Paper patch in 38-55 Win

[JerryW]

Anyone tried if so what results? Thanks. JerryW

[Buckshot]

Anyone tried if so what results? Thanks. JerryW

Personally haven't done it, and my 38-55 is a M93 Marlin. However the 38-55 was one of the old cartridge that designed for a purpose and that was accurate target shooting. And in the day a lot of them were paper patched. I have a couple articles one titled "Shooting the old ones". It shows a 38-55 with the paper patched bullet practicly sitting on top of the casemouth, or in other words, not really seated in the case.

If done correctly the cartridge is certainy up to the job.

.................Buckshot

[Black Prince]

I did it in a .375 H&H using a Lyman cast bullet designed for the 38-55. I shot squirrels with it that season until I came upon a game warden down in my home state of Mississippi who took umbrage with my "squirrel rifle." He instructed me to take it home for the duration of the squirrel season and he didn't want to see me with it in the woods until deer season opened. Being of a reasonably sound mind at the time, I followed his instructions. It ain't good to pizz off a game warden in Mississippi. They've been known to shoot people who did that.

Come deer season I used that rig to shoot a little 6 point buck through both lungs as he came up out of an old beaver pond broadside. He showed no sign of being hit and took off down the side of the pond. I bolted in another round and made what I thought was going to be a Texas Heart Shot, but the bullet hit him right behind the head instead and took off the skull plate which stopped any additional efforts to run away. I was not happy with the performance so never tried it again. It was just something to do since I'd never done it before. I had that 285 grain bullet loaded down to a velocity of about 1600 FPS. When I loaded it to higher velocity, the accuracy, which was very good, went all to hell and gone.

I've always wanted to try a 38-55 in a BPCR but have been told that it will not knock down the ram at 500 meters with any reliability. What has been you experience with that?

[Nrut]

Black Prince....How hard was that cast boolit you shot that buck with?....reason I ask I'm planning on using my 38-55 with cast for spring bear hunting this year......I'll be using annealed WW at 9 BHN.......thanks for any info .....mic

[KCSO]

Even in the old days the 38-55 didn't hold 55 grains of black unless yo loaded like Buckshot said. You used a bore size paper patch bullet and it bumped up to fill the grooves when you touched off the round. I re lined a Ballard #5 Pacific 38-55 for a friend and we are just starting to try paper patch. We have had good luck with regular cast and are curious. Buffalo Arms has all the stuff you need to make the bullets. Be warned that patching slugs is a PITA if you want to get good uniform bullets. I can wrap about 40to 50 in an hour. As to pushing a 38-5 to over 1600 fps, that is right at what the high velocity loads ran from a 94 and BP velocity was more in the 12 1300 fps range. I will post as the summer goes on and let you know what we find out.

[Black Prince]

KCSO

Looking forward to your progress reports. Sounds like a great project and here's wishing you all the best with it.

Nrut

I don't exactly know what the alloy was in the cast bullets I used because I did this whole project as a wild hair idea at the end of a casting session for a bunch of wad cutter pistol bullets. I had a little more than half a pot (the third pot of the lot cast from a 20 pound pot) of good, clean wheel weight alloy left and I tossed in about four bars of 60 / 40 bar solder (one pound bars) into the wheel weights to get some tin in the bullets. When the metal came up to tempature, I fluxed with marvalux and started casting. I didn't worry about leading due to the paper patch, but I don't think the bullets were particularly soft anyway because there was no sign of any expansion on either wound channels that I could determine. That bullet has a nice big flat nose on it so it should have upset if it had been soft. Even at 1600 FPS, it should have done that because the little buck was probably only 30 yards away when I shot him the first time. The bullet broke a rib coming in and going out. There was a nice clean .375 caliber hole in the middle of the rib going out. I think I could have reloaded that bullet if I could have recovered it. It showed no sign of having deformed at all.

But I also shot a slightly larger buck with that same rifle loaded with a Speer 235 grain jacketed bullet at a velocity of 2800 fps later that same year and it showed no signs of expansion either. So ***? I think the Speer bullet was as hard as a brick and I later read somewhere that Bill Jordan was hunting African plains antelope using that bullet when he and his PH were jumped by a cape buff they didn't see hidden in the bush. Jordan shot completely through the buff broadside with that little Speer 235 grain .375 bullet. So it is plenty hard. He reported however, that it gave good performance on the big antelope and Zebra's. Go figure.

