance, caliber and rifle, the velocity, with the correct Woodleigh bullet, will be right in the Kynoch window. (It is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge, just to be on the safe side.)"

"The one compromise with RL-15 is that it takes up less space in the cavernous cases than did the original spaghetti-like cordite. To obtain perfectly crisp ignition, one must add a small ball of Dacron (polyester) fiber filler. Most .40- and .45-caliber rounds want four or five grains, while the .470 and .500 use six or seven grains and the .577 and .600 take seven or eight. Loads without the filler can demonstrate minute, but disconcerting, hangfires. Those with fillers are crisp with uncannily uniform velocities."

.450/.400-3 inch - 60 grs. Cordite - 400-gr. bullet - 2125 fps - 71.4 grs. RL-15
.450/400-3¼ inch - 60 grs. Cordite - 400-gr. bullet - 2150 fps - 71.4 grs. RL-15

[Glen]

Wow!!! Thank you!

[BerdanIII]

You're welcome. Keep us posted on your progress; not many shooters use the old African calibers.

[brian]

see attached.
thx
Brian

[Glen]

Thanks Brian!

[LIMPINGJ]

Glen is your NEI mold a newer one or one made by Walt? Just wondering how the new molds compare in quality to Walt's work.

[Glen]

I bought this one from Walt a number of years ago, when I re-chambered a TC barrel to .405 Winchester. It is a beautifully made mould, and casts outstanding bullets.

I've heard complaints about the quality of new NEI moulds, but the one mould I have from the new NEI (for my 9.3x57), is well-made and casts excellent bullets as well.

[Abert Rim]

Resurrecting this thread, as I have a No. 1 in .450-400 on the way. I may have to have someone cut a nice WFN mold that will cast a 400-grain .411 GC bullet for the thing. I know there are lots of lighter weight and pointed pills out there, and I, too, have looked over the NEI 350-grain #225A. It's very close!

[Nrut]

I size a RCBS .416"-350gr (actually 370grs IIRC) down to .413" for my Ruger #1 in .405 Win.
You might want to do a throat/groove/bore slug before you order a mold..
Or check with Glen..

[Abert Rim]

Looks like I need to scare up a .411 or .412 die for the RCBS lubrisizer -- or check with Lee.

[209jones]

I just acquired 3 different 41cal moulds to try in my #1 for the 3" version of the 450/400ne.
I have a Saeco 740 ".410" 400gr mould, plainbase. It only got to .4095 with wheelweights, hit .4113 with Xtra hard Bleimeister shot I had laying around. Mould seems to be pretty inconsistent though, I'll have to give it another try with a fresh blend and see what size comes out of it.
I also have a .412 LBT WFN-GC , Veral marked it 320gr, casts at .4135 with 1/20, it came out about 322gr on the sort. Added about 4 lbs wheelweights to about 10lbs of the 1/20, still held at the .4135 mark.
Also have an LBT .412-400LFN GC for it. It sorted at 402gr with the wheelweight blend. Both are consistently dropping nice stuff for me. Ran them at 700 and water quenched them. the wheelweight blend came out at BHN12 on the LBT tester. The 1/20 was about bhn5.
I just ran these yesterday, have to wait for an expander from Buffalo, which shud show this coming week, before loading them up. I plan on using some Trailboss and 5744 on these. For now they will have a bit of a blend lube on them, some old remnants of Lyman lube that still isn't completely cleaned out of the 450 with the bulk of it being LBT soft blue. I got .411,.412 and .413 sizers from Buffalo.
I got the 5744 data from Western Powder, just e-mail them and they will send it to you. They have data for 300,350 and 400gr loads.

[Glen]

The load I have settled on for the Ruger #1 .450/400 Nitro Express is the 370 grain NEI .411-350-GC (#225A), sized .412" loaded over 85.0 grains of H4831, sparked with a Federal 215 primer. This combination gives me ~2150 fps and 3 shot cloverleafs at 50 yards.

[209jones]

Liking the sound of that load , Glen. That was the next powder to explore after the 5744, seeing as I have it and IMR4831 and RL19 here anyhow. The one thing I didn't like about the 5744 loads was they leave a lot of space.
I would prefer something up in the 70gr+ range for this cartridge. I've got 4 wks to play with it for now, then a doe tag to blood it on, with a 320 hopefully. Then another month to work on the 400 for a bullwinkle in Nov.:-?