[McLintock]

I'm like Buckshot, I haven't tried it but as he says, it was definitely a common deal with he 38-55. If you go to the sites like Shilohrifle.com and BPCR.net and put paper patch into the search engine it'll bring up lots of entries about paper patching. There's several good books, like Paul Mathews "The Paper Jacket", that give good advice about doing it also. You can get them at sites like BuffaloArms.com.
So far as case capacity with black powder on the 38-55, it's pretty limited. I shoot a '94 with standard 2.080" cases and get about 41-2 gr of Swiss 1.5 and moderate compression in it with a lyman 265 gr 375449 bullet. If the chamber were lenghtened to acept original 2.130 cases it might take 45 gr. My single shot Browning with 2.130 cases gets about 46-48 gr in it with a Lyman 330 gr bullet, which is a pretty standard type bullet; no bore rider or reduced bands. My C. Sharps with a lenghtened chamber to accept .38-55 Basic brass, which is 2.234", gets 50 gr with a HOCH 315 gr, .070 compression and the bullet seated out one grease groove. The same bullet and .250" compression gets 56 gr; I just loaded some like this yesterday and got 56 gr of Swiss 3F in it to try for a ram load. I have a Brooks 330 gr mould that is a bore rider and has a reduced diameter front band so I can set it out 2 grease grooves and it'll probably take 58-9gr maxed out with the basic cases, less with the shorter cases. So a paper patch bullet set like Buckshot was describing would take somewhere in the mid 50's I'd think.
McLintock

[45 2.1]

I've tried 155 gr. to 285 gr., sized to 0.372" in a LEE push thru die, cast of very soft alloy and patched with 9 Lb. onionskin, lubed with Matthews 55% beeswax/45% vaseline on the patch. Shoots fine in several loads in levers and single shots.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Danged if I can find anything other than plain paper in Australia, stationery shops just look at you blankly when you start talking different grades. I'll hve to go to a fancy store in Sydney next time I'm down there.

I owuld have thought that if you were hunting soft skineed game wit paper atched Boolits, you could just use plain lead, because the paper would stop any leading. Am i talking $hit here or what?

[Buckshot]

Danged if I can find anything other than plain paper in Australia, stationery shops just look at you blankly when you start talking different grades. I'll hve to go to a fancy store in Sydney next time I'm down there.

I owuld have thought that if you were hunting soft skineed game wit paper atched Boolits, you could just use plain lead, because the paper would stop any leading. Am i talking $hit here or what?

..............Correct, you can use pure lead boolits and drive them about as fast as you or your rifle can stand without any leading issues.

Any stationary store should have the various weights of paper. Most common is pretty much 12 to 24 lb paper. Quality is another issue entirely as other then common 'Bond' papers for copy machines or printers the demand is small. You CAN use bond to patch with, just do not use any recycled paper. The main issue with bond is that it's to thick (heavy) for most purposes. Although I've used 20 & 24 lb paper to patch up .458" slugs to .472" for use in my MkIV 577-450 Matrini.

As that paper is .004" thick, 4 wraps adds about .014" when dry. That's a sizeable amount even for a 45 caliber slug and for a smaller slug is almost unuseable. The most common best is 9lb paper commonly called "Airmail" or 9 lb Onionskin. A good place to look would also be art supplies for tracing paper, or document supplies for Vellum. A place with drafting supplies is also a source.

I don't know if you have these warehouse places in Australia, like Office Depot or Staples. They carry a fairly wide assortment of stuff. Locally checking both such places they had some neat paper but no 9 lb onionskin. That I have found only in independent type stationary shops. If you ask a manager they may have a source they use that has it available, but that they may not stock. Bear in mind you might have to buy several reams of it to get it. If you ask the recent high school grads they have working the floor, the chances of blank looks are very likely.

.................Buckshot

[45 2.1]

What you want to look for is paper that contains at least 25% rag content and the magic thickness for 9 lb onionskin or equivalent is 0.002" thick. The eraseable kind won't hardly wet and is hard to use also.

[StarMetal]

Funny, in another thread we were talking about Mike Venturino and this paper patching comes up. Well in the latest Shooting Times Mike has an article on patching the 45-70.

Joe

[KCSO]

I have an Ideal #5 manual from 1894 and it talks about paper patching a 38-55. J Francis shot a 2" 200 yard group of 15 consecutive shots to set a record in 189?. He wiped between shots and was shooting a muzzleloaded bullet and a breech seated ctg. Still 2" at 200 yards!

[Four Fingers of Death]

If yu just want to se how they go try Bullshop, he makes them and he is member of this board. Here is a link to his shop;

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/

This is a link to one of the threads where he shows his unique way of paper patching. They are unusual because he puts them through the lubesizer and they endup with a little reserviou of lube inside the patch at the base.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/

Cheers, Mick.

[mazo kid]

Can't remember exactly where I saw it (probably one of the BPCR forums) but a fellow who has worked in the paper business for many years has a great treatise on paper to use. He suggested LENS PAPER as being close to ideal! Emery

[wills]

Brent Danielson is the authority and you can probably find his contact information on his web page.
http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/

His articles

http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html